Courageous but impractical action regarding Darfur

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believe09

believe09

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first -- im shocked by the apathy of the american people towards darfur. i remember when it was first happening -- i NEVER saw it on the news. then i went to germany, and they had darfur updates every few days!!! that was years ago. and apparently, whenever the u.s. news does try to show something with darfur, people change the channel.

second --
are you against the indictment?
im very much for it. i've been doing darfur activism for years and have done a LOT of research on it. the situation's VERY grim.

not too mention -- 60+ years ago we promised never again. after the holocaust , the world (with the US as ringleaders) promised NEVER AGAIN would we stand by and watch another genocide go on, another ethnic cleansing. we've stood by and let it happen too many times. and what is going on in darfur is so sickening. this must be stopped !!!!
 
It may seem impractical, but I am glad someone is saying/doing something--anything.
Will there be repercussions? Yes, undoubtedly. IMHO it is worth the risk. The UN and other groups are already having their hands tied when it comes to aid. The JJW have made it incredibly dangerous in Darfur and surrounding countries.
I'm concerned about one of the Darfurian refugee camps in Chad. Due to governmental issues now, they are getting very little in foreign aid. The camp was built to hold 5,000; as of last summer it had over 15,000.
 
ttrachel04 said:
first -- im shocked by the apathy of the american people towards darfur. i remember when it was first happening -- i NEVER saw it on the news. then i went to germany, and they had darfur updates every few days!!! that was years ago. and apparently, whenever the u.s. news does try to show something with darfur, people change the channel.

second --
are you against the indictment?
im very much for it. i've been doing darfur activism for years and have done a LOT of research on it. the situation's VERY grim.

not too mention -- 60+ years ago we promised never again. after the holocaust , the world (with the US as ringleaders) promised NEVER AGAIN would we stand by and watch another genocide go on, another ethnic cleansing. we've stood by and let it happen too many times. and what is going on in darfur is so sickening. this must be stopped !!!!
Click to expand...

My bold and italics-am I against it? I do not think it is that simple...I think that it is tilting at windmills in a way-simply because I am not sure it will draw the international pressure the UN is hoping for...I may be very wrong. It might make the perp a prisoner in his own country or at least prevented from traveling to any country that should or would enforce the indictment...again we will see. My fear is that it will cause an explosion of crimes against those who are already being wiped off the face of the earth, and that the Sudanese will then bar any UN or Red Cross personnel from assisting anyone.

Perhaps that in and of itself will cause people to finally take some notice-but I would hate to think of innocents being made to pay the price for political manoeverings...I have also researched and worked for this cause for years. It was clear what was going to happen very early on-and we in the Western world let it happen anyway. Which is why we must compel those in power to stop it. NOW.
 
snip
A lot has happened since I wrote to you last week.
On Monday the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court (ICC) issued formal charges against Sudan's President Omar al-Bashir for genocide.
How Bashir will respond is unclear. His record suggests that he could take his vengeance out on Darfuris.
If that danger weren't enough, a BBC report this week revealed evidence suggesting that China, one of the Security Council's permanent five members, has been providing the weapons used to carry out the genocide.1
It's never been clearer that the U.N. Security Council needs a comprehensive plan for Darfur. And its leaders need the political will to implement it.
snip
I underlined what I think one of the key issues is-this is not a surprise, but by all means let's have the President of the most powerful country in the free world take a trip to China to help open the Olympic games....ah well...

 
ttrachel04 said:
first -- im shocked by the apathy of the american people towards darfur. i remember when it was first happening -- i NEVER saw it on the news. then i went to germany, and they had darfur updates every few days!!! that was years ago. and apparently, whenever the u.s. news does try to show something with darfur, people change the channel.
Click to expand...

So, is Germany doing anything about it or do they just show it on the news everyday so they can act like they care more than anyone else?
 
Jeana (DP) said:
So, is Germany doing anything about it or do they just show it on the news everyday so they can act like they care more than anyone else?
Click to expand...

:fight:

You have a unique ability to get directly to the bottom line faster than anyone I have ever read on here.

That being said, I am a fan of any place that has the balls to show the world in an unedited fashion-I find watching the BBC news much less, uh, paternalistic shall we say, then most of the American Media. And it comes on late, late where I am so I don't have to worry about the kids seeing it.
 
L L & S said:
IMO, that's a very good thing Jeana. It's one of the reasons I enjoy reading your posts.
Click to expand...

Well I'd love to be able to convince myself its because of my wit, but the real reason is that I just can't type worth a darn.:)
 
ttrachel04 said:
first -- im shocked by the apathy of the american people towards darfur. i remember when it was first happening -- i NEVER saw it on the news. then i went to germany, and they had darfur updates every few days!!! that was years ago. and apparently, whenever the u.s. news does try to show something with darfur, people change the channel.
Click to expand...


I tried to find out for myself why Americans are so apathethic about what's going on in Darfur and why Germans are so much better than we are about this issue. This is what I found (and it was written by a German IN GERMANY, so I'd like to think this person knows of which he writes:


Why do Americans care about the genocide in Darfur, while Germans don’t? Because Americans are not afraid to tell good and evil apart.

On the Global Day for Darfur last Sunday, 120 demonstrators made it to the streets of Berlin. This demonstration was all that happened in Germany. Vigils and demonstrations In the United States drew thousands of participants, from the big rallies in San Francisco, New York and Washington to the small events in hundreds of cities.

We Germans can be lazy when it comes to supporting those in need, and quick to attack those who are most vulnerable. It is already a national sport here to criticize Americans for seeing things “only in black and white.” This may often be true, but the case of Darfur reveals that there are instances where balanced judgement is impossible.


That article continues, but I saw the following note written in response to the article, which was even more honest:

I think that you are absolutely right regarding your judgement on Darfur. However, I think that we should be realistic: does Germany including the majority of Germans have the will to put their sons and daughters in harms way in order to end the conflict? Or do we want to spend millions of Euros in that conflict? Is there a realistic chance of solving it at a modest price? I guess the answer is no! The truth is that as long as it does not affect us directly, yes, perhaps we feel bad when we hear about the things that are happening there, but that still does not mean that we have the conviction and determince to actually change something on the ground. If the 90s taught us and the USA anything, then this is that we should not intervene without conviction. The result would be that there would not be ANY support any longer among our population to get involved ANYwhere. Germany is not yet ready to take its "responsibility to protect", to suffer major casualties for humanitarian reasons. There are still painfull discussions ahead of us in the years to come. Yugoslavia was a first step in the right direction, but we still have to learn a lot. And yes, we can learn that from the US, Canada and its courageous populations.


http://www.atlantic-community.org/index/Open_Think_Tank_Article/Darfur:_Germans_Should_Get_Involved
 
Jeana (DP) said:
I tried to find out for myself why Americans are so apathethic about what's going on in Darfur and why Germans are so much better than we are about this issue. This is what I found (and it was written by a German IN GERMANY, so I'd like to think this person knows of which he writes:


Why do Americans care about the genocide in Darfur, while Germans don’t? Because Americans are not afraid to tell good and evil apart.

On the Global Day for Darfur last Sunday, 120 demonstrators made it to the streets of Berlin. This demonstration was all that happened in Germany. Vigils and demonstrations In the United States drew thousands of participants, from the big rallies in San Francisco, New York and Washington to the small events in hundreds of cities.

We Germans can be lazy when it comes to supporting those in need, and quick to attack those who are most vulnerable. It is already a national sport here to criticize Americans for seeing things “only in black and white.” This may often be true, but the case of Darfur reveals that there are instances where balanced judgement is impossible.


That article continues, but I saw the following note written in response to the article, which was even more honest:

I think that you are absolutely right regarding your judgement on Darfur. However, I think that we should be realistic: does Germany including the majority of Germans have the will to put their sons and daughters in harms way in order to end the conflict? Or do we want to spend millions of Euros in that conflict? Is there a realistic chance of solving it at a modest price? I guess the answer is no! The truth is that as long as it does not affect us directly, yes, perhaps we feel bad when we hear about the things that are happening there, but that still does not mean that we have the conviction and determince to actually change something on the ground. If the 90s taught us and the USA anything, then this is that we should not intervene without conviction. The result would be that there would not be ANY support any longer among our population to get involved ANYwhere. Germany is not yet ready to take its "responsibility to protect", to suffer major casualties for humanitarian reasons. There are still painfull discussions ahead of us in the years to come. Yugoslavia was a first step in the right direction, but we still have to learn a lot. And yes, we can learn that from the US, Canada and its courageous populations.


http://www.atlantic-community.org/index/Open_Think_Tank_Article/Darfur:_Germans_Should_Get_Involved
Click to expand...

I do think that this is an honest opinion regarding apathy in general-IMO the fact that the conflict is in Africa also increases the likelihood of an apathetic response-there is not much in the way of world changing value in Sudan such that we would consider spilling American blood....I am talking about natural resources etc...the value of the people is of course without measure. The right thing to do is to stop/prevent any further genocide from occurring-but like our dealings with Baby Doc and Charles Taylor...it ain't gonna happen the way I wish it would.

Did you all know that the parents of children as young as two send their children out of the bush and the camps at night for a 10 mile walk to populated areas so that they are not targeted in janjiweed (sp) sweeps during the night. Can you imagine? Look around you at the young ones in your life...imagine having them walk 10 miles every night or more so that they could live another day, another week...so that they are not killed, mutilated or gang raped.
 
believe09 said:
I do think that this is an honest opinion regarding apathy in general-IMO the fact that the conflict is in Africa also increases the likelihood of an apathetic response-there is not much in the way of world changing value in Sudan such that we would consider spilling American blood....I am talking about natural resources etc...the value of the people is of course without measure. The right thing to do is to stop/prevent any further genocide from occurring-but like our dealings with Baby Doc and Charles Taylor...it ain't gonna happen the way I wish it would.

Did you all know that the parents of children as young as two send their children out of the bush and the camps at night for a 10 mile walk to populated areas so that they are not targeted in janjiweed (sp) sweeps during the night. Can you imagine? Look around you at the young ones in your life...imagine having them walk 10 miles every night or more so that they could live another day, another week...so that they are not killed, mutilated or gang raped.
Click to expand...

I think its a nightmare. I can't imagine it. I honestly can't. Being that American blood is being spilled in too many places at the moment, and being that I'm getting a little sick and tired of hearing the rest of the world tell us that America needs to stay out of the world's business, I'm not sure what Americans can do about it. There are horrible things in the world done every day, but America isn't the world police. Its sad and horrible to say it, but its just the facts. We can't fix everything. I think its arrogant to think we can.
 
Jeana (DP) said:
I think its a nightmare. I can't imagine it. I honestly can't. Being that American blood is being spilled in too many places at the moment, and being that I'm getting a little sick and tired of hearing the rest of the world tell us that America needs to stay out of the world's business, I'm not sure what Americans can do about it. There are horrible things in the world done every day, but America isn't the world police. Its sad and horrible to say it, but its just the facts. We can't fix everything. I think its arrogant to think we can.
Click to expand...

Agreed to a certain extent-but let's get some bang for our buck then. Seeing as how China is possibly supplying the militia with their weapons, I am thinking that some applied pressure could dry up that source and then what kind of chance would this country have against a small to moderate amount of fire-power we provide?? Seriously? You can't tell me that if we positioned an aircraft carrier, a nuclear sub and a few destroyers in the area that the genocide would not come to a halt. When Bashir started the slaughter at the beginning of our war with Iraq, he intended on keeping the juggernaut going as long as the West was occupied with the "war on terror." He said as much. WTH-can we not prove him wrong by showing him not only were we paying attention, but we will not allow the wholesale slaughter of innocents while we have a chance to say, "Not on our watch." JMO.
 
believe09 said:
Agreed to a certain extent-but let's get some bang for our buck then. Seeing as how China is possibly supplying the militia with their weapons, I am thinking that some applied pressure could dry up that source and then what kind of chance would this country have against a small to moderate amount of fire-power we provide?? Seriously? You can't tell me that if we positioned an aircraft carrier, a nuclear sub and a few destroyers in the area that the genocide would not come to a halt. When Bashir started the slaughter at the beginning of our war with Iraq, he intended on keeping the juggernaut going as long as the West was occupied with the "war on terror." He said as much. WTH-can we not prove him wrong by showing him not only were we paying attention, but we will not allow the wholesale slaughter of innocents while we have a chance to say, "Not on our watch." JMO.
Click to expand...

Its not our watch. That's just it. We're not on watch over the entire world.
 
Jeana (DP) said:
Its not our watch. That's just it. We're not on watch over the entire world.
Click to expand...

Agree completely. I think the burden (yes, burden) for the U.S is that many seek the U.S. to repair or fix other countries. Should the U.S. be part of it? Yes. But, we cannot take this on all by ourselves. It's simply not possible nor should it be. My frustration is I truly want our country to do what they can, but no other country seems to really step in as the U.S. is expected to. That is wrong on every level.

My very basic opinion without going into it too deep.....It's late here. :)
 
OrdinaryLife said:
Agree completely. I think the burden (yes, burden) for the U.S is that many seek the U.S. to repair or fix other countries. Should the U.S. be part of it? Yes. But, we cannot take this on all by ourselves. It's simply not possible nor should it be. My frustration is I truly want our country to do what they can, but no other country seems to really step in as the U.S. is expected to. That is wrong on every level.

My very basic opinion without going into it too deep.....It's late here. :)
Click to expand...

Oh, I am thinking we could inspire a coalition-perhaps one that would be larger than Spain and Poland.:rolleyes:

Even those apathetic Germans might get behind this one. And I understand those that feel it ain't our grievance, but I respectfully disagree. Like it or not, we are a global community and if we continue to let monsterous acts like this one go unchecked, then along with it comes the decline of what makes us glorious thinking, soulful human beings. This is no different than continuing on your way while witnessing a crime in progress. You may think and believe that you are not affected by doing so-but it chips away at you...the slippery slope starts and you wonder why you should defend the downtrodden at all, since it is not your watch. I am not being dramatic-it is the truth. The feeling that it isn't our fight is just a bandaid on a boo-boo of epic proportions. Again JMO.

Peace to all.
 
OrdinaryLife said:
My frustration is I truly want our country to do what they can, but no other country seems to really step in as the U.S. is expected to. That is wrong on every level.
Click to expand...

OrdinaryLife, a lot of other countries may want to step in but don't have the wealth, power or resources of a large country like the US. And don't forget - the US demands other countries 'step in' on occasions in situations that have nothing to do with their interests. I remember the debate in Australia that followed Bush's "Your with us or against us" statement about the war on terror. 911 had nothing to do with Australia but some people feared that not participating would incur US wrath. I realise I may cop flak for this but it is unfair to imply that the rest of the world sits on its hands but demands the US alone must step in.
 
Jeana (DP) said:
So, is Germany doing anything about it or do they just show it on the news everyday so they can act like they care more than anyone else?
Click to expand...

i don't know, like i said, it was four years ago. i think they were doing letter writing campaigns back then.

but at that point, i would bring it up to people in the u.s. and no one even knew about it. even some of my political science professors were oblivious and didn't care too much !!! (remember, this was four years ago. that's obviously changed.)
 
Jeana (DP) said:
I tried to find out for myself why Americans are so apathethic about what's going on in Darfur and why Germans are so much better than we are about this issue. This is what I found (and it was written by a German IN GERMANY, so I'd like to think this person knows of which he writes:


Why do Americans care about the genocide in Darfur, while Germans don’t? Because Americans are not afraid to tell good and evil apart.

On the Global Day for Darfur last Sunday, 120 demonstrators made it to the streets of Berlin. This demonstration was all that happened in Germany. Vigils and demonstrations In the United States drew thousands of participants, from the big rallies in San Francisco, New York and Washington to the small events in hundreds of cities.

We Germans can be lazy when it comes to supporting those in need, and quick to attack those who are most vulnerable. It is already a national sport here to criticize Americans for seeing things “only in black and white.” This may often be true, but the case of Darfur reveals that there are instances where balanced judgement is impossible.


That article continues, but I saw the following note written in response to the article, which was even more honest:

I think that you are absolutely right regarding your judgement on Darfur. However, I think that we should be realistic: does Germany including the majority of Germans have the will to put their sons and daughters in harms way in order to end the conflict? Or do we want to spend millions of Euros in that conflict? Is there a realistic chance of solving it at a modest price? I guess the answer is no! The truth is that as long as it does not affect us directly, yes, perhaps we feel bad when we hear about the things that are happening there, but that still does not mean that we have the conviction and determince to actually change something on the ground. If the 90s taught us and the USA anything, then this is that we should not intervene without conviction. The result would be that there would not be ANY support any longer among our population to get involved ANYwhere. Germany is not yet ready to take its "responsibility to protect", to suffer major casualties for humanitarian reasons. There are still painfull discussions ahead of us in the years to come. Yugoslavia was a first step in the right direction, but we still have to learn a lot. And yes, we can learn that from the US, Canada and its courageous populations.


http://www.atlantic-community.org/index/Open_Think_Tank_Article/Darfur:_Germans_Should_Get_Involved
Click to expand...



i hope i don't sound anti-american ... because i'm NOT. and i'm not saying that germany is helping us either. nor am i even talking about EITHER government (ours or germany's.) im talking about the PEOPLE. and the media.

but at least germany -- and europe in general im guessing, as i saw this on german news and BBC news -- was acknowledging these things going on in the world.

ask CNN. for a period of time they tried to focus on more international stories. bring awareness to darfur and other things. what happened? ratings lowered. people tuned out. that's what Anderson Cooper told my school when asked why they didn't air more stories about Darfur. RATINGS. They tried, ratings lowered, they stopped. That was last year, maybe it's picked up in the past year.

i also do want to make it clear that i'm not saying that our government has not done anything. they've probably done the most. President Bush and Senator Biden (amongst others) worked hard to raise awareness and suggest plans of action as well and try to get the UN to move their butts.

what im talking about is the general public paying attention to these issues. no doubt our government takes the most action. but a lot of people in our country are apathetic -- and tune out when this stuff is brought to our attention. hopefully it's turning around now. but in the past, that is what i've observed.
 
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