JonBenet's Dream Team

I thought it's time for JonBenet to have her own dream team..Now this thread is not being IDI or RDI this all about JonBenet..I would like to discuss the evidence, discussing the truth and lies in this case...Now alot of you done set your beliefs but I believe we maybe can start like in the begining cause there is alot of us that don't know the whole case..So I'm thinking we can go back maybe to December 26,1996 like to the 911 call and talk about the timeline and the different stories that was told..

Now I read that PR woke ar 5:45am then some links say 5:30am..So the time I go by is what she told Officer French the first officer on scene and that was 5:45am..

Ravyn said:

I thought it's time for JonBenet to have her own dream team..Now this thread is not being IDI or RDI this all about JonBenet..I would like to discuss the evidence, discussing the truth and lies in this case...Now alot of you done set your beliefs but I believe we maybe can start like in the begining cause there is alot of us that don't know the whole case..So I'm thinking we can go back maybe to December 26,1996 like to the 911 call and talk about the timeline and the different stories that was told..

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What a great idea, Ravyn. This case can always stand a re-analysis of the real facts.

Ravyn said:

Now I read that PR woke ar 5:45am then some links say 5:30am..So the time I go by is what she told Officer French the first officer on scene and that was 5:45am..

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ST recounts the events as follows:

sometime before 6:30 am, marked by the arrival of the Whites and Fernies, PR told officer French that she had 'gone into JBR's bedroom at 5:45 am' to awaken her, as the family was to fly to Michigan that morning. 'The bedroom was empty and when she descended the spiral staircase she found the rn on a lower rung.'

after approx 6:30 am , PR changed her story, she told later told Arndt that 'she went downstairs and found the note first and only then hurried to the bedroom and found JB gone.'

When the case first hit the news, the tabloids reported PR's alternate version of events that morning- that she "went down the spiral stairs around 5:30 am to make morning coffee" and found the note on the stairs. She may have actually said that first, then changed it when talking to LE.

Thank you all that replied..See this is the one thing that as always got to me the different stories,I know the timeline can be hard the first few hours..Why? would this story of that morning keep changing, and if the R's did already had talked to lawyers why would they tell them to distance themselves, cause I know I'm not the only one that wishes we could have the phone records...

I don't remember where I read this but one time was set to meet the private jet was 10:00am...Does anyone remember this time here...

Tadpole12 said:

ST recounts the events as follows:

sometime before 6:30 am, marked by the arrival of the Whites and Fernies, PR told officer French that she had 'gone into JBR's bedroom at 5:45 am' to awaken her, as the family was to fly to Michigan that morning. 'The bedroom was empty and when she descended the spiral staircase she found the rn on a lower rung.'

after approx 6:30 am , PR changed her story, she told later told Arndt that 'she went downstairs and found the note first and only then hurried to the bedroom and found JB gone.'

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Isn't ST the guy who got sued and lost? Man, between that loss, plus the lack of consensus on the handwriting, no grand jury indictment, the intruder DNA and the DA's exhoneration, it seems RDI is on a perpetual losing streak. The whys and the wherefores don't even matter anymore. In reality there is very little hope for RDI.

Ur gonna need more than old worn out hearsay...

Hi Hotyh.

Holdontoyourhat said:

Isn't ST the guy who got sued and lost? Man, between that loss, plus the lack of consensus on the handwriting, no grand jury indictment, the intruder DNA and the DA's exhoneration, it seems RDI is on a perpetual losing streak. ...

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I guess. For sure, if you attach a group think to all the opinions of the RDI posters and homogenize them.

Holdontoyourhat said:

The whys and the wherefores don't even matter anymore. In reality there is very little hope for RDI.

Ur gonna need more than old worn out hearsay...

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I guess. same old story fer ya?

It's that your opinion of the focus on PR's differing statements, as cited by ST? "old worn out hearsay"?

Don't be so entrenched .... Hotyh.

IMO it's of interest IDI wise ..... in so much as now being able to review ST's errors and what events he chose to mention as a means to attach guilt to the Ramseys.
With the touch dna evidence and exhoneration ... ST's book is a whole different story, now .... and his circumstancial evidence has no substance, it has evaporated?
More so a "Review of ...., rather than an RDI points list. like the making of the myth? IDI'ish.

Hey Ravyn.


Carnes Order for ref:
http://www.acandyrose.com/03312003carnes01-10.htm

JBR Timeline, Dec 26:
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/December%2026

Ravyn said:

Now I read that PR woke ar 5:45am then some links say 5:30am.So the time I go by is what she told Officer French the first officer on scene and that was 5:45am..

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Hi Ravyn.

best source: http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/December%2026#Before600AM


~5:30 AM John Ramsey Awoke. "Defendants assert they woke around 5:30 a.m. and proceeded to get ready for their trip. While Mr. Ramsey took a shower, Mrs. Ramsey put back on the same outfit she had on the night before and reapplied her makeup. (SMF P 15.)" (Carnes 2003: 7) John Ramsey reportedly awoke before Patsy, at about 5:30, and dressed after showering (Schiller 1999a:77).

~5:33 AM Patsy Ramsey Awoke. Patsy Ramsey awoke "a few minutes later;" dressed, put on make-up and went to 2nd floor to rinse out JBR jumpsuit and then went downstairs to kitchen (Schiller 1999a:77). Ramsey & Ramsey (2001:10) states she put clothes for trip into plastic bag (there is no allusion to rinsing the jumpsuit).

~5:45 Ransom Note Discovered. "Mrs. Ramsey then went down the backstairs towards the second floor, then the spiral stairs towards the ground floor, where, on a step near the bottom of the stairs, she discovered a handwritten note on three sheets of paper that indicated JonBenét had been kidnapped (the "Ransom Note"). (SMF P 16)." (Carnes 2003:7). Patsy Ramsey "told Det. Arndt that she found a note at the bottom of the staircase" at "approximately" 5:45 AM (Byfield 1997:1)

~5:45 AM JBR Found Missing. "As she descended the back stairwell, she discovered the Ransom Note and read only those few lines stating that JonBenét was kidnapped, but "safe and unharmed," and demanding $118,000 for her return. (SMF P 17; PSMF P 17.) Mrs. Ramsey immediately screamed and proceeded to check JonBenét's room, which was empty. (SMF P 18; PSMF P 18)." (Carnes 2003:11-12). Patsy Ramsey discovered JBR missing at "approximately 5:45 AM" (Byfield 1997:1).

Before 5:52 AM Parents Checked on Burke. "After hearing Mrs. Ramsey's scream, Mr. Ramsey ran downstairs and met Mrs. Ramsey in the stairwell. Together, they checked on their son who appeared to be asleep in his room. (SMF P 18; PSMF P 18.)" (Carnes 2003:12).

Before 5:52 AM John Ramsey Read RN. "Mr. Ramsey then went downstairs to read the Ransom Note, while Mrs. Ramsey called the police, informing them that her child had been kidnapped. (SMF P 19; PSMF P 19)" (Carnes 2003:12).

5:52 AM Patsy Ramsey Made 911 Call. John told Patsy to call police; 911 call logged at 5:52 AM (Schiller 1999a:78). The Daily Camera places this call at 5:45 AM, as does Bardach (1997).

After 5:52 AM Ramseys Phone Family Friends. Fleet & Priscilla White and John & Barbara Fernie (friends of family) had been phoned "shortly after the note was found" (Byfield 1997:1). Schiller (1999a:78) states that Patsy had called Whites & Fernies "immediately after" the 911 call; Ramsey & Ramsey (2001: 12-13) states she called Fernies first and then Whites. Schiller places the call to the Whites at "at about 6:00 AM" with house guest Clif Gaston picking up the phone (1999a:44); since the call was placed before Officer French arrived, it must have been before 5:59 AM since that is the time Schiller has French arriving at the house.

5:59 AM Officer French Arrived. BPD officers Karl Veitch and Rick French are reported to have "responded to" 911 call at 5:52 AM, but it is not clear whether this denotes actual time of arrival at the house (Byfield 1997:1. "Office Rick French of the Boulder Police arrived at the defendants' home in a marked car a few minutes before six a.m., followed soon after by Detective Linda Arndt. (SMF P 21; PSMF P 21.)" (Carnes 2003:14). BPD Officer Rick French was the first law officer to arrive at Ramsey house at 5:59 AM (Schiller 1999a:77), i.e., 7 minutes after the 911 call (Schiller 1999a:78). Glick et al. (1998) concurs French arrived "just before 6 a.m." The Daily Camera has French and Veitch arriving at the Ramseys at 5:45 AM.

In opinion really PR said she woke a few minutes later which means some that she got out of bed at 5:45 am cause really I'm still wonder what with the officer they both said 5:45am

Holdontoyourhat said:

Isn't ST the guy who got sued and lost?

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No, he didn't lose. The case never saw court. That's not surprising, since he'd have to give away the entire store to defend himself.

Man, between that loss, plus the lack of consensus on the handwriting, no grand jury indictment, the intruder DNA and the DA's exhoneration, it seems RDI is on a perpetual losing streak.

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I'm more than happy to go over each one of those.

The whys and the wherefores don't even matter anymore. In reality there is very little hope for RDI.

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Overconfidence often leads to bad ends.

Ur gonna need more than old worn out hearsay...

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Lucky for us then that I wrote it all down!

I dunno, finding this and that with PR's interviews after the fact depends largely on the context of the original conversation. Thats why I don't spend too much time on after the fact stuff, because of the context issue. I have to practically be there hearing the whole thing to truely understand what was meant, what was said. RDI is quick to take a statement out of context because it sounds soooo good to take it from the context it was in and place it in another more juicy context.

After all, RDI needs those little things to try to build snowballs, because there aren't any big things like parent DNA mixed with blood in JBR's underwear, matching parent DNA on her waistband. Talk about the RDI smoking gun!! I'd let RDI take the lead with that.

I can't quite remember what it was but somebody took a ML statement from two years ago in one context and applied it today in another context, as if to expose an unseen truth. If ML was here, there would be the explanation that the old remarks are obsolete.

Now in this thread I really don't want to go by what newspapers or the tabloids said but from documents,autopsy report, what expert says,and books..

Holdontoyourhat said:

Isn't ST the guy who got sued and lost? Man, between that loss, plus the lack of consensus on the handwriting, no grand jury indictment, the intruder DNA and the DA's exhoneration, it seems RDI is on a perpetual losing streak. The whys and the wherefores don't even matter anymore. In reality there is very little hope for RDI.

Ur gonna need more than old worn out hearsay...

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Not sure how the Ramseys seeking a settlement with ST rather than going to court and proving that he libelled them can translate into ST losing - especially given their oft-repeated assertion that it was about clearing their name rather than money.

Holdontoyourhat said:

I dunno, finding this and that with PR's interviews after the fact depends largely on the context of the original conversation. Thats why I don't spend too much time on after the fact stuff, because of the context issue. I have to practically be there hearing the whole thing to truely understand what was meant, what was said. RDI is quick to take a statement out of context because it sounds soooo good to take it from the context it was in and place it in another more juicy context.

After all, RDI needs those little things to try to build snowballs, because there aren't any big things like parent DNA mixed with blood in JBR's underwear, matching parent DNA on her waistband. Talk about the RDI smoking gun!! I'd let RDI take the lead with that.

I can't quite remember what it was but somebody took a ML statement from two years ago in one context and applied it today in another context, as if to expose an unseen truth. If ML was here, there would be the explanation that the old remarks are obsolete.

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Struggling to agree with this, HOTYH: the contexts of the interviews`etc are transparent and they are an unimpeachable reference point. Has anyone ever denied the content of, say, the 2000 interviews? As historical documents, I'd have thought they were pretty much the most useful sources available.

Holdontoyourhat said:

I dunno, finding this and that with PR's interviews after the fact depends largely on the context of the original conversation. Thats why I don't spend too much time on after the fact stuff, because of the context issue. I have to practically be there hearing the whole thing to truely understand what was meant, what was said. RDI is quick to take a statement out of context because it sounds soooo good to take it from the context it was in and place it in another more juicy context.

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Sounds like a very clever rationalization to me.

After all, RDI needs those little things to try to build snowballs, because there aren't any big things like parent DNA mixed with blood in JBR's underwear, matching parent DNA on her waistband.

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That's how circumstantial cases are MADE, HOTYH. That's a fact. I can't put it any plainer than that.

Talk about the RDI smoking gun!! I'd let RDI take the lead with that.

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Well, for starters, let me say this: even if there isn't a smoking gun on our side, it's a fact that relatively few cases HAVE one. And to that end, if that's all you're looking for, you're in a lot of trouble. The legal system depends greatly on the ability to make cases without "smoking guns." Which is a damn good thing, because otherwise a LOT of guilty people would go free.

Again, that's as plain as I can put it.

I can't quite remember what it was but somebody took a ML statement from two years ago in one context and applied it today in another context, as if to expose an unseen truth. If ML was here, there would be the explanation that the old remarks are obsolete.

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I take great issue with that comparison. It's one thing to change your statement after something new comes along (correct or not). It's another thing to try and squirm your way out when your own prior statements have you pinned.

Ravyn said:

I don't remember where I read this but one time was set to meet the private jet was 10:00am...Does anyone remember this time here...

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The actual time of their flight was supposed to be 7 am.
That's why PR looked as if she hadn't gone to bed. She HADN'T gone to bed. According to the contents of her digestive tract at autopsy, the death likely occurred between 12-1 am. The 911 call came right around 6 am. That was really only about 6 hours to deal with the horror of what happened, make a few well-placed phone calls (phone records not available- how convenient) and stage the crime scene.
Here's something interesting about their private plane flight scheduled for 7 am. We all know JR was heard by LE on the phone after he found JB's body speaking to his pilot Mike. This was after 1pm. JR was trying to schedule a get-away flight to Atlanta- with his dead daughter still lying under the Christmas Tree. She wasn't even in the morgue yet. LE put a stop to those plans and oddly, JR seemed surprised when told he couldn't leave Boulder.
YET- where is any reference to when JR cancelled his original 7 am flight?
Of course once again- the "unavailable" phone records. How did the pilot know the family wasn't going to be flying to Charlevoix? You'd think if someone was 6 hours late for their scheduled flight you'd try to find out why. They were supposedly friends, too.

See this is intersting DeeDee, cause I do believe on ARC site JR made a call to MA that morning and talked to the co-pilot that said MA was in transit..And some say that the R's older kids flew by JR's private jet Atlanta to Minnalopis..But told the co-pilot to tell MA to call his kids to tell them to call JR...