Agreed
Federal Indictment: James Burke, Former Suffolk Co PD Chief, December 2015 - #3
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Agreed
SageRhiannon
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There is no doubt in my mind Shulman is guilty. The evidence was overwhelming, plus you have 2 confessions in that case. Him & his brother. To believe in a vast conspiracy involving LE with that case, you would have to have 3 different LE county jursidictions involved (Nassau, Suffolk & Westchester) which Is unlikely. More than one SK have worked at overlapping times in the past (even with similar MOs) including Long Island, so it is not an unusual occurence.
I'm sorry to be rude and I'm not trying to be argumentative. I have not gone over the evidence in this case but I may.
First, I'm sure you are aware, a lot of innocent people do get convicted of crimes
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic...re-wrongly-convicted-researchers-do-the-math/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...0fc3a2-1aae-11e5-93b7-5eddc056ad8a_story.html
about 4.1% of convictions are of innocent people, but there is another factor.
That number is actually lower for mild crimes. So if you are convicted of shoplifting there is a less than 4.1% chance you are innocent. But for crimes that involve strong emotions, like murder, the percentage of wrongful convictions is higher, probably because there is a lower standard for evidence. I can find a link for that last point if you like.
Anyway, as I say, I have not reviewed this case. I remember reading that he confessed under duress, they said they would attack his brother unless he confessed. So that should add some question. Also a brief search on google
If you know how things work there, the Suffolk police get confessions from almost 100% of their suspects. In other cities the rate of confessions averages less than 40%.
So there is doubt about how valid his confession was.
Forensics I don't know, I'll search google tomorrow if I remember. I know that several Suffolk forensics experts have been caught giving what amounted to false testimony in other cases, but as is usually the case with police, they do not lose their job, nor even face discipline. I guess they just blush and say "oops I got caught". Was that the case with Shulman? It remains to be seen.
SageRhiannon
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I agree 100% that innocent people get convicted of murder all the time and that Suffolk County has a high rate of murder confessions, but after you get a chance to read the investigation & evidence against Shulman, I am sure you will reach the conclusion that he is 100% guilty. In addition to initially confessing to the 3 murders, he went on to confess to 2 other murders. He also plead guilty at trials in Suffolk & Westchester counties. He said he felt horrible & apologized to victims' families upon his initial arrest. The only appeal is in his case was for a reduction of his death penalty sentencing. His brother also plead guilty in helping dispose of bodies and was sentenced to prison time. Yes SCPD is riddled with corruption. IMO it is probably one of the most corrupt in the country. But do I believe every LE officer there is corrupt, certainly not. And I do believe they got it right with Shulman. JMO
I've spent a few minutes googling and so far everything I can find is problematic for the prosecution.
1) He supposedly had quite a bit of cash in his bank account. Detectives said they did not know where the money came from.
I remember in the '80s running into an old friend who had spent a while smoking crack. He had a great job, making a lot of money, but he spent every last cent, down to the penny, on crack. Years later in the 2000s I remember another guy who had a family and a fair amount of money until he got into crack. When I met him he had nothing but debts. He told me in some length how fast the money went and what a drop.
So... Shulman had a sum of money in his bank account that would have been consistent with him having saved a fair amount of his earnings from a 30k a year postal job. He didn't have a lot more or a lot less, he had about what you would expect for somebody who was a thrifty saver. And yet, he was smoking crack with prostitutes at least from '91 until he was 'caught'? I doubt it.
2) Sorry to use statistics, but there are problems with the bodies attributed to him. Two unidentifieds that closed sticky cases? A person should be skeptical.
3) Several of the bodies, and possibly all of them, are most certainly associated with other bodies the police were aware of but which he was not charged with. Highly problematic.
4) Victim found Dec 1994 had her leg severed midway between the knee and groin. This has implications that would only have been ignored by the prosecution for a reason.
5) Sorry for statistics again, but finding 1 body in a dumpster that somebody rummaged through to find a lottery ticked suggests that there were several bodies placed in dumpsters that were not rummaged through.
etc
The confession far crosses into the absurd. It is a bunch of big kids trying to get a little kid to admit something absurd, but they don't even have a sense of the ridiculousness.
That's theater, not confession and
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The entire case seems to rest on the following
My guess would be that the forensics were managed by the same person who handled Bittrolff's forensics, that Shuler's lawyer who was also Bittrolff's lawyer, gave the forensics crew adequate cover in court, and that all of the crime scene photographs from Shuler's case were 'lost'.
edit to add
One last point and then I will drop this.
On reviewing the legal type papers online, it is clear that his defense was not based on facts but on technicalities. In other words the defense tried to portray him as a guilty person trying to 'use the law' to escape punishment.
Two other cases, Bittrolff and Esar Met or 'Samar' who was convicted of killing Hser Ner Moo in Salt Lake city, have the same feature.
The question a person should ask first is whether or not the person is actually factually guilty. Not whether their rights were violated in this or that way, which only serves as a distraction to cloud the issues.
Was Shuler crazy? Who cares, that was his business. Was he improperly treated with regard to the law, perhaps pressured into confessing? He may have been, but again not relevent to his guilt.
Was he actually guilty? The evidence is very strong that he did not commit all of the murders attributed to him, and further research may indicate that he commited none of them.
I'm burned out on this stuff for now but will follow the issue and hope that somebody does honest research on it.
SageRhiannon
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We will have to agree to disagree on this issue. Lol
If anybody is interested in statistics, here is another bit. Then I drop it.
Somebody was preparing the crime scene to account for bodies that had not been found yet. Where is the dna from those bodies they were waiting for?
Some links for anybody to research.
http://pix11.com/2016/05/12/as-suff...clusive-details-of-alleged-acts-are-revealed/
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/...nt-fall-of-long-islands-dirtiest-police-chief
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/...burke-s-past-would-lead-to-scandal-1.11752916
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/03/...the-defensive-as-federal-inquiry-expands.html
https://disqus.com/home/discussion/newsday/questions_swirl_around_bellones_support_of_burke/
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/...mas-spota-will-leave-under-a-cloud-1.13627301
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Another one to research for anybody bored
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/...d-the-suffolk-county-sniper-suspect-1.1873475
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/29/nyregion/man-charged-as-the-sniper-in-li-attacks.html
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2002-10-08/news/0210080183_1_suffolk-sniper-luck
http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/sniper-aimed-wow-stripper-article-1.710052
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/09/28/n...ced-for-94-shootings-in-which-a-man-died.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/25/nyregion/sniper-injures-2-motorists-in-nassau.html
Wait. There have been about two snipers in the past 100 years on Long Island, and both of them were sniping in June and July 1994? And police caught "one of them" who confessed after being "interviewed" and he is excluded from being 'the other' sniper because what? Alibi? Very unlikely.
There are a mountain of people convicted in that court in that time period, all with ironclad confessions and dna evidence. The FBI does not go after police corruption generally because it undermines confidence in the police, unless there is substantial publicity. So there is plenty of evidence of something extensively not right, but there is no chance that any of those dozens of convictions will be reviewed, and the feds are sure to sugarcoat the broader corruption issue when they finally get around to indicting a few retired and dead people.
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/...ert-macedonio-new-details-of-probe-1.11789974
Add
Sorry, yes, agree to disagree is fine
maddalena1
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I believe that melissa felt like she was being followed bit im not sure about the others. I dont know all the particulars but does not surprise me that lisk is a watcher stalker. Stalkers are dangerous and often suffer from ocd. Lisk sure shows signs of phone ocd.
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There is a difference between stalking and 'selecting', which might be relevent. There are a few indications that the women might have been 'selected' by somebody who had access to a database. In other words they were not randomly seen or randomly picked up then targeted.
You probably should look at police records with skepticism, in other words they are valuable information as long as you know what their value is, and it may not be face value.
You probably should look at police records with skepticism, in other words they are valuable information as long as you know what their value is, and it may not be face value.
This old case seems like what the lisk killer might have started as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Terrance_Williams_and_Felipe_Santos
The killer picks people who he thinks will not spark a search. He has good reason to think if there is a search, or problems do develop, he is covered, protected.
The killer picks people who he thinks will not spark a search. He has good reason to think if there is a search, or problems do develop, he is covered, protected.
OMG I hadn't heard of this case. What a complete travesty of justice.
The deputy picked a Mexican national accidentally, who may have been registered with their Consulate or something, and so the Consulate got involved and then they kept pushing the issue and finally somebody made a tv show about the case, so it was well known.
Unfortunate for the deputy, since he imagined he was killing a wetback or whatever and nobody would notice. He did lose his job I believe.
add
Which means now he's probably a deputy a few towns over.
Another famous case that has parallels probably to the lisk case is the so called cannibal cop case.
Most people have one narrative of that story, something like "a twisted infividual became a cop, the 'good cops' tried to arrest him but he escaped justice."
That's not what happened at all though, and it may be helpful to some people realizing what the problem is, so I'll rattle on another lengthy post.
Anywhere where you have a so called 'macho' mentality in a work place there are a few different groups.
a) The most common are the workaday people who try to do their job and play games minimally. These people almost always yield to the pressures put on them.
b) The so called 'macho' types who live only as part of the gang. Their identity is entirely a group thing built around their image.
c) People who aspire to 'fit in' with the power group. These people will do anything to become accepted, and police, like gangs, test these individuals, make sure they are loyal to the gang above all else, and mentor them.
d) People who do not respect the gang mentality and try to enforce a more individual mentality, usually by poking fun at the gangsters.
The 'cannibal cop' was in this last group. Anybody who has worked in that environment recognizes his comments as a brand of humor or mocking the local culture, in this case police culture. People who have not worked in that kind of environment don't see what is going on.
The "cannibal cop" was mocking the "tough guy" gangster cops. He was commiting the most serious offense, disrespecting their primary value, which is, circularly, respecting them. So in that culture he did something worse than any typical crime, including murder etc, which could be forgiven. The only unforgiveable crime, what puts a person past any chance of redemption, is not respecting the gang's social values etc.
A lot of people looked at that case and knew exactly what was going on, and also knew that the gangsters trying to set him up were extremely dangerous to challenge so they would be successful in steamrolling judges or whoever was required to validate their bizarre justice. But a lot of other people, most people, were clueless.
How is this relevent to lisk? Most likely the main killer is a cop that is at the top of the plastic punk hierarchy in his police group. He might have lost his job due to alcohol or drug use in such a way that his job was unsaveable by his friends, and those pals then had even more obligation to protect him, even follow him.
That would be my bet.
One last point I'll make since I have hijacked this thread, anybody over the age of 30 who participated in any way whatsoever in the cannibal cop farce should be unemployed or in jail. People who ignore the evidence in the lisk case, or who play along with farces like the Bittrolff prosecution should be their jailors. Two birds /
Most people have one narrative of that story, something like "a twisted infividual became a cop, the 'good cops' tried to arrest him but he escaped justice."
That's not what happened at all though, and it may be helpful to some people realizing what the problem is, so I'll rattle on another lengthy post.
Anywhere where you have a so called 'macho' mentality in a work place there are a few different groups.
a) The most common are the workaday people who try to do their job and play games minimally. These people almost always yield to the pressures put on them.
b) The so called 'macho' types who live only as part of the gang. Their identity is entirely a group thing built around their image.
c) People who aspire to 'fit in' with the power group. These people will do anything to become accepted, and police, like gangs, test these individuals, make sure they are loyal to the gang above all else, and mentor them.
d) People who do not respect the gang mentality and try to enforce a more individual mentality, usually by poking fun at the gangsters.
The 'cannibal cop' was in this last group. Anybody who has worked in that environment recognizes his comments as a brand of humor or mocking the local culture, in this case police culture. People who have not worked in that kind of environment don't see what is going on.
The "cannibal cop" was mocking the "tough guy" gangster cops. He was commiting the most serious offense, disrespecting their primary value, which is, circularly, respecting them. So in that culture he did something worse than any typical crime, including murder etc, which could be forgiven. The only unforgiveable crime, what puts a person past any chance of redemption, is not respecting the gang's social values etc.
A lot of people looked at that case and knew exactly what was going on, and also knew that the gangsters trying to set him up were extremely dangerous to challenge so they would be successful in steamrolling judges or whoever was required to validate their bizarre justice. But a lot of other people, most people, were clueless.
How is this relevent to lisk? Most likely the main killer is a cop that is at the top of the plastic punk hierarchy in his police group. He might have lost his job due to alcohol or drug use in such a way that his job was unsaveable by his friends, and those pals then had even more obligation to protect him, even follow him.
That would be my bet.
One last point I'll make since I have hijacked this thread, anybody over the age of 30 who participated in any way whatsoever in the cannibal cop farce should be unemployed or in jail. People who ignore the evidence in the lisk case, or who play along with farces like the Bittrolff prosecution should be their jailors. Two birds /
I'm convinced that James Burke is the LISK, or at least one of several people who were involved. He was busted for having a known prostitute in his police car while on duty in '93 (or '96, I don't remember off the top of my head). Two years later, a dismembered prostitute was found in the area. I believe the "thrill" of killing was his main motive, but also to cover up his corrupt activities (escorts and drug activity). Perhaps the victims were the women he felt might bring heat on him; and the fact that he was close to Spota made it easier for him to do such things because he thought he was untouchable. And then there's the comment he made to Chris Loeb, threatening to give him a fatal heroin overdose and make it look like an accident. How did Shannon Gilbert die? Did she make that 911 call immediately upon realizing that she was deliberately overdosed by someone?
Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
PickleChris
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Not sure if this has been posted but this is currently at Gilgo.
Angela_Beckett
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Scorpio girl
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The man responsible for Shannan's death was Michael Pak.
She was running away from Pak.
I disagree. Pak left when Gus said the cops were on there way.
Its almost 7 yrs since remains have been found on the pkwy. Does anyone believe an arrest will be made in this case? I dont. To much time has gone by. Theres no way to know whats on the minds of LE. It doesnt really matter. Nothing will come of it.