IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

kpeacock said:

(snipped by me)

Catching up, and wanted to bite for the sake of argument. Let's assume LS did stumble out, and that the 5N's given timeline is some version of truth. Other than JW's alibi, is there any proof that she didn't meet up with JW - either by making it all the way to his place by walking (unlikely, but not impossible?) or by running in to him on the street?

Couldn't she have died, unexpectedly, with him? Her heart gives out, she ODs, he doesn't know why or what happened. If she accidentally died in his presence, how do you think he'd react? Let's say they meet up, argue, and she dies suddenly. Or - they meet up, do a line of coke, argue, and she dies suddenly. No direct fault of his, perhaps. Just accumulation of the night's overindulging, drama and bad decision making.

Does he take her to the hospital? Or does he freak out and try to hide the body?

It's rumored in Btown (completely unsubstantiated) that JW was also dabbling in coke dealing (and by dabbling in, I mean swimming.)

She dies, he freaks out. Hides body somewhere. Plants coke in her room, calls his father, reports her missing. Angry at not knowing what she took that night, hearing gossip of the fight - he and Dad confront CR, to deflect attention. Insert rumor about changing carpet in rental house here. They leave town. He goes to therapy. Mom makes awful statement about LS being a drug addict. All attention is on 5N.

All just speculation for argument's sake. Anyone want to start poking holes/giving thoughts?

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a friend went to high school with JW. i should ask if he has any info

AbbeyR said:

In the few days after your girlfriend has gone missing, when police are all over you as a person of interest? And you live in a house with roommates and a landlord? How exactly would someone remove carpet 'under the radar' in that situation?

Not to mention that most people here have probably read almost everything to do with this case. How many people heard this rumor and if you did, what was the source? I think it's totally invented, but JMO.

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It could be completely fabricated. I'll spend more time tracking down where I read that info. It was the subject of lengthy discussion somewhere - essentially that JW was planning to replace damaged carpet to get back deposit on rental before he left for the summer, and the Dad helped him before they left Btown. Not confirmed, speculation, etc.

I'm essentially still playing along with akh's suggestion that we consider alternate theories to the 5N scenario. Is it unlikely that she left 5N? Sure. Is it possible, though? I think yes - and if so, what happened next?

Interestingly, at the end of this article, Bo Dietl voices his thoughts on JW:

http://archive.lohud.com/article/20...ered-away-after-night-heavy-drinking-drug-use

Essentially, all we have for JW that night is an alibi that isn't corroborated. All we really know is that he contacted HT in the morning, got her key, and reported LS missing very quickly.

He's never been my first pick for perpetrator of crime or coverup, but not considering him would mean we've gotten attached to certain theories that preclude us from considering others.

In terms of profiling JW, there's also the facebook posts he made the week before she went missing, mentioned here:

http://alwaysnewnews.weebly.com

Wolff posted to his facebook:
Jesse WolffWar has made me very paranoid and when Charlie get to eyeballin' me it makes my agent orange jack up, and I get the urge to kiiiillllllllMay 30 at 11:27am

I've always wondered if perhaps this FB update, posted the day after the Indy 500 where LS met CR, might have been in reference to CR. In a competitive way - not an actual physical threat, but an expression of protection of his relationship with LS when feeling threatened by a new interest in her life.

holly18 said:

My impression is that Blair had gone home for the summer, and she flew to IU after Lauren was reported missing to help search. Blair and BL were (from what the spierers have said) two of Lauren's closest friends. They've both done interviews and spoken about missing Lauren quite a bit, which makes sense since they were so close to her.

They've also helped the Spierers organize events to raise awareness for Lauren. I don't think BW is involved, and from how active she is on social media about wanting answers I don't think she's withholding information.

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Thing about this situation is, none of these people involved seem like bad people. And seemed like good friends too. But, if any of them know or sense something, they might view it, not saying BW is viewing it this way, but some of them might view it as getting someone else in trouble isn't going to bring Lauren back. As HT put it so succinctly, "this time she just went too far."
Now, does that sound like a loyal friend? Especially when no one is supposed to know what happened to her.

holly18 said:

My impression is that Blair had gone home for the summer, and she flew to IU after Lauren was reported missing to help search. Blair and BL were (from what the spierers have said) two of Lauren's closest friends. They've both done interviews and spoken about missing Lauren quite a bit, which makes sense since they were so close to her.

They've also helped the Spierers organize events to raise awareness for Lauren. I don't think BW is involved, and from how active she is on social media about wanting answers I don't think she's withholding information.

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Personally, I don't think she was involved either. Everything I've seen/read indicates that she is simply the best friend, grieving and concerned. Her father's business doesn't mean she was good friends with MB, or even in touch with him.

How awkward for BW, then, if she suspected MB at all - there would be reason for her not to open that pandora's box, based on family pressure to not get involved, perhaps?

kpeacock said:

It could be completely fabricated. I'll spend more time tracking down where I read that info. It was the subject of lengthy discussion somewhere - essentially that JW was planning to replace damaged carpet to get back deposit on rental before he left for the summer, and the Dad helped him before they left Btown. Not confirmed, speculation, etc.

I'm essentially still playing along with akh's suggestion that we consider alternate theories to the 5N scenario. Is it unlikely that she left 5N? Sure. Is it possible, though? I think yes - and if so, what happened next?

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I think it's worthwhile exercise just to get away from the circles and deadends that focusing on 5N ultimately lead to.

Interestingly, at the end of this article, Bo Dietl voices his thoughts on JW:

http://archive.lohud.com/article/20...ered-away-after-night-heavy-drinking-drug-use

Essentially, all we have for JW that night is an alibi that isn't corroborated. All we really know is that he contacted HT in the morning, got her key, and reported LS missing very quickly.

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This part still bothers me. Knowing what we actually know IMHO it was a fast jump to 'missing'. Especially once her phone is found and it answers the question why she hasn't returned calls or texts. And her phone was found somewhere that it would be likely to be lost by her, not on the other side of town in some dark alley.

Meanwhile, how did he know she hadn't been home, slept, and left for the day and he'd just missed her? That is still a curious piece of this puzzle to me.

It's like when he should just be starting to wonder where she might be, he's already treating it like she's a missing person and a potential victim of foul play.

If we speculate he called all her friends and nobody had seen her that morning therefore she must be missing, then you still have to wonder how he got to the point that soon to be calling all her friends? And besides that, did she have to be with a friend JW could reach and not by herself or with someone who JW wouldn't know how to contact?

He's never been my first pick for perpetrator of crime or coverup, but not considering him would mean we've gotten attached to certain theories that preclude us from considering others.

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Obviously the police don't feel they have enough evidence to make a case against 5N (yet). And neither do the parents or else it would be a different civil case. What they do have, and what all might be lacking, we don't know. Even things that might be mitigating we don't know. But if it's not 5N then statistically JW would have to be at the top of the list in this type of crime.

It doesn't do any good to convince ourselves it has to be 5N because it just has to be. I still consider 5N and JW to be PsOI 1A and 1B.

Very good points, Akh. Well said. The quick to report has bothered me from day 1. I joined WS becuz of this case. I could not fathom my fellow students back in my day reporting any of missing simply becuz we did not go home that night. Yes, we went to bars, and yes young'uns "hooked" up but we would Never! ever dream of filing a report in 12 hrs. It wasnt even dark yet the next day. And, no, our parents would not be sifting through our mess, as none of us in our right mind would have even thought to tattle to parents, at least that is the generation I am from.

So, whatever JW learned from her phone which was found in a perfectly logical place, Sports, where LOTS of intoxicated folks leave there belongings, that is the key. Phone info must be showing trail of
no return, literally.

monkey222 said:

So, whatever JW learned from her phone which was found in a perfectly logical place, Sports, where LOTS of intoxicated folks leave there belongings, that is the key. Phone info must be showing trail of
no return, literally.

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Was it stated anywhere that he retrieved her phone or got information from it?

If JW got Lauren's phone from Kilroy's, texts/msgs received on the phone could have been cause for alarm.

If Lauren was so intoxicated at Kilroy's that she left her phone and shoes, fell multiple times while walking/sitting outside, and was also present for and allegedly the reason for the altercation at Smallwood it makes sense that some friends or acquaintances may have left texts or messages on her phone regarding her condition after hearing bits and pieces through the grapevine. Most people probably wouldn't have known Lauren had lost her phone and may think they could get in touch with her.

IE: "Hey Lauren, I heard from ___ that a fight went down at Smallwood, are you okay?"
"Heard you are super plastered tonight!"
"My friend ___ found your ID last in the alley last night!"
etc, etc.

Just picking out random things that could have been heard by acquaintances through the grapevine that may have alarmed JW a bit in addition to the fact that Lauren didn't appear to have arrived home or contacted him or her her roommates. We also know that he was aware of LS's heart condition.

Wonder if any messages like this could have been on Lauren's phone, and thus caused JW to become alarmed much faster.

I'm also a little unsure if it is accurate that JW filed the police report. We've heard friends of LS' filed it before. Perhaps it was JW + friends of LS? Regardless, whatever rumor was being spread at that point, it doesn't appear that JW was alone in jumping the gun, so I'm not sure that's really that telling that he did if others were too? At least JW was knowledgeable about her heart condition.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28
Quoting Ros in an earlier post.

About 4:30 p.m. LS is reported missing to BPD - There is conflicting information about who made the missing person report: JW or Sara ? and Amanda Roude

"Police today said Wolff went to the police station to report Spierer missing. However, Tamir said two friends — Sara and Amanda Roude, a student from Chappaqua — went there to fill out a missing person's report."

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I'm also not sure that JW actually retrieved the phone.
Again, quoting Ros:

"Jesse was texting Lauren the next day to see where she was, but he got no answer because the bar had her phone," Tamir said. "After a few texts, the bar texted Jesse back saying your friend left her phone here, tell her to come get it."

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IMO, the bar isn't just going to hand over someone's phone to someone who claims they will give it to the proper owner. That seems to be supported by this article: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...al-plea-daughter-safe-return-article-1.127785

Cops found her shoes and cell phone at the pub earlier this week.

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akh said:

Knowing what we actually know IMHO it was a fast jump to 'missing'.

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I'm not sure that his quick conclusion was based on what we know. IMO, he probably does know more and benefits from knowing some of these people personally, especially LS.

It doesn't do any good to convince ourselves it has to be 5N because it just has to be. I still consider 5N and JW to be PsOI 1A and 1B.

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If she left 5N, why does it have to be just 5N or JW? If she left, doesn't a stranger abduction also become much more likely?

She was an intoxicated, petite girl. She would be an easy target, especially with no phone or shoes. Additionally, some witnesses, like KT, mentioned recognizing her from seeing her around even though he didn't know her - maybe someone else had taken notice of LS too, saw her alone and intoxicated, and took advantage.

sammi89 said:

I'm not sure that his quick conclusion was based on what we know. IMO, he probably does know more and benefits from knowing some of these people personally, especially LS.

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My point is knowing what we know. We know NOTHING to give him the benefit of the doubt. ...Unless you know him personally?

I don't care what vibes someone gets from thin air.

We can speculate until the cows come home to give him the benefit of the doubt of what he might've known or heard or felt. But we don't know.

In fact we could do the same for 5N but for some reason there's this divide where JW always gets the benefit of the doubt while 5N gets the exact opposite and in that case all speculation must go towards how 5N are guilty. It's a double standard.

If she left 5N, why does it have to be just 5N or JW? If she left, doesn't a stranger abduction also become much more likely?

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I didn't say it did.

But can it really hurt to take a more critical look at him rather than seeing how quickly excuses and apologies can be made for him?

akh said:

My point is knowing what we know. We know NOTHING to give him the benefit of the doubt. ...Unless you know him personally?

I don't care what vibes someone gets from thin air.

We can speculate until the cows come home to give him the benefit of the doubt of what he might've known or heard or felt. But we don't know.

In fact we could do the same for 5N but for some reason there's this divide where JW always gets the benefit of the doubt while 5N gets the exact opposite and in that case all speculation must go towards how 5N are guilty. It's a double standard.




I didn't say it did.

But can it really hurt to take a more critical look at him rather than seeing how quickly excuses and apologies can be made for him?

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Its not a double standard. We know that Lauren was with JR, MB and CR at points during that night. We know that she and CR are on video going back to his house and she could not stand. We know that JR and MB were the last people who saw her prior to her disappearance.
If any evidence comes out that implicates JW, I'm willing to bet that most people on here would reconsider theories and judge him with the same standard the 5N boys have been judged. At this point you're comparing apples and oranges. We don't know anything about JW's actions that night, but we do know that the 5N boys all interacted with Lauren, and that they were with her when she was in visibly bad shape.

holly18 said:

Its not a double standard. We know that Lauren was with JR, MB and CR at points during that night. We know that she and CR are on video going back to his house and she could not stand. We know that JR and MB were the last people who saw her prior to her disappearance.
If any evidence comes out that implicates JW, I'm willing to bet that most people on here would reconsider theories and judge him with the same standard the 5N boys have been judged. At this point you're comparing apples and oranges. We don't know anything about JW's actions that night, but we do know that the 5N boys all interacted with Lauren, and that they were with her when she was in visibly bad shape.

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IOW, we know they are lying and can't possibly be telling the truth. End of story.

We can't even assume just for the sake of argument that they might be telling the truth in any form, just to not overlook anything. Focus on 5N at all costs.

I'll never understand this closed door line of thinking. The only thing I can come up with is for some to question whether JW had a role in the disappearance would be to weaken and challenge some people's own certainty that 5N must be guilty.

akh said:

IOW, we know they are lying and can't possibly be telling the truth. End of story.

We can't even assume just for the sake of argument that they might be telling the truth in any form. Focus on 5N at all costs.

I'll never understand this closed door line of thinking. The only thing I can come up with is for some to question whether JW had a role in the disappearance would be to weaken and challenge some people's own certainty that 5N must be guilty.

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I can only speak for myself, but I come up with theories based off of the facts that we have. If we get information that JW was out and about after he said he was asleep, or something else in his story is false, then I'd be happy to focus on him and not 5N. I'm not certain that anyone at 5N is guilty, but all the evidence and information I've seen points to them. Again, if there is new information that points elsewhere I'd love to see it

holly18 said:

I can only speak for myself, but I come up with theories based off of the facts that we have. If we get information that JW was out and about after he said he was asleep, or something else in his story is false, then I'd be happy to focus on him and not 5N. I'm not certain that anyone at 5N is guilty, but all the evidence and information I've seen points to them. Again, if there is new information that points elsewhere I'd love to see it

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You'll never see it if you don't look for it.

akh said:

Meanwhile, how did he know she hadn't been home, slept, and left for the day and he'd just missed her? That is still a curious piece of this puzzle to me.

It's like when he should just be starting to wonder where she might be, he's already treating it like she's a missing person and a potential victim of foul play.

If we speculate he called all her friends and nobody had seen her that morning therefore she must be missing, then you still have to wonder how he got to the point that soon to be calling all her friends? And besides that, did she have to be with a friend JW could reach and not by herself or with someone who JW wouldn't know how to contact?

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Agreed. This is actually the first thing that got me interested in the case also - it stood out to me immediately as odd that she was reported missing so soon by the boyfriend. It's never really been explained, we just speculate as to why his worry escalated so quickly.

If the scenario we follow is his innocence and truthfulness with police, then perhaps he did hear about the fight through the grapevine. Supposedly the fight was ZO's concern over LS's condition, by some accounts. Perhaps witnesses to the fight (or those overhearing the fight, or second hand accounts) got in touch with him quickly. The next morning, he searches, can't find her, realizes phone is at Kilroy's (either picks it up or doesn't, unclear) and deduces through friend's account that she is in danger, calls parents and LE report is filed (by him? By two female friends we rarely hear about again? Also currently unclear.)

If the scenario we imagine is that he saw LS after she left 5N, in terrible condition, and she dies in his presence, and he does not take her to hospital - well, what next? (Complete speculation follows.) Perhaps... He panics. He chooses in a moment of fear to cover the truth. He contacts his father. He does something with body (now isn't that the true mystery here!) He spends morning convincing friends that he can't find LS. He contacts HT and goes to her room to find something/hide something/who knows. He gets text back from Kilroys, so he's located her phone. Friends are panicked by his prompting, agree that they've heard gossip about the fight and she's probably in trouble. They call LS's parents. Police report is filed.

Maybe?

From the bare facts, it is at least agreeable to me that he prompted the missing person's call very early on in the day. As a girl who partied in college, my own experience is that not one of my friends would be all that suspicious if they hadn't heard from by 4 pm after a night of partying, especially not when every one I knew lived in walking distance of each other, and I could have spent the night on any number of couches. I can see JW being panicked by stories he'd heard of the night before, and knowledge of her heart condition. Still, it's early.

akh said:

Obviously the police don't feel they have enough evidence to make a case against 5N (yet). And neither do the parents or else it would be a different civil case. What they do have, and what all might be lacking, we don't know. Even things that might be mitigating we don't know. But if it's not 5N then statistically JW would have to be at the top of the list in this type of crime.

It doesn't do any good to convince ourselves it has to be 5N because it just has to be. I still consider 5N and JW to be PsOI 1A and 1B.

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True. And they did feel they at least had enough reason to search JW's house and consider him a POI.

akh said:

You'll never see it if you don't look for it.

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I've been following this case since Lauren disappeared, and I read all the articles when they come out. If there is evidence that extends beyond various parents being connected, you seem to be one of the very few who knows about it.

akh said:

My point is knowing what we know. We know NOTHING to give him the benefit of the doubt. ...Unless you know him personally?

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This is the second post where someone has questioned whether I/other posters personally know JW because we think that it is unlikely based on the available information. I don't question whether you know 5N personally because you have proposed other theories/made excuses for them/etc. so let's move on.

In fact we could do the same for 5N but for some reason there's this divide where JW always gets the benefit of the doubt while 5N gets the exact opposite and in that case all speculation must go towards how 5N are guilty. It's a double standard.

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There were several posts in the last 2 pages alone suggesting different ways that JW may have been involved, including mine. I may find them unlikely, but I'm not sure why that matters. They are being posted. I asked you what your theory was when you first complained and you have yet to post one.

If not 5N, what are your thoughts?

I didn't say it did.

But can it really hurt to take a more critical look at him rather than seeing how quickly excuses and apologies can be made for him?

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I was only commenting on your POI 1A and 1B, which were 5N and JW. Stranger abduction would also be very possible if she left.

If you have a theory involving him, again, please post it.

Just want to say that at times I've found myself convinced that a certain POI is guilty (first CR, then JR/DB, then all three plus MB, etc.) Each time I have to remind myself that I don't actually know the truth, and my view is based on various media accounts combined with impressions I have of each POI. (For example, the look on CR's face in his mug shot. I mean, I have to say that for a while I just thought: that guy looks like a frat boy predator.) The reality is that I can be biased based on my impressions and own experiences, and to be objective, I have to return to square one - see things from another point of view, and lose my admittedly somewhat emotional attachments to certain theoretical outcomes.

For all the reasons, I think it's a good idea also to consider JW, with fresh perspective, if only on the search for something new we all may have missed.

One of my main motivators in interest in the case is the innocence of some of the POIs. Whichever ones (and hopefully there must be a few out of 10 or so POIs) are innocent, they sure have been put through a hell of time over this. Just last night on the FB "we want the truth" page a link to CR's employer was posted, and then group members were encouraged to leave reviews (that can't be deleted) on the employer's FB page. Now, it's personally hard for me to have any sympathy for CR, but let's just imagine that his story is true and he's innocent. I have to say that suspecting someone based on just believing so hard it must be true (as it seems some of the more outspoken members of the FB group do) is a dangerous and murky road that I consciously try to avoid.

Anyway, all that to say that I try for neutrality because the reality is that I simply don't know. I think stepping back and considering other possibilities is a great idea, and I've actually enjoyed stretching myself to see things from a different perspective. It's a great reminder that I sometimes discount things I should pay attention to. </tangent.>