Kidnaping Gone Bad

Maikai · Jun 6, 2004

Why is this motive so hard to believe? There's several reasons to think this crime was as it appears to be. An attempted kidnapping that went bad, because the perps were amatuers. We have:

*The note
*Several accessible ways into the home, with the most obvious the broken basement window
*Evidence that JBR was subdued and controlled
*Recent publicity in the newspaper that JR was a billionaire (not true, but that was the impression)
*A trophy-type child, who was touted in early articles as a former Little Miss Colorado. There would have been plenty of evidence of this in the house.

Once the idea was planted, the rest falls in place. The hastily constructed garrote could have been done as a form of control....there could have been more than one, and one bailed out early, leaving one with a struggling child--and in too deep to get out, if the perp was in a state of panic. If one, the same scenario---things had gotten out of hand, and he didn't know how to get out of it. The two-perp scenario makes sense to me because two together may do what one alone wouldn't have the nerve to--they would feed off of each other.

Jayelles · Jun 6, 2004

And why didn't they just take her body and try and get the money anyway?

Why did they write three pages of a ransom note expressing their respect for John Ramsey and showing off their knowledge of movie lines?

And if they simply panicked and fled, why hide the body and not the ransom note too?

Barbara · Jun 6, 2004

Maikai said:
Why is this motive so hard to believe? There's several reasons to think this crime was as it appears to be. An attempted kidnapping that went bad, because the perps were amatuers. We have:

*The note

Written by Patsy Ramsey IMO and if it was a kidnapping gone bad, why leave it at all? Why give authorities the possibility of tracing the handwriting when supposedly he took other "evidence" with him. Why leave that?

*Several accessible ways into the home, with the most obvious the broken basement window

John admittedly tampered with the window, closing it, according to him and having broken it himself earlier when locked out of the house and going through it himself. AND...no evidence left. It was winter. Would this perp not be wearing a jacket, etc? Lou Smit's demonstration proved that it would be very difficult to get in and not leave something. And let's not forget the undisturbed spider web.

*Evidence that JBR was subdued and controlled

What evidence? If you are referring to a stun gun, that has not been proven but speculated. Of course she was controlled, she was a little six year old girl. Doesn't take much

*Recent publicity in the newspaper that JR was a billionaire (not true, but that was the impression)

And they only asked for $118K?

*A trophy-type child, who was touted in early articles as a former Little Miss Colorado. There would have been plenty of evidence of this in the house.

So?

Once the idea was planted, the rest falls in place. The hastily constructed garrote could have been done as a form of control....there could have been more than one, and one bailed out early, leaving one with a struggling child--and in too deep to get out, if the perp was in a state of panic.

Yet he took the time to take "other" things with him in this state of "panic"?

If one, the same scenario---things had gotten out of hand, and he didn't know how to get out of it. The two-perp scenario makes sense to me because two together may do what one alone wouldn't have the nerve to--they would feed off of each other

Two perps? With no evidence left behind? Nonsense!

The RST explanations are contradictory to each other and insist on having things "both ways".

Maikai · Jun 6, 2004

Jayelles said:
And why didn't they just take her body and try and get the money anyway?

Why did they write three pages of a ransom note expressing their respect for John Ramsey and showing off their knowledge of movie lines?

And if they simply panicked and fled, why hide the body and not the ransom note too?

If they couldn't plan a legitimate kidnapping, then the murder may not have been intentional, and they cut the plans short. He may not have wanted to risk seen carrying a dead body around, and may have thought they needed her alive, to prove they had her....or if one found himself alone, with the other one bailing out early, he'd have no reason to continue the plan.

Why does any writer write the way they do? Planning the note beforehand could have been part of the excitement...and they may have felt the note would do the trick---if the Ramseys didn't call the police, it would be easy to get the money out of them. It's a long rambling note, with the first 2/3's at least showing some thought beforehand, IMO. The taunting and sarcastic last part seems more adlibbed.

Barbara · Jun 6, 2004

Maikai said:
If they couldn't plan a legitimate kidnapping, then the murder may not have been intentional, and they cut the plans short. He may not have wanted to risk seen carrying a dead body around, and may have thought they needed her alive, to prove they had her....or if one found himself alone, with the other one bailing out early, he'd have no reason to continue the plan.

Why does any writer write the way they do? Planning the note beforehand could have been part of the excitement...and they may have felt the note would do the trick---if the Ramseys didn't call the police, it would be easy to get the money out of them. It's a long rambling note, with the first 2/3's at least showing some thought beforehand, IMO. The taunting and sarcastic last part seems more adlibbed.

:waitasec:
So now it's THEY? So you are saying that THEY were watching the house and knew the Ramseys called the police, therefore gave up on getting the money????

Good thing they are imaginary or else if they really knew that, they might have beheaded her as promised in THEIR note.

You still haven't explained why thinking John was a billionaire, they only asked for $118,000?

You still haven't explained why in THEIR panic, they remembered to take the tape, etc. that is unaccounted for.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Britt · Jun 6, 2004

Maikai said:
Why is this motive so hard to believe? There's several reasons to think this crime was as it appears to be. An attempted kidnapping that went bad, because the perps were amatuers.

What about the sexual assault? Which motive is the real motive?

Were they stupid amateurs? Did they just forget they'd written the note? If they were so stupid, how did they cleverly manage not to leave any evidence? And why cleverly leave no evidence yet "forget" the two hugest pieces of evidence - the body and the note?

So....we have two amateur criminals bumbling their way through a variety of crimes in a stranger's home on Christmas night, spending hours in the home (as they wait for the family to return, then wait for the family to prepare for and go to bed, then fall asleep) yet leaving no physical evidence -- no fingerprints, no DNA, no hair, no noise -- and volunteering a three-page handwriting sample and leaving behind the collateral.

And why would an intruder need to, or bother to, stage the crime scene?

The staging:
1. blocking the train room door with the chair after entering the house through the train room window
2. a ransom-for-money note, but a sexually assaulted victim
3. a useless piece of postmortem duct tape... (in any case, try the tape yourself and see how "subdued" you are)
4. ditto the wrist cord

WHY the above things? How do they fit into "motive"? If they are not "staging," what are they?

Maikai · Jun 6, 2004

they didn't post......so here goes...

Barbara said:
:waitasec:
So now it's THEY? So you are saying that THEY were watching the house and knew the Ramseys called the police, therefore gave up on getting the money????

I think they gave the plan up when JBR was killed.

Good thing they are imaginary or else if they really knew that, they might have beheaded her as promised in THEIR note.

Garrotting...beheading? Garroting is a way of beheading in the video games.....might have been the inspiration.......

You still haven't explained why thinking John was a billionaire, they only asked for $118,000?

In "Ransom," there is a question about why only $2,000,000? Don't they know I'm worth much more? FBI answers...because they know you have it. I think a smaller sum was asked for thinking it would be chump change to a billionaire, and he would come up with it quickly. A large sum might have made it more likely to call the FBI or police. Who knows if that would have been the end of it?

You still haven't explained why in THEIR panic, they remembered to take the tape, etc. that is unaccounted for.

They took the items they brought in...might have had a knapsack or something to put them in......stun gun could be traced back if bought legitimately.

Jayelles · Jun 6, 2004

Maikai said:
If they couldn't plan a legitimate kidnapping, then the murder may not have been intentional, and they cut the plans short. He may not have wanted to risk seen carrying a dead body around, and may have thought they needed her alive, to prove they had her....or if one found himself alone, with the other one bailing out early, he'd have no reason to continue the plan.

So where does the sexual molestation come into it? If they clobbered her and throttled her to silence her - why sexually assault her with a paintbrush?

Why does any writer write the way they do? Planning the note beforehand could have been part of the excitement...and they may have felt the note would do the trick---if the Ramseys didn't call the police, it would be easy to get the money out of them. It's a long rambling note, with the first 2/3's at least showing some thought beforehand, IMO. The taunting and sarcastic last part seems more adlibbed.

So you are assuming that the kidnappers intended to spend ages in the house composing and writing the note? Wouldn't genuine kidnappers get in and out AQAP?

Maikai · Jun 6, 2004

Britt said:
What about the sexual assault? Which motive is the real motive?

Were they stupid amateurs? Did they just forget they'd written the note? If they were so stupid, how did they cleverly manage not to leave any evidence? And why cleverly leave no evidence yet "forget" the two hugest pieces of evidence - the body and the note?

So....we have two amateur criminals bumbling their way through a variety of crimes in a stranger's home on Christmas night, spending hours in the home (as they wait for the family to return, then wait for the family to prepare for and go to bed, then fall asleep) yet leaving no physical evidence -- no fingerprints, no DNA, no hair, no noise -- and volunteering a three-page handwriting sample and leaving behind the collateral.

And why would an intruder need to, or bother to, stage the crime scene?

The staging:
1. blocking the train room door with the chair after entering the house through the train room window
2. a ransom-for-money note, but a sexually assaulted victim
3. a useless piece of postmortem duct tape... (in any case, try the tape yourself and see how "subdued" you are)
4. ditto the wrist cord

WHY the above things? How do they fit into "motive"? If they are not "staging," what are they?

Yes, they were stupid amateurs---they blew the kidnapping, and they left evidence. Amateurs make mistakes. They left DNA, a footprint, trace fibers and hair, and their handwriting. I don't think they knew printing--even disguised might be able to be traced back, if they got on the radar screen.

The sexual assault, IMO, was incidental to the true crime---wouldn't be the first case where there was another motive, and a victim sexually assaulted out of anger. If the train room door was blocked, then it was done on the way out---a temporary barricade, just in case someone came charging down the stairs. There's no reason to think the perp was cool, calm and collected.

They left the body, because it was more incriminating to be found with a dead body,then leave it behind. They may have thought they needed her alive to prove they had her. If the crime got out of hand, then the plan unravelled.

Jayelles · Jun 6, 2004

Maikai said:
Yes, they were stupid amateurs---they blew the kidnapping, and they left evidence. Amateurs make mistakes. They left DNA, a footprint, trace fibers and hair, and their handwriting. I don't think they knew printing--even disguised might be able to be traced back, if they got on the radar screen.

Stupid amateurs who tied an "elaborate" knot? And who have evaded capture for 7+ years?

Barbara · Jun 6, 2004

IMO, this whole "movie" script being a part of the ransom note is not an issue. It sounds good while speculating, but I truly believe the movies don't play any part (at least intentionally) in the writing of the note. It's been fun reading all the comparisons though and gave the Ramseys something to sidetrack about.

You said they gave up the plan (you think) when JBR was killed, but you said earlier that they would have gotten the money if the Ramseys didn't call the police, inferring that they were in fact watching and planning to get the money anyway (unless I misunderstood your post). Asking for 2 million when a person has more, is still TWO MILLION DOLLARS AND PETTY CASH. Thinking John is a "BILLIONAIRE" and asking for 118K is quite different AND not comparable to the ratio described in Ransom.

Taking in the items they "brought" still shows they didn't panic and had THEIR wits about them enough to remove those items, why not the ransom note. It wasn't too heavy and would have fit in a knapsack.

I beg to differ: Garrotting is not symbolic of beheading. This was someone supposedly old enough to have a hatred for John, yet plays video games for inspiration? Video games are more in tune with young children, say 9 years old?

Jayelles · Jun 6, 2004

I would also wonder why the Bungle Brothers didn't take a few items of value when their kidnapping went awry?

Barbara · Jun 6, 2004

Yes, they were stupid amateurs---they blew the kidnapping, and they left evidence. Amateurs make mistakes. They left DNA, a footprint, trace fibers and hair, and their handwriting. I don't think they knew printing--even disguised might be able to be traced back, if they got on the radar screen.

Kidnappers who really plan a kidnapping as you describe as "going bad" don't come prepared with a stun gun, tape, cord, etc. and then hope there is enough time, material, etc. to write the ransom note THERE AT THE SCENE. That's just ridiculous.

If this were a true kidnapping, the kidnappers would have had everything prepared, no? Like in the movies the kidnappers watch, according to the RST. They paste letters from newspapers, magazines and the like onto pieces of paper so that the handwriting cannot be traced.

Either they are movie buffs or they are not. Either they are amateur or they are not. Either they are pedophiles or they are not. Either they are.......or they are not....the list is endless.

Barbara · Jun 6, 2004

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Jayelles said:
the Bungle Brothers

Jayelles · Jun 6, 2004

I think they would most likely would prepare a ransom note with a computer. Very few people don't have access to computers nowadays.

Barbara · Jun 6, 2004

Jayelles said:
I think they would most likely would prepare a ransom note with a computer. Very few people don't have access to computers nowadays.

Back in 1996, computers weren't quite as common as now. I didn't have one until 1997 and many people I know got theirs around the same time.

I'd be curious to find out how many documented cases of kidnapping had handwritten ransom notes. I'll try to research that as well.

Jayelles · Jun 6, 2004

Barbara said:
Back in 1996, computers weren't quite as common as now. I didn't have one until 1997 and many people I know got theirs around the same time.

I'd be curious to find out how many documented cases of kidnapping had handwritten ransom notes. I'll try to research that as well.

Maybe so, but there were word processors and typewriters.

Maikai · Jun 6, 2004

Jayelles said:
I think they would most likely would prepare a ransom note with a computer. Very few people don't have access to computers nowadays.

Hard drives can be checked.....typing traced back to paper and printer. There could have been a computer generated note---the length of the note would be much less on a typed page....it could have been copied onto the notepad because of opportunity. The cross-offs in the printed note could have been the result of copying, and losing his place.

Jayelles · Jun 6, 2004

Maikai said:
Hard drives can be checked.....typing traced back to paper and printer. There could have been a computer generated note---the length of the note would be much less on a typed page....it could have been copied onto the notepad because of opportunity. The cross-offs in the printed note could have been the result of copying, and losing his place.

Checking the hard-drive would only be useful if it were ever saved. If I were going to do somethig like this, I wouldn't save it.

Of course, I have proved how effectively one can copy someone's handwriting by computer. I used a scanned copy of another poster's London Letter to fake a Lord's prayer. It was more than passable. I posted the results at Purgatory some months ago.

Maikai · Jun 6, 2004

Barbara said:
If this were a true kidnapping, the kidnappers would have had everything prepared, no? Like in the movies the kidnappers watch, according to the RST. They paste letters from newspapers, magazines and the like onto pieces of paper so that the handwriting cannot be traced.

Either they are movie buffs or they are not. Either they are amateur or they are not. Either they are pedophiles or they are not. Either they are.......or they are not....the list is endless.

I don't think they necessarily had to be pedophiles. Movie buffs, yes---the note was a copycat of several extortion movies---and then there's the marked up entreprenaur article which is from "Rocochet." I can see someone having a great deal of fun composing it, and anticipating at some point it would be known, and people would puzzle over it. They brought in a burglary/kidnapping kit----but didn't think it through, which is why they botched it.

Kidnaping Gone Bad

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