CONVICTION OVERTURNED MD - Hae Min Lee, 17, Baltimore, 13 Jan 1999

This last episode was good, it was a lot about Adnan's point of view, but I was especially struck by what the judge said to him about being a manipulator, and it rang true to me. That Innocence Project attorney told SK that you she's not that lucky to have a master psychopath or whatever word she used, but psychopaths do exist in varying degrees, we discuss them at this forum all the time. So it's not so implausible that Adnan is that type of person. It would probably be a better story if he were innocent, but I'm doubting it.

I know there was some exculpatory testimony in the episode, but those kind of distant memories aren't much to hang on. And the part about discounting the payphone, I never really bought the 2:36 timeline limit for the murder. Well I never heard why the state insisted on that phone call, it didn't seem necessary. But disregarding that timeline, it just means Adnan had more time to commit the murder. It does also mean Jay's testimony is inconsistent, but it already was.

Speaking of Jay, it's odd to me how Adnan is so not angry when he discusses Jay. He even said at one point he doesn't want to accuse him because he knows what it's like to be falsely accused. Yet Jay did have something to do with it regardless of whether Adnan did. If Adnan is innocent, that just means Jay was involved in the murder either by himself or with someone else. Yet, Adnan shows little animosity towards him.

:twocents:

Smelly Squirrel said:

This last episode was good, it was a lot about Adnan's point of view, but I was especially struck by what the judge said to him about being a manipulator, and it rang true to me. That Innocence Project attorney told SK that you she's not that lucky to have a master psychopath or whatever word she used, but psychopaths do exist in varying degrees, we discuss them at this forum all the time. So it's not so implausible that Adnan is that type of person. It would probably be a better story if he were innocent, but I'm doubting it.

I know there was some exculpatory testimony in the episode, but those kind of distant memories aren't much to hang on. And the part about discounting the payphone, I never really bought the 2:36 timeline limit for the murder. Well I never heard why the state insisted on that phone call, it didn't seem necessary. But disregarding that timeline, it just means Adnan had more time to commit the murder. It does also mean Jay's testimony is inconsistent, but it already was.

Speaking of Jay, it's odd to me how Adnan is so not angry when he discusses Jay. He even said at one point he doesn't want to accuse him because he knows what it's like to be falsely accused. Yet Jay did have something to do with it regardless of whether Adnan did. If Adnan is innocent, that just means Jay was involved in the murder either by himself or with someone else. Yet, Adnan shows little animosity towards him.

:twocents:

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I'm with you. I don't buy the timeline, and I think the cell tower evidence is just useless for a lot of reasons.

It is strange that Adnan isn't angry with Jay. The only time Adnan seems angry at all is when SK tells him she believes him because he seems like a 'nice guy'.

I have a hard time believing that he's innocent, but I don't think his lawyer did a very good job at trial.

Yeah, I could still accept that he shouldn't have been convicted given the evidence.

Smelly Squirrel said:

Yeah, I could still accept that he shouldn't have been convicted given the evidence.

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I think his lawyer definitely made some mistakes.

What do you think about LE and the investigation? I mean, let's be honest, it's too late to reopen the investigation. At this point, no one can even positively say that there was a pay phone in the Best Buy parking lot. Not that that matters if the timeline is skewed, I'm just making a point.

If the appeal is successful, and this case goes back to trial they only have the original evidence to work with, correct?

Sorry to repeat myself, but I'm really on the ledge with this one. Sure, Adnan is a likeable guy, but that doesn't make him innocent. He had a lousy defense, doesn't make him innocent, but for some reason I want him to be innocent.

I'm hooked on this case too! I wish we had access to so much more info. The mysterious Mr. S is an intriguing character too. How did he stumble across the body wen some of the LEO couldn't even see it? I'd want to see pics of the site and just HOW much of her foot/hair was visible to the average person (and how much would be obvious to that of a person who just gulped a 40 oz �&#56860
On a personal note, my extended family ( aunt, uncles and cousins) all knew Adnan and his family personally. They were in the same American Pakistani Muslim
Community. All have said that Adnan is a very nice guy and of they all helped raise funds for his defense. They said the mother is a very simple lady and it's very tragic.

Also, there's a whole other level to this case that most people won't get unless you're a child of strict immigrant parents! We had to sneak around to do EVERYTHING! Lol. I think our parents try to preserve their own culture and are shell shocked at what is acceptable here. Us kids are put in a very difficult place because we want to respect our parents, culture, religion but we also want to "fit in."

Just listened to all of this over the last 2 weeks whilst flying to and from the UK. Very interesting stuff..

Surprised there isn't a big long thread about it here to be honest! Would have thought it'd be of huge interest to far more Websleuthers.

Right, going to go read this thread, and then a couple blogs about this. I'll be back!

Just an FYI that the appeal documents are online. There's definitely a info in them that isn't mentioned on the podcast so far. A quick Google search will bring them up (I'm on my phone or I'd find a link). Love to know what you guys think of a few things.

Rabia has made a new post on her blog and uploaded Jay and Jenn's police interview transcripts.

http://www.splitthemoon.com/?p=311#more-311


Thank you Rabia

Welp I am also hooked on this podcast. I think the state's case was weak, and that there was probably reasonable doubt , but I DO think Adnan is guilty.


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Gardenlady said:

Welp I am also hooked on this podcast. I think the state's case was weak, and that there was probably reasonable doubt , but I DO think Adnan is guilty.

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I'm just curious, what is it that makes you think Adnan is guilty? I'm sure there is evidence that hasn't been presented yet, but so far all I've read or heard is along the lines of, "Jay said Adnan told him this, Jay said Adnan did this, etc".

Oh yay .. I am LOVING this Podcast, I'm not convinced he is innocent at all, in fact he sounds guilty to me, but then I'm only going by the Podcast .. I haven't looked deeper into this case at all. I hope they do other cases after this one because I'm really enjoying the format!

Oh I just noticed they have announced a second season .. :yesss:

Can someone tell me when Adnan and Hae broke up? I cannot find much at all on the timeline of those events or when she started seeing Don. Also is there a copy of the letter that Hae wrote to Adnan about his reaction to the breakup? It says on the podcast that Hae and her friend scribbled silly messages to each other on the back, yet the note was found at Adnan's house .. wouldn't this be significant, why were the girls writing on the back of a letter meant for Adnan, how did he get it .. did he write 'I will kill' on the top? I think this goes a long way to show motive, yet there is no copy of it anywhere on the site that I can find. I believe Jay, but think it's possible he minimised his involvement.

The note was indeed found at Adnan's house. He and the other girl were writing back and forth on the back of it during a class.

There IS a copy of the letter out there, maybe try reddit /r/serialpodcast ? I have to run or I would go grab it for you!

Like you I think the note and Hae's description of Adnan's reaction show his motive. Also like you, I believe jay but also suspect he minimized his involvement.


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Aha here it is:

http://m.imgur.com/a/poack


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Thanks Gardenlady!! So I just read it and it's clear he wasn't taking the breakup too well .. and since this was November that only leaves a few weeks until she was killed

Episode 11 'dropped' today, SK mentions a rumour at the beginning that she decides not to mention again, and there is some story about Adnad stealing money from the mosque.

Here is my issue. It's nearly impossible to find any of the facts of this case online, and we're not getting the key points on the Podcast. Actually the podcast is avoiding the key facts or rushing past them so fast you can't grasp them, then returns to focussing on how a 'nice guy' like Adnan couldn't have done it .. sorry, but I'm not buying that.

Here are what I think are the key details which are hard to find.

Adnan's police interview
Jay's police interview
Trial transcripts
Where / how was Hae Min's car found
What details did Jay have for the police that were substantiated
Dates of the breakup / Hae starts seeing Don / Adnan's reaction etc ..
Timelines .. timeline of the day, timeline of the key dates .. a real timeline!!!!

Anyway, I'm glad it's nearly over because it's infuriating now. Completely one sided. Of course Adnan says he's innocent, and just because he's somewhat personable doesn't mean a lot, and actually as time goes on he's becoming less 'personable' IMO.

At serialpodcast.org there is a timeline and other posts including a hand drawn maps by Jay during his police interview:
http://serialpodcast.org/posts

At Rabia Chaudry's blog splitthemoon.com there are transcripts of police interviews and much more: http://www.splitthemoon.com/?p=311#more-311

Another legal blog, viewfromll2.com has a much more detailed timeline linked to cell phone records:
http://viewfromll2.com/2014/11/23/s...tements-provided-by-adnan-jay-jenn-and-cathy/

My take after listening to the podcasts and reading these and other sources is that the ONLY evidence against Adnan are Jay's statements that "Adnan said this" and "Adnan did that". Jenn gave evidence that she saw JAY wipe shovels clean and throw away all the clothing he was wearing that day, but her only evidence against Adnan are statements she heard from Jay, which is hearsay. Jenn made her statements to the police only after being called in for questioning because of the high number of calls to her phone from Adnan's cell phone on the day in question, when she felt she was under suspicion. Neither she nor anyone else ever implied that the calls from Adnan's cell to her phone were made by anyone other than Jay while Jay had both Adnan's car and phone.

quesarita said:

At serialpodcast.org there is a timeline and other posts including a hand drawn maps by Jay during his police interview:
http://serialpodcast.org/posts

At Rabia Chaudry's blog splitthemoon.com there are transcripts of police interviews and much more: http://www.splitthemoon.com/?p=311#more-311

Another legal blog, viewfromll2.com has a much more detailed timeline linked to cell phone records:
http://viewfromll2.com/2014/11/23/s...tements-provided-by-adnan-jay-jenn-and-cathy/

My take after listening to the podcasts and reading these and other sources is that the ONLY evidence against Adnan are Jay's statements that "Adnan said this" and "Adnan did that". Jenn gave evidence that she saw JAY wipe shovels clean and throw away all the clothing he was wearing that day, but her only evidence against Adnan are statements she heard from Jay, which is hearsay. Jenn made her statements to the police only after being called in for questioning because of the high number of calls to her phone from Adnan's cell phone on the day in question, when she felt she was under suspicion. Neither she nor anyone else ever implied that the calls from Adnan's cell to her phone were made by anyone other than Jay while Jay had both Adnan's car and phone.

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I agree. BTW..it was only one shovel..

Facts:

-All calls surrounding the murder time and area were placed by Jay to his friends..but most of the calls were to Jenn..
Note: the only call that was placed to a friend of Adnan was to Nisha..she had no specific recollection regarding that call + her number was the first one on speed dialing + in 1999 they calculated the minutes for a call on a cell phone from the second you click "send or dial or call" this would include the ringing time . So it's quite possible that Jay touched the button that signified her number by mistake ..the phone could have been on the seat next to him..so he himself was unaware that he dialed Nisha by mistake..the phone kept ringing for a long time..maybe no one answered..or maybe someone answered then hung up. It's a possibility.

+

-All calls surrounding the burial/car ditching time and area were placed by Jay to Jenn

+

-Jay asked Jenn NOT Adnan to take him to the shovel to wipe off his fingerprints (note: Jay told detective Ritz in his interview on 2/28/99 that they might find dirt in Adnan's car because A shovel was in there..he also referred to a single shovel when he talked about getting "a pick and a shovel" from his home)..for some reason I noticed that some sites are referring to "shovelS" It was only one shovel according to the TS of Jay's interview with the police. If he was just helping Adnan with the burial as he claimed..then why didn't he go with Adnan to the dumpster..why ask Jenn?!!!!

+

-Jay asked Jenn NOT Adnan to take him to the site to get rid of his clothes/boots. According to Jay he dumped his jeans..wool plaid coat..and WORKING boots..why would he do that if he never touched Hae..if he never did any digging?? Why did he have WORKING boots on in the first place?

+

-Jay provided a FALSE alibi that he was at Jenn's house from 1:00 pm to 3:45 pm.

None of the calls that he placed or received pinged the tower that covers Jenn's house where he supposedly was from around 1:00 pm until 3:45 pm. In fact based on the cell tower data a compelling case can be made that he was in the area around the time Hae went missing/murdered. In addition..he actually called Jenn during that period of time where he was supposedly at Jenn's.

+

-In Jay's police interview on 2/28/99..IMO he slipped..he said that Adnan was talking to a police officer..then after the call he told him "Hae didn't pick up her cousin from school and they are looking for her". If he just told Jay that he killed Hae and showed him her body in the trunk of her car and they drove to i 70 Park/Ride to leave her car there..would Adnan tell him "Hae didn't pick up her cousin from school"?? Even the detective wondered about that..but IMO swept it under the rug! He let Jay got away with a lot of BS..for example he told the detective that he met Adnan on Edmondson ave (not Best Buy)..the detective told him that it's a very long street..he didn't know the name of the crossing street he supposedly met Adnan at..even the detective asked him how did he get there and what direction did Adnan give him? Jay replied that he simply knew because he's familiar with the area. The detective let it go..

+

-All calls that were confirmed to have been placed by Adnan pinged around the school area..in Cathy's home area..and at Adnan's house and Mosque area..

+

-Jay lied REPEATEDLY about where he initially met Adnan where he supposedly showed him the body. In one interview he said he met Adnan on Edmondson ave where he showed him the body in the trunk of her car..in another interview he stated that he met Adnan at Best Buy where Adnan showed him the body in the trunk of her car..in another interview he stated that he met Adnan in Patapsco State park where Adnan murdered Hae. This is a sign of fabrication.

+

-Jenn lied about the timeline giving Jay an alibi..lied about who answered the phone call that pinged at Leakin Park..

+

Jenn consulted with Jay who sent her with instructions on what to tell the police..

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What picture do you see?

What I see: Adnan is innocent.

I am hooked on this podcast and am awaiting the last episode. I can't make a judgement on if Adnan is guilty as each week I change my mind. In saying that I believe there are so many flaws in this case it's almost unbelievable that it was allowed to go to trial.

Yup. I am into the podcast as well.

General Thoughts:
1. I am super happy that this podcast has so many listeners, because 1) I love podcasts and 2) I love true crime.
2. I kind of wish Koenig focused more on the trials than on the characters. I agree with Seabreeze1: I feel my assumptions of Adnan's guilt waver with each episode, which I think is just good story telling. However, I personally am more concerned with "did he commit this murder beyond reasonable doubt."
2a. I feel like the fact that the detectives are pretty darn sure they got the right person makes me sway in their direction.
2b. I am very sympathetic towards wrongful convictions. I really feel quite strongly that people should not be convicted of crimes unless
there is overwhelming evidence that the accused committed the crime.
3. Why have we heard so little about the physical evidence?
4. I think (but I'm not sure) that homicides in which the victim is strangled to death are more likely to be committed a) by people who are closely tied to the victim (or a serial killer) and b) by people who have not planned the murder in advance.
--These points regarding the method of homicide lead me to simultaneously believe that Adnan did it, and that Jay's story is BS. Which again leaves me in the reasonable doubt category--- if Jay's testimony is true, this was premeditated, but the method of homicide doesn't fit with that story.
....I just wish they had a behavioral psychologist on who researches methods of homicide. I get that patterns of homicide do not necessarily apply to every case. There is individual variation. However, I would like some more macro-level investigation.

Thanks for reading!
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