2009.08.07 Emails between Oak Ridge and OCSO

The following emails were part of the last discovery but not uploaded by the media. I thought sleuthers might find them interesting.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 2:47 PM
To: Melich, Yuri (OCSO)
Subject: prelim case report

Attachments: Melich - Forensic report.doc; Melich - Table 1.doc

Detective Melich, please call me if you have additional questions. We are currently preparing your shipment. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 2:56 PM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: MSDS

Doctor Vass

The attached file is the MSDS for Blustar. Let me know if this did or did not help. Thanks.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 3:11 PM
To: Vincent, Michael
Subject: RE: MSDS

Mike, got this much myself. It just nowhere lists the actual chemical ingredients that make it up. If the information is proprietary then you might have to call the company and get that information. They wouldn’t give it to someone like me. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 3:12 PM
To: 'Vass, Arpad Alexander'
Subject: RE: MSDS

I give them a call and see what I can do.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 6:04 PM
To: Vincent, Michael
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, it all depends how the new formula is different. I don’t think it will contribute decomp compounds to the odor, but you can understand that I have to make sure. Thanks, Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:44 PM
To: 'Vass, Arpad Alexander'
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

I understand. I want to make sure you have all the information you need to help you in your findings.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:30 PM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: **Exempt**

Doc,

I check the trash that was in the vehicle there was no meat products in the trash. There were pieces of a pizza box and other food containers. I will be emailing you a picture of the items first thing tomorrow.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:33 PM
To: Vincent, Michael
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, not sure how I got that there was a pizza in the trunk – sorry about that one, but can you send me an itemized list of stuff that was in the trunk at the time the car was searched? Also, were the maggots on the pizza box?? Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:40 PM
To: 'Vass, Arpad Alexander'
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

The pizza story came from the mother, who told reporters the smell was from pizza in the trunk. A local news station left a half of pizza in a trunk for seven days, there results were no smell, no maggots, just dried out pizza. I will send you the list along with the pictures.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 12:40 PM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Cc: Yuri.Melich@ocfl.net
Subject: **Exempt**

Doc,

Attached is a list of items that was in the trash bag in the vehicle. Also attached are pictures of the items. If there is anything else I can help you with please let me know.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 11:28 AM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: Package **Exempt**

Doc,

Seven of the glass tubes were broken. How important are the glass tubes, can I ship them back in a different container?

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 11:51 AM
To: Vincent, Michael
Subject: RE: Package **Exempt**

Mike, unbelieveable! Fortunately the glass tubes are not important at all, just a means of shipping (safe we thought). Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 11:56 AM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: RE: Package **Exempt**

So it is ok to go ahead with testing? Also the pizza box is in three large pieces, is it ok to place them in a plastic bag, seal the bag and take the samples?

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 11:59 AM
To: Vincent, Michael
Subject: RE: Package **Exempt**

Perfect. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 1:31 PM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: RE: Package **Exempt**

Arpad,

Question? Would you like to have an air sample of all of the trash collectively? I can seal all the trash in a container and take a sample.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 1:51 PM
To: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: RE: Package **Exempt**

Yes, that would replace the pizza box alone sample. Excellent idea! Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 2:15 PM
To: Vincent, Michael
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, we are still very curious about the very high levels of chloroform we saw in the trunk sample. I know you said nothing was found in the house search, but did the mother or other family member or friend/other relative have any access to pharmaceutical supplies ie working in a lab or hospital, veterinary clinic etc?? Just a thought. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 2:52 PM
To: 'Vass, Arpad Alexander'
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mom is a registered nurse in a old folks home. But the daughter had sole custody of the vehicle. However, a forensic search of the home computer revealed Google search on How to make chloroform. They are trying to pin down a time on the search to see who conducted the search.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 2:54 PM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: **Exempt**

Doc,

When I do a sample with one TST what do I do if anything, to block off the second hose line?

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 2:57 PM
To: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Nothing – just leave it flopping. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 3:08 PM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: **Exempt**

Doc Vass,

The air samples and pump were shipped this morning they should be delivered to you by 1030am Wednesday, 9/3. The tracking number is 8619 0904 1289. They were individual packaged so they don’t get broken. Also I included a property form for the reason of chain of custody only. I don’t want to be a pain, and I’m not asking this question, but, could you give me an estimated time on testing the new air samples. Also, if you send Detective Melich an email with your preliminary results could you please forward me a copy and CC me any other results you send him. Thank you. I am still checking on the makeup of the trunk liner, as soon as I get the info I’ll email you. If there is anything else I could do to help you please let me know.

Thanks for all your help in this investigation.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 3:20 PM
To: Vincent, Michael
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, thanks. I will do everything you have asked. I will try very hard and get the next prelim (corrected this time in regard to the pizza) report out to you by COB this Friday. If the samples are loaded with compounds it just takes time to identify them all. I know this is important and time is critical. I appreciate your assistance in the sample collection and your patience. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 3:34 PM
To: 'Vass, Arpad Alexander'
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Doc,

On another note. I want to apologize for the prerelease of your findings so far. I didn’t agree with it, for some reason and I still can’t figure out why, they wanted to release all our findings.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:31 AM
To: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, I try very hard not to second-guess people since I am well aware that I know very little of what is really going on in an investigation, but I think the early release of the chloroform data was a mistake. Since I am saying nothing to anyone outside my group, I am now getting criticized for other reasons and feel that it might be time to back away from this work. I will of course get the next report out to you and Yuri as promised as soon as I can. On a final note, some of the products we have seen include Pinene and Limonene. This could point to a (possibly) shallow marshy area with decaying vegetation. Is there such an area anywhere near where the car was found? Is it possible to get a topo map of the area? Would it be possible to speak to the individual leading the search from Necrosearch? Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 2:57 PM
To: Vincent, Michael; Melich, Yuri
Subject:

Yuri/Mike, Good news and bad – bad first – our GC/MS is down and I can’t run the last few samples until we fix it so the report will be late – I am REALLY sorry about that. Will try and get it out to you Monday or Tues – I will try and come in this weekend and work on the system. Good news – the LIBS analysis on the carpet sample is showing positive results (inorganic indicators of decomp are present (calcium, magnesium, etc.) – nothing in controls. Finally I was hoping to get your permission to do a chemical extract on the piece of carpet you sent us looking for VFAs. If positive, this will give us odor, inorganic and organic markers for decomp. If we are really, really lucky we might be able to use the data to get a PMI. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 3:09 PM
To: Melich, Yuri (OCSO); Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: flies

Mike, forgot to mention something in my last email. I FINALLY got a call back from Dr. Neal Haskell, my entomologist friend, and he said that the ‘fruit flies’ may really be coffin flies and that might be significant. He said that if you still have them to please send them to him at the following address and he will check them out.

Dr. Neal Haskell
425 Kannal Avenue
Rensselaer, Indiana 47978

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 5:22 PM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: RE:

Arpad,

Could you please advise me as to what LIBS and VFA’s stand for. Thanks.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 7:45 AM
To: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: RE:

Mike, sorry. I am so rushed and stressed these days I don’t take the time to re-read everything. LIBS = Laser Induced Breakdown Spectroscopy and is used to determine an elemental profile of the sample. Useful in this case to see if inorganic compounds common to decomp (calcium, magnesium, chloride, etc) are present. VFA= Volatile Fatty Acids which are produced from the breakdown of fat and muscle and, if present, are used for PMI (post-mortem interval) determinations during soft tissue decomp. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 9:31 AM
To: Vincent, Michael
Subject:

Mike, sorry to bother you again, but had some additional (although odd) questions:

Does the family own a boat or have access to one? If so, has that been searched?

Has the Lake Fairview area been searched? Any connection to that Lake and where they live, friends, etc?

I’m still working hard trying to get that report out to you. Hopefully today – again sorry for the delay. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 3:28 PM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Cc: Yuri.Melich@ocfl.net
Subject: RE:

Arpad,

Sorry it took so long to get to you. The family does not have access to, or own a boat. There are several small, medium, and large retention ponds within the immediate area of the family home. As far as I know Lake Fairview area was not search. I am curious to know what zeroed you in on that area.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 3:56 PM
To: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: RE:

Mike, just a hunch really. I don’t really know where their house is or where the car was found in relation to their home or the Lake, or what direction it was pointing when it ran out of gas, or where her ‘friends’ live, etc, etc, but looking at the Orlando area by Google Earth satellite imagery, that Lake seems the deepest with nice secluded access points and is large enough so that if you go out 700ish feet from shore nobody can see what your doing. Also the vegetation on the NNW area of that Lake seems to be of what I would expect would produce the pinene and limonene we detected in the trunk (although it’s tough to tell by computer and it might be all over the place). If she really is in a body of water, she would have to be either weighed down or in a container to keep from floating via bloat. Might be an easy search if you use side-scanning sonar (but don’t know how deep the Lake is). The deeper, colder water there (also a hunch) might help prevent that from happening. Again hard to tell by satellite, but some of the remote parking garages appear to have cameras on their roofs – also don’t know if that helps any. Anyway I’ll still waiting for some results – better get back to work. Thanks for listening to my ravings. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

Here is part 2 of 2.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 9:51 AM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: **Exempt**

Arpad,

Morning Doc. Haven’t heard from you in a while. Just checking to see how it’s going.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 10:46 AM
To: Vincent, Michael
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, I have been keeping my head way down these days. We are still waiting on some standards we had to buy which are on backorder, but I think we will go ahead and send you prelim report #2 (just waiting on those blasted stds) so you can see where we are (this has been quite an ordeal). Are you going to send us the trash bag debris so we can start the extractions – that will take a while? Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 11:02 AM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Arpad,

Believe me I understand how much this case has consumed your time; you should see the way it is on this end. With that said, I would like for you to make the call as to the trash bag. I don’t want to burn you out or get you in any hot water from your people. I would like to send the items to you only to keep the case all together. If you want I can try to send the items to the FBI lab. I again would like to thank you for the work you have done so far. I and my coworkers are amazed at the results you have come with. Thanks you.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 11:45 AM
To: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, that is again your call about the debris. We can do it, but it will take a while. I am in California early Oct, in England mid- Nov, Washington DC end of Nov and have to testify on another case in Dec. How about you go ahead and send the trash debris and not the brown liq. If the liquid was in a closed container, it couldn’t have contributed to the odor anyway. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 5:48 PM
To: Melich, Yuri; Vincent, Michael
Subject: prelim report #2

Gentlemen, please find attached the second preliminary report – we are still waiting on some standards which are on backorder and VFA analyses to complete the report. Please read over the report carefully. I would like to schedule a phone conference with you and (if possible) a prosecutor early next week to determine what else needs to be done assuming this will be used in court (for example – should we be sampling a dead squirrel, are our procedures sufficiently thorough to hold up in court, discuss standards, Daubert issues, etc. etc.). I hope you understand why this has taken so long once you read the report. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Melich, Yuri (OCSO)
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 10:03 PM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: RE: prelim report #2

Thank you Arpad. I would appreciate a conference call but that may have to wait a bit. I broke my leg last week and have been home and on medication since. I plan to go back to light duty by the end of next week, beginning of the following. After that, I’m sure our prosecutor will have some questions and would love the opportunity to speak with you.

Thanks again for all the hard work you do. Not only in this case, but in your research in general. It is people like you that dedicate their lives to such a specific study, that in my opinion moves the world forward. Thank you Arpad.

Yuri.

Detective Corporal Yuri Melich
Orange County Sheriff's Office
Missing Persons Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 8:28 AM
To: Melich, Yuri
Subject: RE: prelim report #2

Yuri, you are most kind. Sorry about the leg - was it a compound or simple fracture? The week of October 6th I am out teaching at the National Forensics Academy and the following week I am in Calif working on 40 year old serial killer case. Might have to go to NY the week of Oct 20 and I’m overseas in England the week of Nov 9th, but should be in the rest of the time. I still would like to come down to FL one of these days if I can squeeze it in. I wish you a speedy recovery. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Melich, Yuri (OCSO)
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 8:48 AM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: RE: prelim report #2

It was a spiral fracture of the tibia with two simple fractures of the fibula. Thankfully, none of it broke the skin so healing with be significantly better and with much less chance of infection. I have an internal cast consisting of a titanium rod down the tibia and three screws holding it together. I have almost full range of motion with my knee but only about 40% with my ankle just due to the surgery and swelling. In short time, I should be back to full mobility and then full use.

The State Attorney’s office would love to speak with you and ask questions about what they foresee as challengeable court issues. I will be meeting with them prior to this call to discuss the overall case after which I’m assuming they’ll want to facilitate a call to you. I’ll give you notice of this to make sure you’re not in the middle of something. One thing that I did want to ask, the FBI has a hair which shows signs of decomposition (dead mans ring). Is there anything you could gain from testing or having access to this particular piece of evidence? If so, we can facilitate that too.

I surely hope when you do come to the Orlando area, you look me up. I would greatly enjoy sitting and talking to you. I’m sure Mike Vincent would second this thought.

Thanks again and enjoy your trips!

Detective Corporal Yuri Melich
Orange County Sheriff's Office
Missing Persons Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 8:59 AM
To: Melich, Yuri
Subject: RE: prelim report #2

Yuri, that sounds painful nevertheless. Regarding the hair, about the only thing we could do is neutron activation – it will tell you all the elements in the hair – the value is if the person was poisoned we would see the arsenic etc. Don’t think any chloroform would be in the hair, but it might be quite useful if the FBI could do an extract of the hair looking for chloroform adherence. That would link things nicely if it is even possible. Was the DNA intact enough to ID? Any thoughts on the report so far? Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 9:02 AM
To: Melich, Yuri
Subject:

Yuri, one last thing – I saw on the news that the police were doing a lake search. Was that by any chance Lake Fairview? Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Melich, Yuri (OCSO)
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 9:29 AM
To: 'Vass, Arpad Alexander'
Subject: RE: prelim report #2

The report looks good to me. As to the hair, we have mitochondrial DNA matching it to the child (via mother’s line). I don’t believe there was enough in the root to match directly to the child. I will ask about an extract for chloroform adherence though.

Detective Corporal Yuri Melich
Orange County Sheriff's Office
Missing Persons Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Melich, Yuri (OCSO)
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 9:33 AM
To: 'Vass, Arpad Alexander'
Subject: RE:

I don’t believe that lake was checked due to the distance from where the suspect resided/played and no cell tower hits on that side of town over a two month period of time. We did check several closer local lakes and ponds with negative results.

Detective Corporal Yuri Melich
Orange County Sheriff's Office
Missing Persons Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Melich, Yuri (OCSO)
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 11:47 AM
To: 'Vass, Arpad Alexander'
Subject: RE:

Arpad,

The SAO wants to call you ASAP with some questions. They also want to put you in touch with some people from the FBI lab. I tried to call and notify you of this first, before giving your number out. Your cell seems to have some trouble and your office went to VM. Nevertheless, you should be getting a call from Linda Drane Burdick or even perhaps Lawson Lamar regarding this case.

Thanks again!

Detective Corporal Yuri Melich
Orange County Sheriff's Office
Missing Persons Unit

==taken from above

From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:31 AM
To: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, I try very hard not to second-guess people since I am well aware that I know very little of what is really going on in an investigation, but I think the early release of the chloroform data was a mistake. Since I am saying nothing to anyone outside my group, I am now getting criticized for other reasons and feel that it might be time to back away from this work. I will of course get the next report out to you and Yuri as promised as soon as I can. On a final note, some of the products we have seen include Pinene and Limonene. This could point to a (possibly) shallow marshy area with decaying vegetation. Is there such an area anywhere near where the car was found? Is it possible to get a topo map of the area? Would it be possible to speak to the individual leading the search from Necrosearch? Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

==
Sooo... they nailed this didn't they!

In da Middle said:

==taken from above

From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:31 AM
To: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, I try very hard not to second-guess people since I am well aware that I know very little of what is really going on in an investigation, but I think the early release of the chloroform data was a mistake. Since I am saying nothing to anyone outside my group, I am now getting criticized for other reasons and feel that it might be time to back away from this work. I will of course get the next report out to you and Yuri as promised as soon as I can. On a final note, some of the products we have seen include Pinene and Limonene. This could point to a (possibly) shallow marshy area with decaying vegetation. Is there such an area anywhere near where the car was found? Is it possible to get a topo map of the area? Would it be possible to speak to the individual leading the search from Necrosearch? Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

==
Sooo... they nailed this didn't they!

Click to expand...

Question is, how did those compounds end up in the trunk? Is it because KC backed into the area (risky due to the drop off)?

JWG said:

Question is, how did those compounds end up in the trunk? Is it because KC backed into the area (risky due to the drop off)?

Click to expand...

How about... She took off the shoes she wore into the swamp because they were wet and tossed them in the trunk.

And then CINDY washed them!

Muzikman said:

How about... She took off the shoes she wore into the swamp because they were wet and tossed them in the trunk.

And then CINDY washed them!

Click to expand...

And also on the bottoms of her pants, which were also washed

Ada said:

And also on the bottoms of her pants, which were also washed

Click to expand...

This is exactly what I was about to say - she was in such a rush to get back to TonE's that she didn't have time to go home and wash those pants and boots. Goes back home for a quick change, obviously couldn't leave those dirty things in the house anywhere. Cindy would surely find them. So she throws them in the trunk and is too stupid/lazy to get rid of them for the next 20 something days??? Sounds plausible to me!

Muzikman said:

How about... She took off the shoes she wore into the swamp because they were wet and tossed them in the trunk.

And then CINDY washed them!

Click to expand...

Or the pants. Didn't Cindy or LE say in the FBI interview that the pants were originally found in the trunk?

But I thought the area wasn't flooded in June?

In da Middle said:

==taken from above

From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:31 AM
To: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, I try very hard not to second-guess people since I am well aware that I know very little of what is really going on in an investigation, but I think the early release of the chloroform data was a mistake. Since I am saying nothing to anyone outside my group, I am now getting criticized for other reasons and feel that it might be time to back away from this work. I will of course get the next report out to you and Yuri as promised as soon as I can. On a final note, some of the products we have seen include Pinene and Limonene. This could point to a (possibly) shallow marshy area with decaying vegetation. Is there such an area anywhere near where the car was found? Is it possible to get a topo map of the area? Would it be possible to speak to the individual leading the search from Necrosearch? Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

==
Sooo... they nailed this didn't they!

Click to expand...

i would like to know was this a small amount....perhaps from shoes or pants being thrown into the trunk.....

or could it have come from the body a larger amount from the body being soaked....maybe because the body could have been in one place and then put back into the trunk and moved?

it will be interesting to see if they match this up to the exact spot to where caylee was found

something to add

lets just pretend that this didnt come off of KC pants or shoes etc........could there be any other reason that this would be found in the trunk of the car?

"Coffin flies" helped LE solve another case a few years back. Interestingly, the victim in that case was found with plastic making a gag over her mouth and nose. The defendant admitted hiding the victim's death for years, but said the victim died of natural causes and that the plastic had been placed over the victim's mouth and nose after death as a shroud. Flies helped the prosecutors prove otherwise.

Dr. Haskell, the same entomologist mentioned in the OSCO e-mails, solved the case.

The New York Times wrote about the case:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/science/12file-fly.htm

"Coffin flies" aren't junk science. According to the e-mails, no meat was found in the trash in KC's car trunk. So what attracted the "coffin flies"?

Coffin flies could get to a body sealed in bags and stuffed into a car trunk. The fly maggots can consume 60% of a body in less than a week. Children decompose faster than adults. Enough soft tissue had to be left to hold Caylee's trunk bones together for animals to scatter the bones in the pattern they were found in.

http://www.deathonline.net/decomposition/corpse_fauna/flies/coffin.htm

Everything points to Caylee being in the trunk and disposed of on Suburban shortly after her death.

jmo

john's mom said:

But I thought the area wasn't flooded in June?

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It wasn't flooded per se but was a low lying area where there were retention ponds year round as well as the road storm drains run off into this area, so there would always be patches of muddy soft soggy ground.

To me, this was also borne out by DC's search in Nov, when it was drying out that he was using a rod to probe the ground and it was very soft. Walking on the ground at any time of year would lead to mud being caked on shoes in areas and, given the overgrowth it'd be hard to see the muddy areas from dry.

JWG said:

The following emails were part of the last discovery but not uploaded by the media. I thought sleuthers might find them interesting.

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respectfully snipped by me

Thank you, JWG,

I did find this very interesting. It did seem to me that I'd seen some of these somewhere before so maybe some of this was provided by the media or something but I'm sure they weren't in order like this and that I'd not seen all of them. So, once again, thank you :clap: :clap: :clap:

So how do you get this stuff that the media doesn't upload? And are there other things they just didn't think we'd care to see? Or do they have some particular reason for not uploading everything? I guess I just thought they uploaded everything they were given. Now I'm wondering what else I may have missed.

JWG said:

Question is, how did those compounds end up in the trunk? Is it because KC backed into the area (risky due to the drop off)?

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Shoes and/or pants in trunk?

Muzikman said:

How about... She took off the shoes she wore into the swamp because they were wet and tossed them in the trunk.

And then CINDY washed them!

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gmta: Here's your coke!

Respectfully snipped from JWG's posts...
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:30 PM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: **Exempt**

Doc,

I check the trash that was in the vehicle there was no meat products in the trash. There were pieces of a pizza box and other food containers. I will be emailing you a picture of the items first thing tomorrow.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

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No meat products in the trash but there WERE "coffin flies". According to the testimony of Neal Haskell, a forensic entomologist at St. Joseph’s College in Rensselaer, Indlana, "scuttle flies, or “coffin flies,” insects that cannibalize dead bodies after they have undergone initial decomposition". http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/science/12file-fly.html?_r=1

JWG said:

The following emails were part of the last discovery but not uploaded by the media. I thought sleuthers might find them interesting.

-----Original Message-----
snip....
-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 3:56 PM
To: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: RE:

Mike, just a hunch really. I don’t really know where their house is or where the car was found in relation to their home or the Lake, or what direction it was pointing when it ran out of gas, or where her ‘friends’ live, etc, etc, but looking at the Orlando area by Google Earth satellite imagery, that Lake seems the deepest with nice secluded access points and is large enough so that if you go out 700ish feet from shore nobody can see what your doing. Also the vegetation on the NNW area of that Lake seems to be of what I would expect would produce the pinene and limonene we detected in the trunk (although it’s tough to tell by computer and it might be all over the place). If she really is in a body of water, she would have to be either weighed down or in a container to keep from floating via bloat. Might be an easy search if you use side-scanning sonar (but don’t know how deep the Lake is). The deeper, colder water there (also a hunch) might help prevent that from happening. Again hard to tell by satellite, but some of the remote parking garages appear to have cameras on their roofs – also don’t know if that helps any. Anyway I’ll still waiting for some results – better get back to work. Thanks for listening to my ravings. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

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Man! Vass would make an excellent WS'r! He already sounds like one of us.