Is it possible

This has nothing to do with whether RDI or IDI,I am just curious what your opinions are.

Could this(or something similar) be how she ended up both strangled and with her skull fractured(IMO she wasn't hit with something,the scalp was not damaged,and some speculated it could have been caused by some sort of pressure)?It's not impossible that both happened at the same time,right?


[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrote[/ame]




Re this position........it's very easy for the head to be hit against the fixed wood when you pull the cord or(guess it depends on how hard and fast you pull and if the victim is restrained by something else as well)?



:twocents:

madeleine said:

This has nothing to do with whether RDI or IDI,I am just curious what your opinions are.

Could this(or something similar) be how she ended up both strangled and with her skull fractured(IMO she wasn't hit with something,the scalp was not damaged,and some speculated it could have been caused by some sort of pressure)?It's not impossible that both happened at the same time,right?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrote


Re this position........it's very easy for the head to be hit against the fixed wood when you pull the cord or(guess it depends on how hard and fast you pull and if the victim is restrained by something else as well)?



:twocents:

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Hi Madeleine,

I want to clarify that I didn't mean JonBenet's head trauma was caused by some sort of pressure (although pressure is involved). The physics of the injury indicate a low velocity/high pressure trauma. For example, a bullet wound is high velocity/low pressure. Someone who is pushed or shoved whose head contacts an object is a low velocity/high pressure trauma, for example. The preceding is an overly simplistic explanation.

Velocity and pressure are relative terms and can, but not necessarily, mean two events occurred simultaneously. The injuries appear differently depending on the physics of the injury.

Thanks!

BOESP said:

Hi Madeleine,

I want to clarify that I didn't mean JonBenet's head trauma was caused by some sort of pressure (although pressure is involved). The physics of the injury indicate a low velocity/high pressure trauma. For example, a bullet wound is high velocity/low pressure. Someone who is pushed or shoved whose head contacts an object is a low velocity/high pressure trauma, for example. The preceding is an overly simplistic explanation.

Velocity and pressure are relative terms and can, but not necessarily, mean two events occurred simultaneously. The injuries appear differently depending on the physics of the injury.

Thanks!

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It's likely they occurred very close together, if not at the same time. They COULD have occurred together, but I see 2 people being involved if that was the case. Inflicting a bash like that would be hard to do at the same time you are pulling that cord. However, the garrote wasn't a true garrote, which usually requires two hands (one holding each end of the ligature, crossing them over each other to compress the throat. Unlike a noose, which doesn't require being pulled by two hands. A noose may not even need ONE hand, as the weight of a person and gravity are enough to tighten it. This garrote was neither a true garrote nor a true noose.

Remember JR was a expert at tying knots he had a extreme love of sailboats

Lookindreams said:

Remember JR was a expert at tying knots he had a extreme love of sailboats

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More than a love. The family owned boats for years, even BR had a basic knowledge on knots.

The common belief is the blow to the head was caused by a blunt object, delivered with a great deal of force----someone very strong. There was not a lot of blood in the skull, so the theory is she was garotted first, and close to dying when the blow was done. IMO, it was overkill, and the perp very angry for some reason.

Maikai said:

The common belief is the blow to the head was caused by a blunt object, delivered with a great deal of force----someone very strong. There was not a lot of blood in the skull, so the theory is she was garotted first, and close to dying when the blow was done. IMO, it was overkill, and the perp very angry for some reason.

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I thought that the coroner determined that the blow to the head came first and the garrotte actually ended her life?

joeskidbeck said:

I thought that the coroner determined that the blow to the head came first and the garrotte actually ended her life?

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Nope,he never bothered to figure that out.His conclusion was




Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma.

madeleine said:

Nope,he never bothered to figure that out.His conclusion was

Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma.

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Wow, talk about CYA! Why even bother to have an autopsy if your findings are going to be so ambiguous? We should not be surprised that JonBenet never received justice. She never stood a chance regardless of who killed her.

There was that big circus re the Ramsey's and the the DA "kidnapping " the body for the funeral before more tests could have been done.True,that was a huge mistake.

BUT that has nothing to do (IMO) with the coroner's mistakes,his findings and everything he did NOT do.

joeskidbeck said:

I thought that the coroner determined that the blow to the head came first and the garrotte actually ended her life?

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They determined that the head trauma came first and the strangulation occured 10 to 45 minutes following this.

Roy23 said:

They determined that the head trauma came first and the strangulation occured 10 to 45 minutes following this.

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"They" did no such thing. The coroner who actually performed the autopsy did not determine which came first. Either could have killed her independently of the other, and Mayer was not able to (or chose not to) say which came first.

However, another well-known forensic doctor, after reviewing the autopsy information, speculated that in his opinion, the head blow came first-taking up to 45 minutes or so (but may have been much less) to kill her, during which time the strangulation occurred.

To me, one of the ways I see the events of that night happening is that the head blow DID come first, possibly as a reaction to her scream. Then, when she collapsed immediately, she was presumed to be dead. At that point, she would have been in shock or in a coma almost immediately following such a severe blow to the head, and her respiration and body temperature would have dropped as well, giving the appearance to an untrained person that she was dead, when she may have still been alive.
Having a dead child in the house is problematic for residents of the house (but would not have been for an intruder- one of the reasons I rule out an intruder-they have no need to stage her death).
There was also the problem of no external signs of the head trauma- so no apparent reason for the death. The strangulation provided an instantly apparent cause of death. There may also have been the fear that without an obvious cause of death, autopsy would certainly find the fractured skull-evidence of a bash. What they didn't realize is that an autopsy is mandatory in ALL child deaths, and in any death where the cause is not known.
The pineapple found in her digestive tract was another autopsy surprise to the Rs- they would never have imagined it would be identified. That's why they had to lie about it.

DeeDee, I think you nailed it with the above post. There would be no need for an intruder to stage the death. They would only be using up time - time that they would need to get out of house undetected.

but would not have been for an intruder- one of the reasons I rule out an intruder-they have no need to stage her death

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Not a need, but a want. People don't only garrote and position bodies for cover-up, they also do it for role-playing, to satisfy desires, to play out and stage fantasies, etc.

ami said:

Not a need, but a want. People don't only garrote and position bodies for cover-up, they also do it for role-playing, to satisfy desires, to play out and stage fantasies, etc.

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Yes. But in THIS case, the parents and sibling of the victim were supposedly asleep upstairs. They could have woken up at any time and gone to her room to find her missing, and searched the house. In this case, NO intruder would have hung around after killing her, especially after she screamed. They would have run out of the house asap. That staging took time, including unwrapping presents in the basement to look for the clean panties (which no intruder, including one who may have known the family, would have known about).

hey could have woken up at any time and gone to her room to find her missing, and searched the house. In this case, NO intruder would have hung around after killing her, especially after she screamed. They would have run out of the house asap. That staging took time, including unwrapping presents in the basement to look for the clean panties (which no intruder, including one who may have known the family, would have known about).

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You're absolutely right. He would have finished her off and exited immediately. I was saying the staging would have been for the intruder, pre-scream, pre-death. Unconscious child, staged sexual scene for his benefit, she awakens, screams, he kills and dashes out.

(also, I thought the panties were intended as gifts but never wrapped or given, just opened and used by JBR though they were too large)

And equally, if the Ramsey's had all of this evidence snuck out of the house hours or a day after JBR's body was found, how did they count on the cops being so bungling, and that there would be no house lock-down as a crime scene and so little investigation? That was the only way they could have removed evidence after calling the police, was if the police failed to treat the scene as a crime scene, if their friends didn't notice them grabbing or hiding things. How did they know that in advance? etc.

I don't disagree with you, I just don't understand some parts of either side.

ami said:

You're absolutely right. He would have finished her off and exited immediately. I was saying the staging would have been for the intruder, pre-scream, pre-death. Unconscious child, staged sexual scene for his benefit, she awakens, screams, he kills and dashes out.

(also, I thought the panties were intended as gifts but never wrapped or given, just opened and used by JBR though they were too large)

And equally, if the Ramsey's had all of this evidence snuck out of the house hours or a day after JBR's body was found, how did they count on the cops being so bungling, and that there would be no house lock-down as a crime scene and so little investigation? That was the only way they could have removed evidence after calling the police, was if the police failed to treat the scene as a crime scene, if their friends didn't notice them grabbing or hiding things. How did they know that in advance? etc.

I don't disagree with you, I just don't understand some parts of either side.

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Your info on the panties was Patsy's statement, and can't be taken as fact. She lied about a lot of other things, including owing a bowl containing pineapple that was SEEN in a photo of her party three days earlier.
Patsy admitted buying the panties as a gift for her niece. Take a good look at the crime photos of that wineceller. NO one, especially someone as well-groomed as Patsy, would wrap gifts (on what? The floor? There was no table in that room) in a filthy, moldy room, where paint cans and dirty window screens were stored and white, powdery mold (very common on a concrete basement floor and NOT a reflection of Patsy's cleanliness) was all over the floor.
YET- partially unwrapped gifts were found in that very room. It is all too obvious that the boxes were unwrapped to find the panties.
As for the lock-down...you're kidding right? The police failed to secure the crime scene from the FIRST MOMENT, when Officer French allowed the Rs friends, pastor, and "victim's advocates" to enter the house or remain there. They wiped down counters, and kitchen surfaces with Windex, all the while the flashlight- a possible murder weapon- stood right there. As Officer French was alone for a while in the home with all these people, and claimed he searched the basement himself, it stands to reason he wasn't watching ALL of them ALL the time.
Det. Arndt ALLOWED people, including JR,to roam an active crime scene freely, resulting in JR bringing the body of his daughter up from the basement and forever contaminating the body.
Then, Det. Arndt herself moved the body and covered it with a sweatshirt after allowing JR to cover it with a blanket. Then, she allowed Patsy to throw herself on the body.
THEN, both parents were allowed to leave the house unsearched and wearing the same clothing in an unprecedented (for everywhere but Boulder, I bet) breach of procedure.
So I'd say they had a pretty good idea of the bungling and ineffectiveness that marred this case right from the start.
That house was not treated as a crime scene right from the start. I don't care how much yellow tape police put up.

hmmm. I have followed this case for a very long time and I have never heard that unwrapped gifts were found in the room that JB was found in. Can we verify this? I always read that the extra panties were kept in JB dresser and had not been intended for a christmas gift?

RTC said:

hmmm. I have followed this case for a very long time and I have never heard that unwrapped gifts were found in the room that JB was found in. Can we verify this? I always read that the extra panties were kept in JB dresser and had not been intended for a christmas gift?

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Sure - they can be seen in the photos of the basement, you can see the edge of the FAO Schwartz wrapping paper in the corner of the photo.
They are on this site, and references to the gifts are there as well. Click on the JonBenet Ramsey Archive section and there a ton of reference material there as well.

http://www.acandyrose.com

It was Patsy who said the panties were kept in a drawer. It is not a fact. While JB's own panties were kept in a drawer, police were NOT able to find the rest of the Bloomies Day Of The Week size 12 panties that were part of the set that JB was wearing. There should have been 6 more pairs - it was a 7-pair set. YEARS later the Rs sent what they said was the rest of the set to police with a note saying they "hoped it would help". Police said there was no way to confirm that they were part of that original set. Bloomies still sells those gift sets of girls' panties, though they change the prints from time to time. Today's forensic methods could probably match up the panties found on JB (which are still in an evidence locker) against the pairs that the Rs sent years layer. Dye lots can be matched, etc.
When Patsy was asked about these gifts and why they were in that room, she claimed she had been wrapping gifts in there. The floor if that room was covered with white mold (common on unsealed concrete basement floors), had NO table of any convenient place to wrap. With a house that size, and several other cleaner, more appropriate areas available, it is beyond belief that Patsy would wrap gifts (or even store them) in that dirty room, filled with old screens and paint cans and debris.
The panties were bought for Patsy niece, and when the need for a clean pair to redress the body in, the gift set was right there in the basement anyway. For obvious reasons (that BR was asleep - or not- in a room near JB's room, no one would have taken a chance to go upstairs to JB's room for panties.