A few basic questions I have

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CharlieBrown

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I can't seem to find answers to some very basic questions I have, so maybe other noobs such as myself can post their questions here as well.

1. Were fingerprints found on the spoon?

2. Did the Ramseys say that they owned the flashlight? Is it widely accepted that this was the weapon that caused the skull fracture?

3. What about the baseball bat found outside the home? I think I read that Patsy said Burke didn't own an aluminum bat, because they were too expensive. (wtf? Millionaires can't afford a $30 aluminum bat?)

4. The handwriting: some sites I have read say that experts concluded that Patsy did write the note, some say she didn't, and some say it's inconclusive. So which is it? Based on your research, is there any way to break it down into percentages as to the % of experts who say she is the author, vs. the % who say she isn't?

5. Swiss Army knife: is it true that a Swiss Army knife was found next to the body? Was it Burke's knife? Was it checked for fingerprints?

6. The garrote: Maybe there isn't a simple answer to this, but is it generally accepted that she was alive while being strangled? I read somewhere that the lack of blood in the head wound suggested that she was strangled before the blow to the head. What are your opinions/conclusions based on your research?

7. The practice note: Was this ever found? If not, how do they know a practice note was written?

Thanks for your help. I might post some more questions I have later on.
 
1) Not that I know of.

2) They said that they didn't see it before that night. And the majority that I can find think it is. Werner Spitz, I know does.

3)No idea.

4) All taken together, she falls into the middle, with a bit more to the "did" side. As for percentages, no idea. But take this into consideration: if she didn't write it, there's no reason AT ALL for the handwriting to resemble Patsy's in any fashion, way shape or form and that any resemblance at all is suspect, to say the least!

5) I don't know about the body, but it WAS Burke's.

6) Pretty much EVERYONE agrees she was alive when strangled.

I read somewhere that the lack of blood in the head wound suggested that she was strangled before the blow to the head. What are your opinions/conclusions based on your research?
Click to expand...

The majority of pathologists say that she was hit anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour before she was strangled. Drs. Werner Spitz, Tom Henry, Henry Lee, and Ron Wright all concluded the head blow came first. And there wouldn't have to be much blood:

Kerry Brega, chief neurologist at Denver Health Medical Center, said it is not uncommon for people with skull fractures to not have any bleeding. "We see a lot of people with skull fractures without bleeds in the brain, and they didn't all get strangled on the way in," she said. "So it is actually possible to get a skull fracture without getting an underlying bleed in the brain."

7) There were imprints of a pen in the paper from the practice note, is how we know.
 
Thanks a lot SuperDave!! :)


Something else I wanted to mention:

I've seen people argue "why would an intruder write a ransom note, and then just leave the body?". IF it was an intruder who had it in for JR, what better way to totally screw with his head. The killer could leave a note, in hopes that they wouldn't do a thorough search of the house and the body would not be found until much later. Imagine the horror a parent would face if they were to discover their child's body in the basement weeks, or even months later.
 
SuperDave said:
7) There were imprints of a pen in the paper from the practice note, is how we know.
Click to expand...

Were they able to decipher any of the wording from the imprints? Was the practice note written with something other than a Sharpie (which I believe the ransom note was written with?). I wouldn't think a Sharpie would leave much of an imprint in the pad, unless it was ink bleed-through.

Thanks again SuperDave
 
Warsaw said:
Were they able to decipher any of the wording from the imprints? Was the practice note written with something other than a Sharpie (which I believe the ransom note was written with?). I wouldn't think a Sharpie would leave much of an imprint in the pad, unless it was ink bleed-through.

Thanks again SuperDave
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. A fine point sharpie would make an imprint similar to a ball point or gel point.

As far as the flashlight- while the Rs said THAT one wasn't theirs, they did admit to owning one just like it....right. Of course, some could argue that this seems like a PERFECT reason to wipe off the flashlight AND the batteries. Because if their prints were ON the batteries, then it wouldn't be a flashlight LIKE the one they owned, it would BE the one they owned. And they have never said what happened to the one they owned, nor did they report it missing.
 
Warsaw said:
Thanks a lot SuperDave!! :)


Something else I wanted to mention:

I've seen people argue "why would an intruder write a ransom note, and then just leave the body?". IF it was an intruder who had it in for JR, what better way to totally screw with his head. The killer could leave a note, in hopes that they wouldn't do a thorough search of the house and the body would not be found until much later. Imagine the horror a parent would face if they were to discover their child's body in the basement weeks, or even months later.
Click to expand...

I don't know how to say "you're most welcome" in Polish! LOL

I see what you're saying, but I don't buy it. (So much else for sale, you know!

Were they able to decipher any of the wording from the imprints?
Click to expand...

Yep.

Was the practice note written with something other than a Sharpie (which I believe the ransom note was written with?). I wouldn't think a Sharpie would leave much of an imprint in the pad, unless it was ink bleed-through.
Click to expand...

Some of it was bleedthrough, but the Sharpie DID leave imprints. Don't forget how hard the person might have been pressing (stress and all that, you know?)
 
Warsaw said:
Thanks a lot SuperDave!! :)


Something else I wanted to mention:

I've seen people argue "why would an intruder write a ransom note, and then just leave the body?". IF it was an intruder who had it in for JR, what better way to totally screw with his head. The killer could leave a note, in hopes that they wouldn't do a thorough search of the house and the body would not be found until much later. Imagine the horror a parent would face if they were to discover their child's body in the basement weeks, or even months later.
Click to expand...

But would a intruder lay it on the steps before taking the child to the basement? Would he risk going back upstairs to leave it after he murdered her?

I find both highly unlikely for obvious reasons.
 
Linda7NJ said:
But would a intruder lay it on the steps before taking the child to the basement? Would he risk going back upstairs to leave it after he murdered her?

I find both highly unlikely for obvious reasons.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

However, who knows what goes through the mind of a total psychopath? (statement can work for both theories, haha)
 
Warsaw said:
6. The garrote: Maybe there isn't a simple answer to this, but is it generally accepted that she was alive while being strangled? I read somewhere that the lack of blood in the head wound suggested that she was strangled before the blow to the head. What are your opinions/conclusions based on your research?
Click to expand...

Wecht has an interesting theory that the perp may have shut off her vagus nerve during the strangulation (erotic asphyxiation), believed her to be beyond resuscitation, and then used the head blow to finish her off. He made much of the lack of intracranial bleeding meaning flow had already been shut off to the head...vagus nerve compression would have accomplished that.
 
probably mentioned a million times before but in case it was only mentioned half a million times

does anyone get the impression that if the child was hit by one of the parents because of the bed wetting that night and was injured BUT would have survived if medical attention was given

but the parent(s) didnt want the stigma of being a child beater because they thought that JonBenet might let it be known that mommy or daddy hit her.



seems to me the family was a little weird, i mean the pagent stuff is enough to freak me out with just that..the costumes and dresses and YUCK etc etc etc

really freaks me out :eek:
 
was there any blood found in the bedroom ? splatter of any type ?

nothing ???
 
At least one expert felt that there wasn't enough brain swelling for the hit on the head to have happened first.

Others can answer better than me, but there wasn't any blood found in the bedroom. I wondered if there was urine on the bed and can't remember what was said about that, but did read last night that urine was found outside the basement room in the little hall leading there.
 
The fact that John leaves the flashlight out of his theory in DOI makes me all the more suspect that it was used for the head injury.
He simply says an intruder slammed her head against the floor,which doesn't seem likely,from the angle of the head injury.
Further adding to that being the likely weapon is the fact it was found on the bar,wiped off,inside and out,with the R's claiming they didn't recognize it,yet but owned one just like it.
And every time I see that punched out part of her skull in the autopsy pic,to me it seems the flashlight would be more likely to cause that than being slammed against something.
 
The flashlight was thought to be theirs but the Ramseys did not say it was theirs. As with every question Patsy answered she left it open to go either way. As in when shown a photo of something she owned she would say it "looks like" this or that but would say she did not remember if it was.
No prints were found on the flashlight, even the batteries.
Patsy did say an aluminum baseball bat was too expensive.
A knife thought to be Burkes was in the basement. Never heard of it having rope fibers on it or anything to connect it with the crime. The housekeeper did say she had hid it because Burke kept whittling in the house. IIRC She had placed it above the washer or dryer in a cabinette. Anyone know for sure?
 
robotdog said:
probably mentioned a million times before but in case it was only mentioned half a million times

does anyone get the impression that if the child was hit by one of the parents because of the bed wetting that night and was injured BUT would have survived if medical attention was given

but the parent(s) didnt want the stigma of being a child beater because they thought that JonBenet might let it be known that mommy or daddy hit her.
Click to expand...

The skull fracture would have been fatal regardless of medical treatment. It just was not her immediate cause of death because of the strangulation.
 
there is something absolutely incredible going on in the 1998 interview
with patsy ramsey

pictures that are different that are in her camera versus the police camera

cleaning stuff where it shouldnt be

a plastic container that might have pineapple in it


WHOOOOOO... its unreal
 
becklynn said:
The flashlight was thought to be theirs but the Ramseys did not say it was theirs. As with every question Patsy answered she left it open to go either way. As in when shown a photo of something she owned she would say it "looks like" this or that but would say she did not remember if it was.
No prints were found on the flashlight, even the batteries.
Patsy did say an aluminum baseball bat was too expensive.
A knife thought to be Burkes was in the basement. Never heard of it having rope fibers on it or anything to connect it with the crime. The housekeeper did say she had hid it because Burke kept whittling in the house. IIRC She had placed it above the washer or dryer in a cabinette. Anyone know for sure?
Click to expand...

yes,that's what she said she did with it.it would indeed be interesting to know if it had fibers on it.but that's why police were removed from the case,and all evidence is in a warehouse,untested.
 
SuperDave said:
5) I don't know about the body, but it WAS Burke's.
Click to expand...
This could be off topic, but I just got to comment on that. There were many items found at the crime scene that belonged to Patsy and when you said the the knife was Burke's, that brings up an interesting can of worms, that Wendy Murphy wrote about in her book "And Justice For Some" which I was reading over today. The chapter was on cross finger pointing when there are two suspicious people suspected of a crime, they can both point the finger at each other, and it is hard for investigators and prosecutors to find out the truth. She uses the Ramsey case as an example, of how SHE THINKS John Ramsey murdered JonBenet, that he made Patsy help him out, so that she would seem suspicious as well. So he could point the finger at her, if he ever goes to trial, or vise versa.

I've always thought that the ransom note proved the crime scene was staged, along with the blow to head, post mortem. John Ramsey could have put the knife at the scene, so people would be suspicious of Bruke as well.

There is evidence pointing to Patsy, the knife at the scene belongs to his son, and there are people who think that Patsy did it, people who think John Ramsey did it, and some think an intruder did it.

So whoever murdered her, staged the crime scene where a bunch of fingers would be pointing in all different directions.
 
does anyone get the impression that if the child was hit by one of the parents because of the bed wetting that night and was injured BUT would have survived if medical attention was given
Click to expand...

From what I can gather, it was possible, but unlikely. Besides, even if she had lived, what kind of life would she have lived. I mean, I don't think Patsy was too keyed up over the idea of going from being the mom of a pageant princess to having to feed her with a spoon the rest of her life. That may sound cruel of me, but it's a cruel world, and anyone who says different is trying to sell you something.

but the parent(s) didnt want the stigma of being a child beater because they thought that JonBenet might let it be known that mommy or daddy hit her.
Click to expand...

You're not the first to think that.

Others can answer better than me, but there wasn't any blood found in the bedroom. I wondered if there was urine on the bed and can't remember what was said about that, but did read last night that urine was found outside the basement room in the little hall leading there.
Click to expand...

Right, no blood in the bedroom. Mike Kane said that the sheets tested positive for creatine, an important ingredient in urine, but that's all. But there was one other thing. Has anyone seen the picture of JB's bed from that morning? When I was six, I never left a bed that neat. I'm not the only one who wonders if that bed was re-made that night...

This could be off topic, but I just got to comment on that. There were many items found at the crime scene that belonged to Patsy and when you said the the knife was Burke's, that brings up an interesting can of worms, that Wendy Murphy wrote about in her book "And Justice For Some" which I was reading over today. The chapter was on cross finger pointing when there are two suspicious people suspected of a crime, they can both point the finger at each other, and it is hard for investigators and prosecutors to find out the truth.
Click to expand...

I have that book. And that's what I've been saying for a LONG time. See, and you can ask Wendy this question, when something like this happens, the police will usually arrest both parents and put them in separate holding cells to see which one will throw the other under the bus. That's how they got Hedda Nusbaum to roll on Joel Steinberg. The Boulder Police WANTED to do that in this case, but that bleeding-heart Great Society leftover Alex Hunter wouldn't go for it.

She uses the Ramsey case as an example, of how SHE THINKS John Ramsey murdered JonBenet, that he made Patsy help him out, so that she would seem suspicious as well. So he could point the finger at her, if he ever goes to trial, or vise versa.
Click to expand...

it's a classic tactic.
 
becklynn said:
The flashlight was thought to be theirs but the Ramseys did not say it was theirs. As with every question Patsy answered she left it open to go either way. As in when shown a photo of something she owned she would say it "looks like" this or that but would say she did not remember if it was.
No prints were found on the flashlight, even the batteries.
Patsy did say an aluminum baseball bat was too expensive.
A knife thought to be Burkes was in the basement. Never heard of it having rope fibers on it or anything to connect it with the crime. The housekeeper did say she had hid it because Burke kept whittling in the house. IIRC She had placed it above the washer or dryer in a cabinette. Anyone know for sure?
Click to expand...


Yes, that's where I remember the housekeeper hid the knife. She said Burke whittled all over the house & left shavings all over the floor.

The flashlight: IIRC, Patsy later claimed it was the COLOR of the flashlight that threw her off so she wasn't 'sure' it belonged to them.

This explanation for her immediate denial must have become necessary after investigators learned that Burke gave that flashlight to John as a Xmas present. It was usually stored in a drawer in the hallway, I think... not in the kitchen.
 
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