GUILTY Bali - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, found dead in suitcase, 12 Aug 2014 #5

Kamille said:

He has been treated very differently than HM by the court and prison system for his confession that was supposed to be to prevent them both from facing a firing squad. Truth is, that was likely never a possibility, but he and the rest of the “western” world were sure led to believe that it was. I think he knows now that if he had told the truth about what happened in that hotel room, he probably would have received the same sentence but so would HM. That’s got to sting.

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I suspect it's not true that Tommy's motivation to lie at trial was to escape the death penalty. I spent an afternoon looking at the available data and posted here, on an earlier thread over two years ago, an account of all the death sentences carried out in Indonesia this century. I noted how relatively few there were, and that only about half were for murder. (The balance being made up of drug traffickers and terrorists.)

If I could conclude in less than a day the pair of them would never get the death penalty, then I'm guessing even Tommy's public lawyer knew the same.

I certainly agree that it must sting that Heather only got ten years. But if after committing murder you haven't learned enough decency to tell the truth, then you won't earn my sympathy.

Tommy was taken in once by Heather and he committed murder. If he was taken in again and that's why he testified as he did, then he's an idiot. A murdering idiot. One now governed by religious vibrations and frequencies.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

It may very well be true that TS would put himself at risk if he talked about bribes.

You know, I hadn't thought of HM's fury. If TS told the truth about what happened the day SWM was murdered, from the time he entered the room until the time he and HM were caught on video leaving the room, HM would be furious. I wouldn't put it past her to try to get him attacked, assuming she could get her hands on the $ and find some poor Indonesians on the men's side to do the job.

OTOH, TS could put in for a transfer to another prison. If he's not going to see Stella any more, there's no reason for him to want to stay in Kerobokan.

Tommy can tell the truth without resort to any discussion of bribes!

I'm asking him to tell the truth about the murder. About the morning of 12 August 2014. There were no Indonesian bribes in play then.

And for true forgiveness, no excuses of any kind should be proffered. That includes stuff like, "I lied because I was promised a bribe-induced lower sentence."

He only needs to say he lied at trial. It's not like that's never been heard of, including in places where bribery is exceedingly difficult.

Bribes are a red herring in this discussion.

He certainly isn't likely to say anything that can further incriminate himself. He's already talked about the legal strategy, which, while distasteful (one partner 'taking the rap' for the other), it's not illegal. He's certainly not going to be hauled back to court and charged with perjury.

It's as if he thinks if he opens his mouth and describes what really happened, then somehow that will make it real and his family and friends - and he himself - will no longer be able to use euphemisms and vague chat to circle around and avoid facing the horror and monstrosity of what he did.

This wasn't someone who 'accidentally' pulled the trigger on a gun in the heat of the moment and instantly regretted what had never been meant to happen. This was discussed and planned over a period of months and carried out in a brutal, hands-on cold-blooded fashion. Neither he nor his family and friends really want to acknowledge that that is what happened.

ajaylee said:

[Cuts]

In texts TS sent to RB when he'd made up his mind to go to Bali and help murder SWM, TS tells RB that he'll have a million or two in his own name ('for real, for real') after about a year. He tells RB to get a passport and be ready to travel. No mention of TS's pregnant girlfriend or traveling with a new baby. RB seems to caution TS to take the long view, telling him that if he treats HM right, she'll be splashing out $$$ for TS for life.

That seemed to me to indicate that TS didn't see HM as the love of his life, he saw her as a financial opportunity. I think HM was a rebound relationship for TS and deep down, he knew it. He was rebounding from Rachel's death; HM came from a social class he aspired to, had money and was willing to sleep with him.

[Cuts]

I have always leaned towards believing that TS did not know HM was pregnant until he got to Bali. He no more wanted a kid with her (or anyone else) than the man in the moon. Maybe HM convinced him that her pregnancy meant they had to act immediately, no further delays. She might have told TS that if she didn't abort the child, SWM was going to disinherit her as soon as she got back to the US. The last thing TS needed or wanted was a pregnant cray-cray girlfriend with no inheritance.

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I've been meaning to get around to answering Kamille's interesting question: did Tommy know before the murder that Heather was pregnant?

But your answer is better than anything I can come up with, so I'll simply say, I agree.

Cray-cray indeed!

ajaylee said:

I do think HM was into TS. I think deep down she suspected he might not be as into her, but she knew he couldn't resist the pull of her money, and I suppose she was willing to win and keep him by any means possible, maybe figuring a baby would bring him fully around to loving her for herself.

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Heather has found so many uses for the poor little girl.

Kamille said:

It appears that RB couldn't quit Facebook either. :giggle:

https://www.facebook.com/ryan.labelhead?hc_ref=SEARCH

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When you remember what Bibbs wrote in some of those texts, it's shocking how many FB friends he has.

And none of them seem remotely bothered by what he has done. Wow.

I could have sworn that I read the occupations of Oshar Putu Melody Suartama and her husband in one of the stories about Stella leaving Kerobokan. Now I can't find any such thing. Does anyone have any cites to this?

Kakidoll said:

While I believe HM is 100% the driving force behind the murder, and TS is just as guilty for partaking, for him to 'tell the truth', whatever it may be, regarding any payoffs to govt, lawyers, jailers etc, is asking for a death sentence for him in that jail. I want to hear what he has to say... but if it were me, i'd definitely be waiting til i was out of that country first. There is NO ONE to protect him from those that took the bribes. And I do believe there was much more of that going on that we know about. HM is much more protected as she has the financial backing, even without the trust, since Stella is in the picture. He is expendable, IMO, and HM would just as much see him gone instead of talking. If she has a way, I think she'll be sending people after him. I wouldn't trust closing my eyes near her.

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I don't so much think that Tommy is in danger from Heather. She is a pyscho and I wonder if anyone in Kerobokan would have their sentence extended by doing her any favours, even for a few bucks.

But I very much agree that any mention of money changing hands with the guards, prosecution, judiciary, would be a very bad thing for Tommy's health and welfare in prison. That is something that is not usually discussed by westerners until they get out of prison and back to the safety of their own countries. Tommy is already hated by the westerners, apparently. To be hammered by the guards, too, would leave him in the worst of positions in Kerobokan ... where he has to remain for many years yet.

He should leave his self pity alone, and try do something altruistic - like sharing any talent he has with the other prisoners, and for their benefit. After all, he may be undergoing a long prison sentence, but he still has karma to deal with yet. And it will come for him.

Orange Tabby said:

SBM

For example, in the last few days there have been posts which essentially take one of two positions on Oshar Putu Melody Suartama:

1. She is acting in the best interests of Stella, and has no need to exploit her, and probably has indulged Heather because that was the only way to play a role in helping Stella, who is an innocent child who cannot help herself.

2. She knows who Heather is and what she's done and yet befriends her. That is suspicious. We should question her motives for taking physical custody of Stella and be concerned that she will continue to enable Heather.

I'm still thinking about this issue and I'm glad different perspectives are aired.

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I have to say, I was very unimpressed with Oshar's behaviour following her receiving Stella into her care. There is not one bit of Aussie in her performance.

We do not parade our children in front of the media. We just do not do it, even with our strict media guidelines regarding publication of all things 'children'. These guidelines were developed due to our cultural stance.

I was not impressed with her showering Stella with a million gifts (and making sure the media saw how generous they all were). Children Stella's age are happy with pots and pans and spoons to clang, dressing up in mum's shoes and clothes, playing in cubby houses made from sheets draped over furniture .....
The gifts were for Oshar's public opinion benefit, not for Stella's happiness and welfare. And guess what Oshar? It backfired, at least for me it did.

I had hoped that Stella would now enter a quiet peacefilled environment, with lots of healthy attention, structured behavioural limits, people playing with her one-on-one - and that we would hear nothing more about her for some time.

I am pretty disappointed.

I was disappointed at the bounty of toys. She'll be growing up surrounded by natural beauty, land and sea and sky - and they're offering her a pile of shiny colored junk? Why not at least give her clothing and books?

I agree, this display was for the media and the public and not for Stella.

Oshar has known HM almost from the beginning - before she hired Soenardi. Doesn't Oshar also have a family member who is an attorney? Acting as an interpreter at the jail, she would have naturally heard and met the local criminal attorneys and gotten to know which ones were good and which ones weren't.

I wonder if it was Oshar who pointed HM to Soenardi. I wonder if there's any possibility that a generous part of Soenardi's fee was actually diverted to Oshar as payment for taking Stella if HM was convicted for more than two years.

Orange Tabby said:

I could have sworn that I read the occupations of Oshar Putu Melody Suartama and her husband in one of the stories about Stella leaving Kerobokan. Now I can't find any such thing. Does anyone have any cites to this?

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One article I read said her husband was a tattoo artist, but I can't remember where I saw it.

IslandLover said:

One article I read said her husband was a tattoo artist, but I can't remember where I saw it.

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Yes, that's the one. I wondered if it was true? Or, if it was the Mail, perhaps it's their derogatory way of referring to a guy who started out that way and now owns a whole chain of parlors.

It also said Oshar was a manager for holiday villas.

SouthAussie said:

I have to say, I was very unimpressed with Oshar's behaviour following her receiving Stella into her care. There is not one bit of Aussie in her performance.

We do not parade our children in front of the media. We just do not do it, even with our strict media guidelines regarding publication of all things 'children'. These guidelines were developed due to our cultural stance.

I was not impressed with her showering Stella with a million gifts (and making sure the media saw how generous they all were). Children Stella's age are happy with pots and pans and spoons to clang, dressing up in mum's shoes and clothes, playing in cubby houses made from sheets draped over furniture .....
The gifts were for Oshar's public opinion benefit, not for Stella's happiness and welfare. And guess what Oshar? It backfired, at least for me it did.

I had hoped that Stella would now enter a quiet peacefilled environment, with lots of healthy attention, structured behavioural limits, people playing with her one-on-one - and that we would hear nothing more about her for some time.

I am pretty disappointed.

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I think it was Oshar who arranged the interview and photoshoot with People. In one of the photos she's sitting there looking pretty smug.

I was not impressed by the display of toys either. Very materialistic.

http://people.com/crime/heather-mack-daughter-turned-over-guardian-bali-prison-suitcase-murder/

Orange Tabby said:

Yes, that's the one. I wondered if it was true? Or, if it was the Mail, perhaps it's their derogatory way of referring to a guy who started out that way and now owns a whole chain of parlors.

It also said Oshar was a manager for holiday villas.

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It was the Daily Mail article. In fact they were the only paper not to name Oshar, instead stating that they knew her identity.

The woman who will care for Stella has two sons aged nine and seven and works as a manager of holiday villas. Her Indonesian husband is a tattoo artist.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-killer-Heather-Mack-Bali-jail-daughter.html

ajaylee said:

These are questions I've wondered about for a long time.

In texts TS sent to RB when he'd made up his mind to go to Bali and help murder SWM, TS tells RB that he'll have a million or two in his own name ('for real, for real') after about a year. He tells RB to get a passport and be ready to travel. No mention of TS's pregnant girlfriend or traveling with a new baby. RB seems to caution TS to take the long view, telling him that if he treats HM right, she'll be splashing out $$$ for TS for life.

That seemed to me to indicate that TS didn't see HM as the love of his life, he saw her as a financial opportunity. I think HM was a rebound relationship for TS and deep down, he knew it. He was rebounding from Rachel's death; HM came from a social class he aspired to, had money and was willing to sleep with him.

I realize we don't know how many texts we actually saw from TS's and RB's phones, but it does seem unlikely that there were many texts discussing the pregnancy and the authorities chose not to release a single one. It seems particularly odd, since the Indonesians bought into the nonsense about the news of the pregnancy sending SWM into a homicidal rage.

So...SWM and HM know HM is pregnant again before leaving for Bali. Not a single text mentioning the coming baby has ever been released (if they exist). Immediately before leaving for Bali, TS is texting RB to get his passport and be prepared to travel, and suggesting that within a year or two at most, he, TS, will have at least a million or two under his own name. Again, no mention of the coming baby.

I have always leaned towards believing that TS did not know HM was pregnant until he got to Bali. He no more wanted a kid with her (or anyone else) than the man in the moon. Maybe HM convinced him that her pregnancy meant they had to act immediately, no further delays. She might have told TS that if she didn't abort the child, SWM was going to disinherit her as soon as she got back to the US. The last thing TS needed or wanted was a pregnant cray-cray girlfriend with no inheritance.

Plus, he wasn't in a good position to back out. He had no money himself for a return ticket, and SWM had said she was going to prosecute him for credit card fraud as soon as they returned.

I do think HM was into TS. I think deep down she suspected he might not be as into her, but she knew he couldn't resist the pull of her money, and I suppose she was willing to win and keep him by any means possible, maybe figuring a baby would bring him fully around to loving her for herself.

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Great thinking ajaylee, I never considered that HM may have told TS about her pregnancy when he got to Bali to heighten the urgency of why her mother needed to be killed, and pronto, for the reasons you have stated. I was thinking that she never told him about it at all and that he might have heard about it after his arrest when HM announced it to her jailers.

And perhaps the "Tommy tattoo" that Heather apparently received at some point in Kerobokan is proof that she really was into him for a while. But something happened between them in the spring of last year. And one thing we know about a psychopath, you only get away from them when they are done with you. So I think it must have been HM who decided she wanted to ditch TS. I remember that the tabloids were hinting at her attention being turned to another man that she met in the art studio. And then there was the lesbian relationship that she was flaunting on her IG.

No doubt she was providing TS with supplies from the overabundance of things she was receiving so when the relationship went sour, TS was cut off of everything. He had to have known that would happen so I find it hard to believe he wasn't willing to continue the "farce" as long as necessary for his survival in there. It appears he continued it for at least a year after they were convicted.

MOO

What if the truth is that TS entered the hotel room with the weapon that HM asked him to bring and just couldn't do it. So HM grabbed it from him and took care of it herself, knowing that he had to help her with the clean up because he was there and equally involved at that point and she could just lie and say he did it.

HM did make that video saying that she was fully responsible for the death and that TS only helped her clean it up.

How would that affect him now after first saying that he did not do it and then changing his story to say that he did? I agree with the opinion that TS, who does not have a lawyer or anyone advocating for him over there, would be unwise to say anything more with regards to what really happened that day, that contradicts what he "respectfully" told the court, while he is still in the country. And what could he say about the reasons why he lied and said that he did it (if he didn't) if he cannot mention the "deal" that he may have been told was being struck between the attorneys and the court officials?

As far as him not believing that he could really face the firing squad, he was being told that he would if he was convicted of premeditated murder. By the attorneys that HM had arranged for the both of them. All the papers were screaming it in the headlines and Judge Cohen himself believed it was a real possibility. TS seems to imply in his rant that he was being told that they both would be executed for premeditated murder if he didn't take the rap and say he did it in self defense. He knew that they had the text messages because he knew they had access to his phone. So he knew they easily had evidence that it was premeditated. He also must have known that the money AS was asking for was to ensure that the self defense scenario would be bought in court and they would both receive light sentences. In that case neither of them would have received more than 8 years. Maybe more like the 4 and 6 years that SC and DT just got for their self defense claim with the murdered police officer.

But unfortunately for TS, while Judge Cohen may have been blind to the huge amount that AS was demanding, and why, he refused to release any funds for TS's part in this "deal". And HM probably struck a deal of her own. So apparently he was actually convicted of premeditated murder. All news sources also seem to say she was convicted of her part in a premeditated murder. But the "official" charge for HM, according to AS, was "accessory to murder". Which he also says is the equivalent of the American "accessory after the fact".

I don't know. Maybe he thought uploading that video to youtube would get his "truth" out. Without him paying the consequences. Looks like that backfired on him big time.

MOO

IslandLover said:

I'm mindful of the recently released video where HM "absolves" TS of the murder and now wonder if TS's soul-bearing facebook post and this video are somehow connected? Both put HM in a bad light. Now we have the article in the Daily Mail which seems to promote TS. What's going on?

Additionally, there are some things stated by TS in his facebook post which are almost repeated by HM in her video. I find this too much of a coincidence.

Thoughts, anyone?

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That letter from TS was around Oct 2016? Correct me if I'm wrong.
I think it was on something else besides FB - wasn't that public.
Source help needed to be confirmed.

Kakidoll said:

While I believe HM is 100% the driving force behind the murder, and TS is just as guilty for partaking, for him to 'tell the truth', whatever it may be, regarding any payoffs to govt, lawyers, jailers etc, is asking for a death sentence for him in that jail. I want to hear what he has to say... but if it were me, i'd definitely be waiting til i was out of that country first. There is NO ONE to protect him from those that took the bribes. And I do believe there was much more of that going on that we know about. HM is much more protected as she has the financial backing, even without the trust, since Stella is in the picture. He is expendable, IMO, and HM would just as much see him gone instead of talking. If she has a way, I think she'll be sending people after him. I wouldn't trust closing my eyes near her.

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Yep, I can see this too.

There's a few scenarios I would consider with HM before they were caught...

It was many posts back at the beginning when I questioned if the FBI or any official investigators had checked any private clinics in the area to see if HM had actually booked in for a termination.
I could never imagine this girl wanting a child.

If she hadnt told TS, TS would be none the wiser.

If she had told TS, HM would have blamed her mother regarding the termination - she would have said she was forced by her mother to do it. She would have told TS that.
She had ready blamed her mother before for 2 others.

It would not surprise me if HM had said to TS not to mention anything to anyone about the pregnancy.
HM grooms people to her will.
Not all that uncommon with her ilk.
She is a psychopath and a very convincing one. He helped kill her mother - he could keep that secret about the baby if she asked him too.

Before Sheilas death, at the time, and in that HM psychopathic mind, HM may have thought that she could do a few things successfully -
like kill her mother, terminate the pregnancy, leave the island with TS, spend the dollars - no baby, no mother, no boyfriend (she would have ditched TS - or who ever she persuaded)
and then no worries.
Live in Chicago and live off her inheritance.

Sheila was a smart lady - she had friends she could confide in - she knew what HM was up to.
She locked up those passports good and proper and everything fell apart for HM & TS - thank goodness.

Been reading Bibbs FB. He went to jail today for repeatedly failing his drug tests. He says he will be sentenced in another 2 months. He doesn't know how long he will be gone.


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