The Key: Planted or Not? Impact?

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missy1974 said:
From memory... the RAV4 was found the morning of Nov 5th at Avery's, was taken to the crime lab late that night (took longer than it should have). Nov 6th the RAV4 was first processed at the lab, BUT... the door was unlocked already and there is no record of who unlocked it or how.

In light of the lanyard being found in the center console and the key that should have been attached to it being found in SA's bedroom, it raises questions IMO.
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We also don't have any pictures to prove that it was ever in the center console at all. Shrugs. I still feel its original place of key connected to lanyard before AC found the car was in the blue bag in her back seat.
 
missy1974 said:
8:12 am - SA calls AutoTrader. He must not have called the toll free number because it's not on their toll free records.

9:46am - Dawn at AT calls TH. (on her new cell records)

11:04 am - SA calls AT's toll free number from his house phone. (presumably to see if TH could make it that day.) IIRC SA stated this early on in his interviews too that he called or they called him to tell him that she would be there around 2pm, he couldn't remember which phone he used and told them to check his phone records.

11:10am - AT calls TH again. (only 5 seconds long)

11:44 am - TH calls Janda's.

As for the message on Janda's machine.... I saw a post on the family FB page within the last few months and Barb is pretty sure that the answering machine is hers in the video of the recorded voice message from TH.

Oh and also wanted to mention in case you didn't know wasnt_me... the reason the phone number associated with the Janda residence was different is because between September (when Tom had TH do pics of a car for him) and the end of October, he was no longer there. But it doesn't change the fact that Avery was still connected to the Janda's account. Like you said in another post... this should not have been hard to make the connection, and according to Dawn's first phone interview, it wasn't... she even said that the Janda's are basically the Avery's, she knew... somehow forgot by the time it went to trial, not sure why the defense didn't destroy her "I didn't know" poo.
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Would like to say. How did AutoT know TH would be there at 11:04 when SA called back. From what I see most Auto T calls were VM up till then. And first time TH checked her VM that morning was at 11:04am.
 
MysticJynx said:
Would like to say. How did AutoT know TH would be there at 11:04 when SA called back. From what I see most Auto T calls were VM up till then. And first time TH checked her VM that morning was at 11:04am.
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Looking at the new records again...

There looks like more than 1 call from AT that morning.

8:17am - last 4 digits of # 8736 - 1:06 in length
9:46am - 8738 - :33 seconds
10:52am - 8738 - :05 seconds
11:10am - 8736 - :05 seconds

I also don't think we have seen her home phone records. No clue how AT knew at 11:04, but I have to think they spoke to her (maybe the 9:46 call?).
 
missy1974 said:
Looking at the new records again...

There looks like more than 1 call from AT that morning.

8:17am - last 4 digits of # 8736 - 1:06 in length
9:46am - 8738 - :33 seconds
10:52am - 8738 - :05 seconds
11:10am - 8736 - :05 seconds

I also don't think we have seen her home phone records. No clue how AT knew at 11:04, but I have to think they spoke to her (maybe the 9:46 call?).
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I would have to disagree that any of these calls were answered as all of them show they ended with her VM number.

attachment.php


Then again I could be reading her records wrong. Darn things get rather confusing.
 
Yeah, I don't understand the records, but even if they left voice mails, they are exchanging information, right?
 
wasnt_me said:
Yeah, I don't understand the records, but even if they left voice mails, they are exchanging information, right?
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yep, you are right in your other post, it was answered by VM! I have thought that maybe she "answered" the VM through her VM... what I mean is, at the end of a VM, it gives an option to reply to the sender if the sender also has VM. BUT... Angela says she spoke to her when Dawn was on lunch... so it doesn't matter haha Either way... even with more info from the exhibits attached to the brief, I am still left with questions!
 
wasnt_me said:
Yeah, I don't understand the records, but even if they left voice mails, they are exchanging information, right?
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Well the first time she listened to her vm that day was at the same time Avery called Auto T. the second time at 11:04. So how could Auto T tell him shes coming. How is it that Angela S her boss is saying she talked to TH when all the calls seem to go to her voice mail. But Missy is also very right. We have not see her Home phone records and she certainly could have called into Auto T from there.
 
She either called her voicemail from her landline or we're misreading the call log.
 
wasnt_me said:
She either called her voicemail from her landline or we're misreading the call log.
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Her phone records on cell should show the call coming in from her landline to her cell to check her VM. So for me there is still a lot of info that was never seen. May not have even been collected by Corrupted investigators.
 
I didn't even know we knew her landline number. What is it?
 
LOL. The place I probably looked at the LEAST! Who studies page one? :blushing: Thanks!
 
Anyone who believes the key wasn't planted should watch the video of Andrew Colborn's testimony regarding the call he made regarding TH's license plate number. He found the vehicle well before other claimed to have found it. It's not a stretch to think that TH had the key to her SUV in her Toyota at that time, probably both keys attached to the same fob. Colborn could have snatched the SUV key at that point, then he or someone else planted it in Avery's house at a later time.

[video=youtube;S0xY5onKE8A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0xY5onKE8A&t=162s[/video]
 
I read through this entire thread last night but didn't have time to comment.

I think the keys were planted, is there any evidence to the contrary? TH's DNA wasn't even on them, were they even hers?

I'm not sold on any theory at this time, but it seems most likely that LE planted the keys then "discovered" them.

There seem to be no shortage of options for where this spare key came from

a. it was made and planted

b. it was taken from TH's home and planted

c. it was taken from TH's car and planted

d. it was given the LE by someone interested in helping from SA - personally don't think this is what happened, I don't think LE would risk involving others

What struck me as odd about the lanyard was that the part found with the key in SA's house was solid blue with nothing on it. I realize some are like that but rarely have I seen that. Most of the time the print from the lanyard extends to the portion attached to the keys. Which made me wonder if LE found the NG lanyard in the RAV4 and couldn't find another lanyard to match so just bought one the same color and attached that to the spare key they had made?? Did they ever determine that it indeed did belong to the other portion of the lanyard? Not having TH's DNA on the key portion certainly points to that not being TH's, but was the part found in the car actually TH's?

Also, it was discussed upthread how if the keys were planted the entire case needs re-examined. This I completely agree with, IF SA did kill TH, then by all means he should be in prison, but by actual police work and evidence not by planting evidence. I think if the key was planted it calls into question all other evidence.
 
I doubt the key was planted. One question the defense raises is why there is only DNA of SA on it, and none of TH's. Well, aside from obvious answers like him having a cut on his finger and maybe some blood getting on the key, which he later washed off, but then touched the key again to hide it in his bookcase (I bet he never knew anything about touch DNA until his trial), there were two DNA scientists at trial who both said it's not uncommon you will find only the DNA of the last handler, and not of previous handlers. As if the last handler's DNA can somehow mask or replace the previous handler's DNA.

This effectively means Steven Avery is the last person to touch the key.
 
I want to add that I believe the cops didn't have much to gain by planting the key. The key didn't have much impact on the State's case. Only if it was proven it was planted it could have made an impact. But that wasn't proven so it didn't have much impact.


They already had the RAV4 with her and his blood inside it and his touch DNA on the hood latch. That would've been enough physical evidence to convict Avery imo.
 
ACJL said:
I want to add that I believe the cops didn't have much to gain by planting the key. The key didn't have much impact on the State's case. Only if it was proven it was planted it could have made an impact. But that wasn't proven so it didn't have much impact.


They already had the RAV4 with her and his blood inside it and his touch DNA on the hood latch. That would've been enough physical evidence to convict Avery imo.
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I do think that Strang and Buting did well with the resources, time, and money they had; however, I think they dropped the ball on the key planting. Why in the world wouldn't they point out those coins, paper, etc on the top of that cabinet didn't move after AC fought with it in his frustration? Whether I think that key could have fallen out of the back of that cabinet is totally irrelevant once I realized that nothing on the top even moved. And once I had the opinion that the key was planted, it brings all evidence into question.

Don't forget that the key was found on the 8th. IIRC, they didn't know who the blood belonged to yet on the 8th, Avery wasn't arrested until the 10th, and then it was for the firearms, not the murder. So the argument that they already had physical evidence isn't really true, not in real time anyway. jmo

ETA: and the hood latch evidence didn't come until MONTHS later.
 
missy1974 said:
I do think that Strang and Buting did well with the resources, time, and money they had; however, I think they dropped the ball on the key planting. Why in the world wouldn't they point out those coins, paper, etc on the top of that cabinet didn't move after AC fought with it in his frustration? Whether I think that key could have fallen out of the back of that cabinet is totally irrelevant once I realized that nothing on the top even moved. And once I had the opinion that the key was planted, it brings all evidence into question.

Don't forget that the key was found on the 8th. IIRC, they didn't know who the blood belonged to yet on the 8th, Avery wasn't arrested until the 10th, and then it was for the firearms, not the murder. So the argument that they already had physical evidence isn't really true, not in real time anyway. jmo

ETA: and the hood latch evidence didn't come until MONTHS later.
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I agree they did well, but I believe Buting made some comments about reddit and other web sources and how big groups of people who come together there have managed to find stuff that they overlooked all this time, such as the car key being a valet key. So they just didn't know, I guess. I probably wouldn't have figured that out either myself. I learned it through reddit (I think) as well.

Or... they did know... I think you're referring to exhibits 208 and 210?

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/exhibit-208.jpg
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/exhibit-210.jpg

Though it should be noted that the paper did not move, we can't see all the coins, but the (very few) coins we can see on both photos did not seem to have moved (and many seem to just assume that NONE of the coins ever moved). The remote control did move. The record cabinet itself did not move either. Now, is that a sign that Colborn lied at trial when he said he moved the cabinet from the wall? Did he not move it at all? Or does this actually suggest these photos were not taken before and after the moving of the cabinet? I mean... if some items did not move... if the cabinet did not move. What is the most logical conclusion here with regards to when these photos were made?

missy1974 said:
Don't forget that the key was found on the 8th. IIRC, they didn't know who the blood belonged to yet on the 8th, Avery wasn't arrested until the 10th, and then it was for the firearms, not the murder. So the argument that they already had physical evidence isn't really true, not in real time anyway. jmo
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Come on....

Her car is not physical evidence!?

The blood was inside the car and the car was confiscated on the fifth. If this doesn't count then you are saying the Crime Lab planted the blood of TH and SA in the car, and his touch DNA as well.

They also had her burned electronics and the license plate from her car, found separate from the car. Plenty of stuff.
 
missy1974 said:
I do think that Strang and Buting did well with the resources, time, and money they had; however, I think they dropped the ball on the key planting. Why in the world wouldn't they point out those coins, paper, etc on the top of that cabinet didn't move after AC fought with it in his frustration? Whether I think that key could have fallen out of the back of that cabinet is totally irrelevant once I realized that nothing on the top even moved. And once I had the opinion that the key was planted, it brings all evidence into question.

Don't forget that the key was found on the 8th. IIRC, they didn't know who the blood belonged to yet on the 8th, Avery wasn't arrested until the 10th, and then it was for the firearms, not the murder. So the argument that they already had physical evidence isn't really true, not in real time anyway. jmo

ETA: and the hood latch evidence didn't come until MONTHS later.
Click to expand...

Here is a prediction: Lenk and Colbourn are going to be the fall guys. There is absolutely no way to explain away the planted key. It was clearly planted by them. AC and JL will admit to planting the key because they were "exasperated" and really thought Avery was responsible. They will get their bums spanked but keep their pensions.
 
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