2010.04.02 *SPECIFIC* Caylee's Position Inside Bags

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treeseeker

treeseeker

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Based on the location of the various remains, I was left with the impression that Caylee's body was placed in the laundry bag head first. There was hair and tape still on the skull, and the shirt was still in the bag, suggesting to me these were protected for a period of time. Dr. G discussed animal activity, while the body was still intact, and the shorts were found outside the bag. The laundry bag isn't torn.
 
treeseeker said:
Based on the location of the various remains, I was left with the impression that Caylee's body was placed in the laundry bag head first. There was hair and tape still on the skull, and the shirt was still in the bag, suggesting to me these were protected for a period of time. Dr. G discussed animal activity, while the body was still intact, and the shorts were found outside the bag. The laundry bag isn't torn.
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I believe it has also been noted in other threads that Caylee may have been imersed head-down into the standing water, allowing animals to access the trunk of her body first. If KC placed the bag in the woods (rather than throwing it in from the street, don't think she could have) she would most likely have held the handles and set it or slightly lobbed it and Caylee would have remained head down in the bag. I would not think KC dumped her out of the bag in any manner, and it just would not make sense that she was feet down in the bag based on animal activity, dispersion of bones, etc.
 
I am curious if Caylee was placed head down why the skull would be the thing on top to fall out when Kronk first came upon the remains. Although it would be plausible that animal activity would be pulling her little body up out of the bag by her lower extremities, leaving the skull in or near the bag
 
ok, i got inspired to try this, please don't beat me up - my first time ever drawing, copy & paste to this forum . . .
 

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wenwe4 said:
I am curious if Caylee was placed head down why the skull would be the thing on top to fall out when Kronk first came upon the remains. Although it would be plausible that animal activity would be pulling her little body up out of the bag by her lower extremities, leaving the skull in or near the bag
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I no longer have my notes from that time (that computer died) but I thought Det Yuri said that the skull hadn't actually fallen, it was still in place when LE got there?

I thought after reading Yuri's comments that possibly Kronk saw what he saw, then out of shock or fright his imagination took over for just a second and in his mind he thought the skull fell out towards him.

Maybe because it was in such an advanced state of decomposition (sorry) the local wildlife (which would have been relatively tame in the middle of a housing tract) or small, didn't cause as much damage as one would normally expect. Maybe much of that damage was caused by vermin.

Then being under water for months, the "decomposition event" may have concluded under water, the placement was such that everything just settled.

You know it is very "weird" but with all the indignities Caylee was subjected to at her mothers hands, someone (in LE I think) thought the odor still being sooo strong in that car months after it was stored in the LE storage/lab was Caylee saying don't forget me, "I'm still out there".

Her outline in the car clearly visible.

Then finding her remains although underwater for months still having the lower jaw attached by hair and tape.

I used to like reading "eerie stories" as a kid, but never ever bought into any of it. It surely is true, truth is stranger than fiction. No one (in their right mind) could have made up the story of Caylee and what the clues left behind say about what happened.
 
wenwe4 said:
ok, i got inspired to try this, please don't beat me up - my first time ever drawing, copy & paste to this forum . . .
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Thank you, you did great.... if anyone wants to beat on you, I'll take care of them for you... and I'm in the mood ....

That just makes me weep.
 
LCoastMom said:
Thank you, you did great.... if anyone wants to beat on you, I'll take care of them for you... and I'm in the mood ....

That just makes me weep.
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Thanks for having my back LCM! I apologise for making you cry. This is a really tough subject and I respect all of the brilliant minds who are willing to throw out their theories and others chiming in with feedback. Of course my outline is contrary to her being placed in the bag head first, but this was the first image that came to me. I wonder if the stains on the bag line up with the stains in the trunk. I seriously doubt it, as the bags would contain most of the fluids and we would be seeing an image of fluid spillage in a big puddle, imo. I know there are pics that LE has which depict the exact position the bag was found in, that have not been released. How long does the State get to keep all evidence like that away from the defense (public only?) under the sunshine laws?
 
wenwe4 said:
Thanks for having my back LCM! I apologise for making you cry. This is a really tough subject and I respect all of the brilliant minds who are willing to throw out their theories and others chiming in with feedback. Of course my outline is contrary to her being placed in the bag head first, but this was the first image that came to me. I wonder if the stains on the bag line up with the stains in the trunk. I seriously doubt it, as the bags would contain most of the fluids and we would be seeing an image of fluid spillage in a big puddle, imo. I know there are pics that LE has which depict the exact position the bag was found in, that have not been released. How long does the State get to keep all evidence like that away from the defense (public only?) under the sunshine laws?
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I don't know if they are ever going to release some of the pictures, I believe it was discussed in a hearing way back when.

If (and sorry I might be remembering wrong) all Kronk did was look into the bag and see the skull the way had been suggested I don't think Caylee was in head first. At least not if she was put in before decomp was in full swing.

My feeling is she slid the tote up the same way you would put a child into a bunting-bag. if kc carried that bag anywhere with Caylee slid in head first, her neck still being a weak spot would have been bent or shifted to the side. IMO she would not have stayed so perfectly placed in the fetal position.

Also because of the humidity and heat, this event would have happened fairly quickly; if Caylee was slid into the bag bottom/feet first (curled up) then carried by the top of the bag and tossed like a girl- (meaning without a lot of energy) she landed more or less in the position found heads up - bottom down, gravity would have brought decomposing tissue down as it shed which would have added to the likely hood of the skull being found so intact.

Sorry if this is "old news" or not the generally accepted thought on the matter I have been trying hard not to think of Caylee in this condition, but the amazing reconstruction on these pictures has dragged me back. I could not see an image some saw on the trunk liner until WS geniuses went to work on them.

The laundry bag on the other hand I saw exactly the way you depicted and I see how it sits over the stain in the trunk perfectly.

Re release of evidence

In another case I read where the defense was trying to see the most damning evidence, they offered what they had (which amounted to squat) in exchange for the states evidence.

The DA replied "I'm not ready to hand that over yet and (to the judge) I know I don't have to (Honest to goodness that was a tongue out nah-nah moment if I ever heard one). The judge just nodded, didn't give a time frame.

Our legal eagles can give you a better answer on that, there must be a time frame for exchange of all evidence in relation to trial I would assume. It's been interesting following this since the beginning as info was released a morsel at a time, just to keep the defense guessing how bad it was going to get... I don't think JB saw most of this coming (especially knowing the remains sat for 6 mos.) The state (and all they employ) have done an amazing job, seeing this information I see how they had DP on the table before Caylee was found. Finding the remains just added nails to the coffin.
 
If Caylee was put in the laundry bag head first, are we to surmise that she was placed in the garbage bags head first as well? Because why would you bag something, feet first, and then flip it upside down for the top of the garbage bag to leak into the bottom if the laundry bag. Sorry I'm just trying to better understand.

I always thought feet first. Head first in either canvas or laundry bag doesn't make sense to me. But none of this tragedy makes sense to me.

ETA: We can't take into account how the blanket factored into these items either.
 
ynotdivein said:
Going out on a limb here. Have never posted an image or edited an image. Holding breath and fingers crossed.... if this comes through I would appreciate feedback, though please stick to the facts and hold your constructive criticism on the quality of my artwork for sometime when my ego is not so fragile?

Hoping this does not blow anyone's margins:
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Nice job outlining what you see... even though it is opposite of what I'm seeing, LOL!

It looks to me like the side of the laundry bag facing us would correspond to the contours of her back, meaning she would be facing away from us in the fetal position.

The main reason I keep seeing it that way (and I do think that this canvas bag exactly corresponds to the stain sadly) is because of the position of where poor Caylee's feet would be in, the bag...

I'm no good at photoshop, but it really looks like her bottom is positioned closest to us and her legs are pointed away from us, and I can make out where each individual leg and even feet were situated/stuffed in the bottom (giving the flexed appearance that she's on the balls of her feet)...

Course, that's all MOO - but curious if anyone else sees the orientation in the canvas bag the way I do??? I agree that these images together really have strong impact and makes my heart break for that poor baby all over again...:sick:

 
quadlatte said:
Nice job outlining what you see... even though it is opposite of what I'm seeing, LOL!

It looks to me like the side of the laundry bag facing us would correspond to the contours of her back, meaning she would be facing away from us in the fetal position.

The main reason I keep seeing it that way (and I do think that this canvas bag exactly corresponds to the stain sadly) is because of the position of where poor Caylee's feet would be in, the bag...

I'm no good at photoshop, but it really looks like her bottom is positioned closest to us and her legs are pointed away from us, and I can make out where each individual leg and even feet were situated/stuffed in the bottom (giving the flexed appearance that she's on the balls of her feet)...

Course, that's all MOO - but curious if anyone else sees the orientation in the canvas bag the way I do??? I agree that these images together really have strong impact and makes my heart break for that poor baby all over again...:sick:
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I think you're seeing it the same way I'm seeing it, but I really would need an overlay of the trunk stain over the laundry bag (or the other way around) to be sure. We know the bag is 24 inches high, and the trunk photo shows the ruler next to the stain, so at least there's some rough scale to work with if anyone has the PhotoShop skills.
 
AZlawyer said:
I think you're seeing it the same way I'm seeing it, but I really would need an overlay of the trunk stain over the laundry bag (or the other way around) to be sure. We know the bag is 24 inches high, and the trunk photo shows the ruler next to the stain, so at least there's some rough scale to work with if anyone has the PhotoShop skills.
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I agree! Anybody wanna try? I have used up my photo shop skills for the day, I wouldn't want to learn too much new all at once (something old falls out each time something new comes in and I don't want to loose all of my childhood in one fell swoop) :waitasec:
 
quadlatte, is this more like what you were seeing?
 

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BJB, I am curious if you think Caylee's body was placed in the bag(s) head first or feet first, considering her skull and heavier parts were still located within or very close to the bag?
 
wenwe4 said:
BJB, I am curious if you think Caylee's body was placed in the bag(s) head first or feet first, considering her skull and heavier parts were still located within or very close to the bag?
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IIRC, in the very early posts on the Canvas Laundry Bag thread Hot Dogs and others were sorting out what order the bags were in (e.g. (1) body=>2x plastic=> laundry, or, (2) body => laundry =>2x plastic).

I reserve the right to be wrong :bang: but have always been under the impression that the order was (1) body=>2x plastic=> laundry. I base this largely on the lower arms and leg bones still being contained inside one of the plastic bags.

That being said...I dunno whether it would've been a head or feet-first positioning in the laundry bag. I understand the argument for positioning the feet in the bottom contour of the bag. You hafta remember that the pic of the bag being used on the stain-in-the-trunk thread is after being pulled apart from its months of being buried in the muck and underwater @ the remains site. Soo....FWIW, those creases, etc. may not be remnants of the body in the bag...rather a byproduct of the way the technician pulled it apart so it would "stand up" for the pic. Not sure I'm making that very clear.
 
Here are the pics that I am attempting to copy to this thread. Credit to Naturaleza for the upright drawing.


laundry bag 28.jpg

naturaleza image bag.jpg

wenwe4bag.jpg
 
Here is the one I attempted to draw for Quadlatte
wenwe4sidebag.jpg
 
Here you go wenwe and BJB.

It has been interesting to see how some of these disparate threads begin overlapping for so many of us as the case progresses. I know it drives the mods mad :blowkiss: but it heartens me because as one thread blends into another it indicates that smaller sections of the puzzle are slowly, relentlessly coming together to create a larger chunk of the full picture.
 

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