For Those Who Do Not Think Avery was Framed & Evidence Planted - Discuss

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Limaes said:
We were shocked too when we were experimenting! It was a significant cut that dripped blood not only in the car, but in his bathroom.

My son is an apprentice butcher and he cut his finger at work one morning. I was showing him our little experiment and asked him if he thought the blood would reach that part of the hand. He said it was very likely because when he injured himself the blood ran down past his wrist, but he had been holding it upright and wasn't moving it around.

I feel it seeped from the cut and down his palm. All he had to do was move his hand around. Most people would tend to it sooner but I guess he had things to do.

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This is very compelling and I appreciate that you provided a plausible explanation for how his blood was transferred to that particular area in the car.
 
slashkiss said:
This isn't exactly accurate though. I cut my hand pretty terribly this past year and required 26 stitches. They rinse the area with all kinds of stuff before suturing and after. In this picture the sutures are already there being that blood is very watered down. I remember how my mother-in-law took a picture of my hand immediately after they finished suturing and it looked far worse then when I went in due to all the watered down blood covering my hand and everything on the tray.

I'm not debating that the cut on his finger couldn't have produced that much blood just pointing out that this picture would not be an accurate representation of the amount of blood a cut that size would produce without going through the cleaning and suturing process.
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Great point slashkiss! I didn't think of that when I saw the pic.

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Madeleine74 said:
If he left that blood, as it appears, I believe he didn't realize it. I'm assuming it was dark out and that would make it harder to notice such a thing. As for the crusher, it does make sense that such a tool would be eventually utilized to get rid of that big piece of evidence. Any thoughts as to the ability of one person alone being able to maneuver and manage getting a car into the crusher?
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I'm guessing usually one person to operate the tractor and another to operate the crusher although its possible for one person to do both.

Its interesting that they don't always crush just one car at a time. As this video shows, once the third car is crushed, you can not even see the 2nd one. Makes you wonder if that is what may have happened if Pam didn't find the car.

https://youtu.be/QuvPWGfAyo0

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I'm in the camp that believes SA murdered Ms. Halbach, though I disagree with the prosecution's narrative. Why? Due to the gross lack of evidence required to support his narrative. One that, by the way, was in part, the result of a coerced confession of a mentally challenged teen.

So, ignoring the lurid faux narrative that, afaics, arose from none other than a sexual predator's mind [see footnotes], the most damning evidence, imho, are the cremains. While I believe the key & slug may have been planted to bolster the prosecution's case, I do not believe the cremains, her SUV, or his blood were planted.

Moreover, while not presented to the jury, SA does have a history of behavior that arguably fits with the crime. For example, the cat incident, running his cousin's car off the road, brandishing a gun, and wholly inappropriate public sexual displays. Furthermore, a younger relative had come forward prior to Ms. Halbach's death, alleging he sexually abused her. That I understand, the case never made it to court bc they were trying the murder case. In other words, SA has long shown chronic inappropriate behavior towards women, to include coming to the door in a towel, as reported by one of Ms. Halbach's co-workers.

As for Ms. Halbach's murder? I have long felt he followed her, made a pass, she refused his advances, and in anger, he struck out, accidentally killing her. That is, I do not think she was murdered in his trailer or garage, or even shot, or that her murder was in any way, shape or form, premeditated. Rather, it was the heat of the moment blitz attack coming from someone with little, to no, impulse control. To my mind this explains the smears of her blood in the trunk of her car. Importantly, as has been noted elsewhere, SA has a very low IQ. Within the context of this case, this means he would not think everything through. So, in attempt to hide the evidence (her body), he burned her remains in his back yard and hid her vehicle as opposed to crushing it. This is congruent with someone who does not think very far ahead.

And finally, the retired FBI profiler in the 'Real Crime Profile' podcast, that I linked above, provided a very plausible explanation regarding why the cremains were found in multiple locations, as well as why there was no smell of burning flesh, etcetera. These, by the way, were the biggest problems that I, personally, had with the case. Especially the cremains found at the Radnant quarry. However, if, as this man suggests, her remains were not completely destroyed, I could see him putting those in the burn barrel, as well as trying to empty the barrel in the quarry. It would also go a long way to explain why one of the cadaver dogs hit on the golf cart (i.e., he used the cart to carry the barrel to the quarry).

That being said, while I have no problem considering alternative scenarios that do not involve SA, in all, and unless Zellner finds something that actually exonerates this man, I will continue to believe he is the killer.

And finally, while I do believe he is the killer, I also think he did not get a fair trial.

Footnotes:

1. The prosecutor admitted he was a sex addict [see page 15 of OLR disciplinary hearing]

2. The prosecutor showed a persistent pattern of sexually harassing women [see page 10 of OLR disciplinary hearing]

3. The prosecutor put on an offensive media show while completely ignoring the feelings and privacy of the Halbach family.

4. Sexual addictions do not spring up over night, the prosecutor's protestations notwithstanding.​
 
shadowraiths said:
And finally, the retired FBI profiler in the 'Real Crime Profile' podcast, that I linked above, provided a very plausible explanation regarding why the cremains were found in multiple locations, as well as why there was no smell of burning flesh, etcetera. These, by the way, were the biggest problems that I, personally, had with the case. Especially the cremains found at the Radnant quarry. However, if, as this man suggests, her remains were not completely destroyed, I could see him putting those in the burn barrel, as well as trying to empty the barrel in the quarry. It would also go a long way to explain why one of the cadaver dogs hit on the golf cart (i.e., he used the cart to carry the barrel to the quarry).
Click to expand...



shadowraiths... is this in episode 2? I really don't have the time to listen to them all but will try to listen later because I have seen some discussion elsewhere about this too (debunking his theory), but I would like to hear it for myself :)
 
missy1974 said:
shadowraiths... is this in episode 2? I really don't have the time to listen to them all but will try to listen later because I have seen some discussion elsewhere about this too (debunking his theory), but I would like to hear it for myself :)
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I listened to them back to back, so I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure it's episode 2.
 
shadowraiths said:

4. Sexual addictions do not spring up over night, the prosecutor's protestations notwithstanding.​
Click to expand...

With regards to Kratz you might be right. However, I think it's important to note that there are prescription drugs that can cause addictions, such as shopping, gambling and hyper sexuality in people who previously have shown no such addictions or even tendencies. It's actually pretty shocking when you read about it. We don't tend to think of those kind of things as side effects but they are and it's for a multitude of drugs, not just one.
 
shadowraiths said:
I posted a link to these podcasts in the media thread. Thought I would post them, here, as well. Still listening to the first "Real Crime Profile" podcast. Have listened to "The Dockett." These are purely opinion pieces but definitely interesting.

Real Crime Profile, hosted by two ex-FBI profilers:


The Dockett, hosted by two Canadian Attorneys:

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I have just listened to the discussion regarding the separate locations of the bones and the blood & fingerprints.

His explanation of the bones is the most plausible scenario I have come across. I believe he is correct.

He also raised a good point about the key. The key fob wasn't hers! That would explain why her DNA wasn't on it. Certainly food for thought!

Regarding the blood and no fingerprints. He could have worn a glove on his left hand and wrapped his injured hand in some sort of bandage/rag. It would explain why blood was still seeping but no fingerprints were left. It would also explain how his DNA was on the hood latch. People have said that they have rubbed something Avery was wearing on the hood latch to plant his DNA. If he was wearing a bandage/rag then he transferred it himself.

Thanks for the link shadowraiths

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IMO,

Makes no sense..

Let me stick a glove on my left hand and be "so" careful and just wrap the other cuz it's seeping blood/wounded??

I get the glove probably wouldn't fit over a rag, however to think " I need gloves " wouldn't he do a better job than a rag?

But then of course this makes sense for the DNA but no print theory, IMO
Limaes said:
I have just listened to the discussion regarding the separate locations of the bones and the blood & fingerprints.

His explanation of the bones is the most plausible scenario I have come across. I believe he is correct.

He also raised a good point about the key. The key fob wasn't hers! That would explain why her DNA wasn't on it. Certainly food for thought!

Regarding the blood and no fingerprints. He could have worn a glove on his left hand and wrapped his injured hand in some sort of bandage/rag. It would explain why blood was still seeping but no fingerprints were left. It would also explain how his DNA was on the hood latch. People have said that they have rubbed something Avery was wearing on the hood latch to plant his DNA. If he was wearing a bandage/rag then he transferred it himself.

Thanks for the link shadowraiths

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
 
I know drugs can cause MANIA ( certain drugs, that is )

leading to; addiction,
be it gambling, shopping, alcohol, etc.
Itsmevkb said:
With regards to Kratz you might be right. However, I think it's important to note that there are prescription drugs that can cause addictions, such as shopping, gambling and hyper sexuality in people who previously have shown no such addictions or even tendencies. It's actually pretty shocking when you read about it. We don't tend to think of those kind of things as side effects but they are and it's for a multitude of drugs, not just one.
Click to expand...
 
Limaes said:
This is what we could manage. We had problems with lighting, but hopefully you see what I mean. On the left is my daughter's hand an the other is mine.

As you can see, she has a short peak (for want of a better word) and mine is long and narrow. I think this explains why the blood looks pooled in two spots due to the crease.

8a7fb7d2f4fd3275c2b2d925faff662a.jpg
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Wow! That's incredible!!
 
Limaes said:
Either he didn't care (he intended to crush the car) or it was dark and didn't realise how much of his blood he left behind. My opinion is at the time, his full intention was to crush the car.



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I tend to agree with this!
 
Why do you think, in your opinion, if you have thought about this

did LE keep the coroner away,
nearly all photo's of bones and/or the " pit " are non existent,
why no EXPERT examination of crime scene and bones before they were moved? Even first responders ( so to speak ) wouldn't photograph. When asked why, they responded with something like the crime scene had been altered.

I DO value your opinion & knowledge when it comes to such things =) I am asking because of you saying the cremains were a big deal for you. Wondering what your take is on this? Thanks!
shadowraiths said:
I'm in the camp that believes SA murdered Ms. Halbach, though I disagree with the prosecution's narrative. Why? Due to the gross lack of evidence required to support his narrative. One that, by the way, was in part, the result of a coerced confession of a mentally challenged teen.

So, ignoring the lurid faux narrative that, afaics, arose from none other than a sexual predator's mind [see footnotes], the most damning evidence, imho, are the cremains. While I believe the key & slug may have been planted to bolster the prosecution's case, I do not believe the cremains, her SUV, or his blood were planted.

Moreover, while not presented to the jury, SA does have a history of behavior that arguably fits with the crime. For example, the cat incident, running his cousin's car off the road, brandishing a gun, and wholly inappropriate public sexual displays. Furthermore, a younger relative had come forward prior to Ms. Halbach's death, alleging he sexually abused her. That I understand, the case never made it to court bc they were trying the murder case. In other words, SA has long shown chronic inappropriate behavior towards women, to include coming to the door in a towel, as reported by one of Ms. Halbach's co-workers.

As for Ms. Halbach's murder? I have long felt he followed her, made a pass, she refused his advances, and in anger, he struck out, accidentally killing her. That is, I do not think she was murdered in his trailer or garage, or even shot, or that her murder was in any way, shape or form, premeditated. Rather, it was the heat of the moment blitz attack coming from someone with little, to no, impulse control. To my mind this explains the smears of her blood in the trunk of her car. Importantly, as has been noted elsewhere, SA has a very low IQ. Within the context of this case, this means he would not think everything through. So, in attempt to hide the evidence (her body), he burned her remains in his back yard and hid her vehicle as opposed to crushing it. This is congruent with someone who does not think very far ahead.

And finally, the retired FBI profiler in the 'Real Crime Profile' podcast, that I linked above, provided a very plausible explanation regarding why the cremains were found in multiple locations, as well as why there was no smell of burning flesh, etcetera. These, by the way, were the biggest problems that I, personally, had with the case. Especially the cremains found at the Radnant quarry. However, if, as this man suggests, her remains were not completely destroyed, I could see him putting those in the burn barrel, as well as trying to empty the barrel in the quarry. It would also go a long way to explain why one of the cadaver dogs hit on the golf cart (i.e., he used the cart to carry the barrel to the quarry).

That being said, while I have no problem considering considering alternative scenarios that do not involve SA, in all, and unless Zellner finds something that actually exonerates this man, I will continue to believe he is the killer.

And finally, while I do believe he is the killer, I also think he did not get a fair trial.

Footnotes:

1. The prosecutor admitted he was a sex addict [see page 15 of OLR disciplinary hearing]

2. The prosecutor showed a persistent pattern of sexually harassing women [see page 10 of OLR disciplinary hearing]

3. The prosecutor put on an offensive media show while completely ignoring the feelings and privacy of the Halbach family.

4. Sexual addictions do not spring up over night, the prosecutor's protestations notwithstanding.​
Click to expand...
 
Limaes said:
I'm guessing usually one person to operate the tractor and another to operate the crusher although its possible for one person to do both.

Its interesting that they don't always crush just one car at a time. As this video shows, once the third car is crushed, you can not even see the 2nd one. Makes you wonder if that is what may have happened if Pam didn't find the car.

https://youtu.be/QuvPWGfAyo0

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

SA admits to crushing one of the cars during his interview on November 9th. In a lot of his statements he states that both he and Earl crush the cars, but in this particular interview he does not say he was accompanied by Earl.

Steven advised he had crushed the blue car that was in the crusher, but could not remember when he did it. Steven said it was not Friday, but said t was not there that long and it could have been the week before. Steven said he mostly takes cars out of the crusher after crushing them, but he was in a hurry.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...1/Steven-Avery-Interview-Report-2005Nov09.pdf
 
BigCityAccountant said:
SA admits to crushing one of the cars during his interview on November 9th. In a lot of his statements he states that both he and Earl crush the cars, but in this particular interview he does not say he was accompanied by Earl.

Steven advised he had crushed the blue car that was in the crusher, but could not remember when he did it. Steven said it was not Friday, but said t was not there that long and it could have been the week before. Steven said he mostly takes cars out of the crusher after crushing them, but he was in a hurry.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...1/Steven-Avery-Interview-Report-2005Nov09.pdf
Click to expand...
He was in a hurry? Or he intended to put the Rav 4 on top of it.

I was reading elsewhere about some procedures they go through before the car can be crushed. Any oil, brake fluid and petrol had to be drained out first and depending on the car, the motor sometimes had to be removed. It wasn't as simple a process as I initially thought.

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Limaes said:
He was in a hurry? Or he intended to put the Rav 4 on top of it.

I was reading elsewhere about some procedures they go through before the car can be crushed. Any oil, brake fluid and petrol had to be drained out first and depending on the car, the motor sometimes had to be removed. It wasn't as simple a process as I initially thought.

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Click to expand...

I imagine he was waiting for his family to leave to Crivitz in order to do so. I would also imagine that he would have upset some family members if they heard the crusher going and he would have to explain where the car came from and why he needed to crush it when it could have been sold off for parts.
 
Limaes said:
He was in a hurry? Or he intended to put the Rav 4 on top of it.

I was reading elsewhere about some procedures they go through before the car can be crushed. Any oil, brake fluid and petrol had to be drained out first and depending on the car, the motor sometimes had to be removed. It wasn't as simple a process as I initially thought.

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Excellent point. Here's an article regarding crushing cars. Not surprisingly, the gas tank and battery must be removed, and if it has an air conditioner, that system must be drained, before crushing the car. Obviously, if any of these are left, there is a high risk of triggering an exploding.
 
dexter75 said:
I know drugs can cause MANIA ( certain drugs, that is )

leading to; addiction,
be it gambling, shopping, alcohol, etc.
Click to expand...

Right. The drugs most highly correlated with Hypersexual Dysfunction are stimulants such as methamphetamine. However, if you read the Disciplinary Hearing, the drugs he was addicted to were Ambien, Vicodin, and Xanax... all depressants. Moreover, if you read the complaint, you'll see that those complaints included inappropriate sexual comments, sexual harassment, and in one case, an alleged rape, that went back as far as July of 2008 and included a crime victim, a two social workers, a woman he prosecuted twice, and a law school graduate, who he had also previously prosecuted. And these are just the ones we know about.
 
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