For Those Who Do Not Think Avery was Framed & Evidence Planted - Discuss

I'm completely convinced of his guilt. I too feel that he thought he was untouchable when he committed this murder. He was meeting all these powerful people and having a bill named after him. Some say that's why he wouldn't do this because he had so much going for him. I on the other hand feel it's just who he is. He knew he would be able to claim they framed him, only it didn't work. There is nothing normal about dousing a cat in gas and throwing it on a fire. That IMO is a show of true colors and just plain sick.

While I can not nail down exactly what happened, I can say the totality of evidence is beyond a reasonable doubt. Is it beyond all doubt? Absolutely not. What I've noticed while reading opinions on this case is that people try and single out each piece of evidence and explain it away. That is wrong IMO, in every case excuses and reasons can be made for single pieces of evidence. What does the whole picture look like though? That's what matters.

It's much more reasonable for me to conclude that AC was checking his info on her car when he called about the plate than to say he stumbled on a vehicle of a girl that had been missing 3 days, hours after she was reported missing and before anyone else. That a perfect situation to frame SA landed in his lap. The same explanation is also more reasonable IMO than her ex or brother having ACs number and calling him personally about finding the car, rather than the guys actually working THs missing person report.

The bones in the burn pile is what does it completely for me. I believe he pulled a couple of the larger bones out of the pile and left the fragments that weren't clearly identifiable as bones. Why else would someone else have gathered all the tiny fragments enough that there was a piece of every bone in her skeleton from the neck down (teeth and jean rivets included) and left or placed the larger ones elsewhere? A long bone and collarbone were in the burn barrel and the pelvic bone was at the quarry. I mean it's clear that it wasn't obvious bones were in the pit, it went unnoticed for days during searches. Even looking at pictures, most people would never know those fragments were bones. Not to mention her personal belongings were burned in his burn barrel.

The bleach used in that garage is a huge one too. Its hard to believe looking at the pictures that bleach had ever been used to clean anything in that filthy garage, besides that night.

There is just an over whelming amount of coincidences that had to occur during this time frame to prove SAs innocence.
He just happened to have a bonfire burning tires the night TH went missing and her body was burned.
He just happened to spill something on the floor of his garage that needed to be cleaned with bleach.
He just happened to get a large cut capable of bleeding a lot on his hand.
He just happened to be unlucky enough to be framed by the police and the real killer?

Those are a few of my thoughts.

That is pretty much what I think too. I don't feel that it was a crime of opportunity. I feel it was pre-meditated murder. He was/is a cunning and dangerous person.

He purchased the leg restraints the day before her second last visit. Was he considering putting his plan into action then? He claims to have purchased them to use on Jodi, but she still had months to serve out her sentence. Why not purchase them when she was out, or just before? It is too much of a coincidence for me,that he purchased them the day before a young girl was coming to his property and this same girl was found dead outside his trailer a few weeks later.
 
I read this last night in the DECISION AND ORDER ON STATE'S MOTION TO ALLOW THE INTRODUCTIONOF NINE ITEMS OF OTHER ACTS EVIDENCE...

Specifically, the Court has taken into consideration the extensive publicity this case has received, including news reports on filings in
the Clerk of Courts office, as well as the defendant's stated desire to have his case tried by a jury composed of Manitowoc County residents if possible.

Can anyone shed some light on this? In my opinion, he was just setting himself up for a "the jury pool is tainted" position, but I'm wondering if this is common practice or out of the ordinary.

If it were me, I wouldn't want Manitowoc County residents because I would think they have been tainted by the media coverage. I would want it tried in--lets say Madison County and hope to get someone who had not heard about the case.
 
He lost me at "threw cat in fire".

Honestly, the fad of heavily edited "injustice *advertiser censored*" is starting to make me feel like I'm living in bizarro world, after so many years of following true crime.
Just piping in to say 'great post' and that his thread is a breath of fresh air. If LE really did frame SA, why did they go through the trouble of burning her remains on his property (right outside his door no less)? They could have just dumped her body, her belongings and her SUV anywhere on that property and still had a case against this guy. Why would they take the chance that her remains would not be identifiable by burning her body? It just doesn't make any sense. It also bothers me that now people are sleuthing other people related to this case (i.e., Teresa's ex boyfriend is one good example) that have absolutely no evidence connecting them to SA's property or Teresa's murder. I would hate to see a truly innocent person get caught up in all this nonsense thanks to unsubstantiated message board conspiracy theories.
 
I read this last night in the DECISION AND ORDER ON STATE'S MOTION TO ALLOW THE INTRODUCTIONOF NINE ITEMS OF OTHER ACTS EVIDENCE...

Specifically, the Court has taken into consideration the extensive publicity this case has received, including news reports on filings in
the Clerk of Courts office, as well as the defendant's stated desire to have his case tried by a jury composed of Manitowoc County residents if possible.

Can anyone shed some light on this? In my opinion, he was just setting himself up for a "the jury pool is tainted" position, but I'm wondering if this is common practice or out of the ordinary.

If it were me, I wouldn't want Manitowoc County residents because I would think they have been tainted by the media coverage. I would want it tried in--lets say Madison County and hope to get someone who had not heard about the case.
Well thats interesting...hmm!

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Just piping in to say 'great post' and that his thread is a breath of fresh air. If LE really did frame SA, why did they go through the trouble of burning her remains on his property (right outside his door no less)? They could have just dumped her body, her belongings and her SUV anywhere on that property and still had a case against this guy. Why would they take the chance that her remains would not be identifiable by burning her body? It just doesn't make any sense. It also bothers me that now people are sleuthing other people related to this case (i.e., Teresa's ex boyfriend is one good example) that have absolutely no evidence connecting them to SA's property or Teresa's murder. I would hate to see a truly innocent person get caught up in all this nonsense thanks to unsubstantiated message board conspiracy theories.
Colborn & Lenk are the biggest targets when it comes to the framing conspiracy. Neither of them were involved in the wrongful conviction and prior to the murder, Lenk agreed that Avery was entitled to compensation.

Conspiracy theorists overlook that when initially speaking to Avery on the 3rd & 4th, both were of the opinion that he wasn't involved. The imagination has to stretch beyond reasonable thought to believe they set him up.
 
Here are my musings:

For me, I just see Avery for what he is, which is not a very nice guy who was and still is, if released, totally capable of killing people. When you hear a story about this "poor innocent" guy who spent 18 years in prison for a rape he didn't commit you think oh my gosh, how horrible. And, it is. But, he wasn't truly innocent. Six of those 18 years he was concurrently serving a sentence for assaulting a woman. You never hear that. Filmmakers and big Avery supporters try and brush his criminal history under the rug but the reality is that he was a young man who was unable to go more than about a year at a time without getting caught committing crimes. And, the crimes were escalating in nature. First it's robbery, then it's animal cruelty and then assault. It's not a big stretch to rape and/or murder with that criminal history.

I also disregard any arguments about how he was framed to avoid a big judgment in Avery's civil case. People act as if because he asked for millions of dollars he was going to get that much. There recently was a case in Wisconsin of a man who could show that the police planted evidence (oddly, his name was Avery too) and a civil jury gave him very little as a result. Avery was never going to get $30 plus million dollars and even if he had it's not as though that money was going to come out of the detectives pockets.

If the police had been desperate to get Avery back in prison they could have planted heroin, a handgun, or something else on his property or in the trailer far easier than either actually killing Theresa themselves or lucking into someone else killing her and disposing of her body on his property. And, as it turns out, they didn't even have to plant a firearm because he already had one despite being a felon and knowing he couldn't. Huh, big surprise that not even out of prison two years and he was committing more crimes. Currently, he is properly in prison serving time for being a felon in possession of a firearm so I'll worry about Avery being wrongfully in prison again in another year when he'd be due to be released if he hadn't been convicted for Theresa's murder.

I also see the phone calls as just a huge red flag. That he was always specifically requesting Theresa, that he purposely tried to make her uncomfortable by opening the door in just a towel, that he gave his sister's name when he called to request her, that he called her repeatedly but blocked his phone number, etc. just really starts to add up to something not being right.

And then there's Brendan. Although I believe some of what he told the police maybe have been fabricated, I don't believe the overall gist of what he said was. I feel bad for him because he was a kid with a crappy uncle who pulled him into something he was wholly unable to handle. He probably didn't feel he had a choice but to go long with what was happening, be it killing Theresa or just being involved in burning her body, but instead of arguing that, he chose to confess and then recant.

I let time get away from me. I'm late getting the kids in bed but I'll be sure to check back later to see what others think.

I so agree with all of this! Thank you for posting what I have been thinking.
 
Does anyone have any opinions on how Avery transferred his blood in this particular area?

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(Assuming there is no planting of blood evidence)

IF he had his hand with the bleeding finger near that spot (like turning on or off the ignition), and that part of his finger was in contact with that part of the console at the time his finger had blood on it, he deposited his blood.
 
(Assuming there is no planting of blood evidence)

IF he had his hand with the bleeding finger near that spot (like turning on or off the ignition), and that part of his finger was in contact with that part of the console at the time his finger had blood on it, he deposited his blood.
Thanks Madeleine74!

My daughter and I have done several experiments trying to figure out which part of his finger produced this shape.

We think it has come from the outside of his hand. If you close your right hand, as if you were holding a key, you will notice where the crease on your palm extends to the outside. With a closed hand this crease forms a small peak. This peak, with a crease in the middle, matches with the pointy bit on the blood smear.

Hope i am explaining this clearly. I will try to capture a pic of it. We were quiet shocked at how much it looks like it.
 
This is what we could manage. We had problems with lighting, but hopefully you see what I mean. On the left is my daughter's hand an the other is mine.

As you can see, she has a short peak (for want of a better word) and mine is long and narrow. I think this explains why the blood looks pooled in two spots due to the crease.

8a7fb7d2f4fd3275c2b2d925faff662a.jpg
 
I posted a link to these podcasts in the media thread. Thought I would post them, here, as well. Still listening to the first "Real Crime Profile" podcast. Have listened to "The Dockett." These are purely opinion pieces but definitely interesting.

Real Crime Profile, hosted by two ex-FBI profilers:


The Dockett, hosted by two Canadian Attorneys:

 
This is what we could manage. We had problems with lighting, but hopefully you see what I mean. On the left is my daughter's hand an the other is mine.

As you can see, she has a short peak (for want of a better word) and mine is long and narrow. I think this explains why the blood looks pooled in two spots due to the crease.

:shocked2: Those really are eerily similar to the shape of the blood smear aren't they?
I think you're definitely onto something there.

For my own benefit, I need to digest just how likely it is that blood from a cut finger would travel to that part of his hand (I don't recall there being evidence of a cut in that location) and whether that's a likely area to brush with the outside part of the hand (I suspect it may be if you were struggling with the ignition) . . . but you've almost got me convinced on this one.
 
My issue is wondering how blood from a cut 3rd finger could seep over to the outside of the hand and SA not realize or notice that. If SA had cut the side of his pinky finger then yes, I could envision how blood could get to that area of his hand without him being aware.

However, based on where the cut occurred on SA's (3rd) finger, I'm not able to realistically see the blood flowing down/over his hand to the outside and him not know about it. Sure, it's possible, but that seems to be more on the unlikely side for me.
 
:shocked2: Those really are eerily similar to the shape of the blood smear aren't they?
I think you're definitely onto something there.

For my own benefit, I need to digest just how likely it is that blood from a cut finger would travel to that part of his hand (I don't recall there being evidence of a cut in that location) and whether that's a likely area to brush with the outside part of the hand (I suspect it may be if you were struggling with the ignition) . . . but you've almost got me convinced on this one.
We were shocked too when we were experimenting! It was a significant cut that dripped blood not only in the car, but in his bathroom.

My son is an apprentice butcher and he cut his finger at work one morning. I was showing him our little experiment and asked him if he thought the blood would reach that part of the hand. He said it was very likely because when he injured himself the blood ran down past his wrist, but he had been holding it upright and wasn't moving it around.

I feel it seeped from the cut and down his palm. All he had to do was move his hand around. Most people would tend to it sooner but I guess he had things to do.

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I found this on google. This person has cut her index finger. I just wanted to demonstrate how easy the blood would flow, depending how you move the hand around.

a47cb6442292c284c64c621dfe8eeb00.jpg
 
I agree that it's easy for blood to flow around and quite quickly from a cut, even what may seem a relatively small cut. What I'm not sure is how likely it would be for Avery to not notice blood flowing to the outside of his hand from a cut on the 3rd finger. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm simply wondering how likely it would be for him to not notice it.
 
Either he didn't care (he intended to crush the car) or it was dark and didn't realise how much of his blood he left behind. My opinion is at the time, his full intention was to crush the car.



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If he left that blood, as it appears, I believe he didn't realize it. I'm assuming it was dark out and that would make it harder to notice such a thing. As for the crusher, it does make sense that such a tool would be eventually utilized to get rid of that big piece of evidence. Any thoughts as to the ability of one person alone being able to maneuver and manage getting a car into the crusher?
 
I found this on google. This person has cut her index finger. I just wanted to demonstrate how easy the blood would flow, depending how you move the hand around.

a47cb6442292c284c64c621dfe8eeb00.jpg

This isn't exactly accurate though. I cut my hand pretty terribly this past year and required 26 stitches. They rinse the area with all kinds of stuff before suturing and after. In this picture the sutures are already there being that blood is very watered down. I remember how my mother-in-law took a picture of my hand immediately after they finished suturing and it looked far worse then when I went in due to all the watered down blood covering my hand and everything on the tray.

I'm not debating that the cut on his finger couldn't have produced that much blood just pointing out that this picture would not be an accurate representation of the amount of blood a cut that size would produce without going through the cleaning and suturing process.
 
Either he didn't care (he intended to crush the car) or it was dark and didn't realise how much of his blood he left behind. My opinion is at the time, his full intention was to crush the car.



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I'm definitely with you on the original intent being to crush the car - and timing / potential witnesses / other circumstances got in the way of following through with it.
And the similarity between the shape of those blood stains is just too much of a coincidence for me to ignore.

I don't doubt the amount of blood that could come from a cut like that nor that it could flow over the hand.
I cut my finger opening a tin of something years ago. Only a small half inch cut, but deep - and believe me, my kitchen could have passed as a crime scene immediately afterwards!

What I'm trying to think about is :

a) What orientation would your hand have to be in for blood to flow in that particular direction?
and
b) If there was enough blood flow for that to happen, wouldn't there be more blood stains in other parts of the car beyond what was discovered?

The only scenario which I can see fitting with the known facts is perhaps a rag or cloth wrapped around the hand to contain the bleeding - that would account for the relatively small amount of blood and also the paucity of fingerprints (from the right hand anyway). Is it feasible that blood could seep beneath a wrapping and find itself on that area at the outside of the hand?

This is still the best and most plausible explanation that I've seen proposed for that stain though (still shocked by the similarity in shape!)
Excellent work Limaes :clap:
 

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