NORTH KOREA - Otto Warmbier, 22, UV student, released from North Korea, June 2017, Deceased

Unfortunately, there are many ways to torture a person that cannot be proven by an autopsy.


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Right. The coroner's report showed no changes to his teeth or any signs of significant bone breaks/fractures or scars that would show torture.

I also note that what they described - deaf, blind and howling - can apply to anyone in a vegetative state. I looked it up. Moaning and such happens in vegetative states and it is unlikely he was able to process any information.

Can PVS Patients Talk?

It’s important to note that those in persistent vegetative states are unable to speak and, for the most part, unable to respond to vocal commands (Again, those with the strongest degrees of consciousness may be able to respond to minimal stimuli). Instead, they are limited to certain noises, most of which are involuntarily made.Noises commonly made by patients in persistent vegetative states include:

  • crying
  • grunting
  • laughing
  • moaning
  • screaming
http://www.brainandspinalcord.org/persistent-vegetative-state-pvs/

I think it is possible he was poisoned, deprived of oxygen, like partially drowned or suffocated, or was given contaminated food which caused botulism. Botulism can cause respiratory failure and some of the medicines used to treat it, well, with their extremely primitive medical system, I can see Otto experiencing brain injury from various things that could happen in that hellhole.

But regardless if this was a case of accidental food poisoning and horrific medical care, it WAS torture. It's clear that he wasn't given the care most political prisoners over there get. They took it up a notch.

And for this to be the result of an alleged theft of a poster? That's torture in my book.

I feel so sorry for his family. A healthy, promising young man comes back destroyed. Oh and i do not believe for a moment that he stole anything.

As to the calls for us to take out Un and his cronies, that's not going to happen without WWIII. First of all, South Korea doesn't want it to happen. They cannot absorb the millions of North Korean refugees, unskilled, starving and with nothing but a stripped, decimated wasteland to offset the cost.The fall of North Korea would be devastating to South Korea's economy:
North Korea crisis: Re-unification alone 'would cost $3 trillion' after war, professor says It could take 'at least a decade' for 30 million displaced North Koreans to integrate with South Korea following conflict

“South Korea doesn’t need its impoverished, aggressive, poorly educated brothers to inundate South Korea,” he said. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...president-nuclear-war-ballistic-a7710001.html
But there is growing indifference, doubt and even opposition among ordinary citizens who fear the cultural, social and economic impact could crush their society. "It's still strong as an ideal," said Stephen Epstein, an expert on South Korean society and its images of the North at the University of Victoria in Wellington, New Zealand.
Kim has moved from indifference to outright opposition. Unification is impractical, she said: "There will be a lot of costs and problems. What should we do to help North Korea with cultural and economic issues? It's not just the financial cost. They have had such a different education." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/27/south-north-korea-unification
China too faces the economic toll of refugees flooding their nation. And they will also do everything in their power to prevent the US from setting up camp on their border:
China has taken a few steps toward reining in North Korea, such as cutting off coal exports earlier this year. But it has not wavered in its view that a unified, Western-oriented peninsula would be far more threatening to its core national security interests than anything the North Korean state has done or will do. Unification, China believes, likely would end with the U.S. military on its border, an unacceptable risk. In turn, China has refused to take the necessary steps to really damage the North Korean regime, such as closing its border, blocking the flow of North Korean worker remittances, or enforcing a blockade against North Korean shipping. http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/07/18/china-north-korea-american-troops-removal-000476
And China is in a treaty with North Korea that mandates that China goes to war with any nation that attacks north korea:
The Contracting Parties undertake jointly to adopt all measures to prevent aggression against either of the Contracting Parties by any state. In the event of one of the Contracting Parties being subjected to the armed attack by any state or several states jointly and thus being involved in a state of war, the other Contracting Party shall immediately render military and other assistance by all means at its disposal. http://thediplomat.com/2017/08/chin...utual-defense-treaty-but-when-would-it-apply/
We can't just "take out' Kim Jong Un or attack north korea. The result would be a profound change to the world as we know it. It would be WWIII.

It's amazing how last summer we weren't talking about going to war with this crazy country. Now suddenly we are and people are thirsting for it, regardless or ignorant of the extreme cost to us all should it happen.
 
Right. The coroner's report showed no changes to his teeth or any signs of significant bone breaks/fractures or scars that would show torture.

I also note that what they described - deaf, blind and howling - can apply to anyone in a vegetative state. I looked it up. Moaning and such happens in vegetative states and it is unlikely he was able to process any information.

Can PVS Patients Talk?

It’s important to note that those in persistent vegetative states are unable to speak and, for the most part, unable to respond to vocal commands (Again, those with the strongest degrees of consciousness may be able to respond to minimal stimuli). Instead, they are limited to certain noises, most of which are involuntarily made.Noises commonly made by patients in persistent vegetative states include:

  • crying
  • grunting
  • laughing
  • moaning
  • screaming
http://www.brainandspinalcord.org/persistent-vegetative-state-pvs/

I think it is possible he was poisoned, deprived of oxygen, like partially drowned or suffocated, or was given contaminated food which caused botulism. Botulism can cause respiratory failure and some of the medicines used to treat it, well, with their extremely primitive medical system, I can see Otto experiencing brain injury from various things that could happen in that hellhole.

But regardless if this was a case of accidental food poisoning and horrific medical care, it WAS torture. It's clear that he wasn't given the care most political prisoners over there get. They took it up a notch.

And for this to be the result of an alleged theft of a poster? That's torture in my book.

I feel so sorry for his family. A healthy, promising young man comes back destroyed. Oh and i do not believe for a moment that he stole anything.

As to the calls for us to take out Un and his cronies, that's not going to happen without WWIII. First of all, South Korea doesn't want it to happen. They cannot absorb the millions of North Korean refugees, unskilled, starving and with nothing but a stripped, decimated wasteland to offset the cost.The fall of North Korea would be devastating to South Korea's economy:
China too faces the economic toll of refugees flooding their nation. And they will also do everything in their power to prevent the US from setting up camp on their border:
And China is in a treaty with North Korea that mandates that China goes to war with any nation that attacks north korea:
We can't just "take out' Kim Jong Un or attack north korea. The result would be a profound change to the world as we know it. It would be WWIII.

It's amazing how last summer we weren't talking about going to war with this crazy country. Now suddenly we are and people are thirsting for it, regardless or ignorant of the extreme cost to us all should it happen.

My immediate and initial thoughts were similar to yours. I thought he'd most likely been tortured via oxygen deprivation after repeatedly forcing his head under water for extended periods of time. :(


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Right. The coroner's report showed no changes to his teeth or any signs of significant bone breaks/fractures or scars that would show torture.

I also note that what they described - deaf, blind and howling - can apply to anyone in a vegetative state. I looked it up. Moaning and such happens in vegetative states and it is unlikely he was able to process any information.

Can PVS Patients Talk?

It’s important to note that those in persistent vegetative states are unable to speak and, for the most part, unable to respond to vocal commands (Again, those with the strongest degrees of consciousness may be able to respond to minimal stimuli). Instead, they are limited to certain noises, most of which are involuntarily made.Noises commonly made by patients in persistent vegetative states include:

  • crying
  • grunting
  • laughing
  • moaning
  • screaming
http://www.brainandspinalcord.org/persistent-vegetative-state-pvs/

I think it is possible he was poisoned, deprived of oxygen, like partially drowned or suffocated, or was given contaminated food which caused botulism. Botulism can cause respiratory failure and some of the medicines used to treat it, well, with their extremely primitive medical system, I can see Otto experiencing brain injury from various things that could happen in that hellhole.

But regardless if this was a case of accidental food poisoning and horrific medical care, it WAS torture. It's clear that he wasn't given the care most political prisoners over there get. They took it up a notch.

And for this to be the result of an alleged theft of a poster? That's torture in my book.

I feel so sorry for his family. A healthy, promising young man comes back destroyed. Oh and i do not believe for a moment that he stole anything.

As to the calls for us to take out Un and his cronies, that's not going to happen without WWIII. First of all, South Korea doesn't want it to happen. They cannot absorb the millions of North Korean refugees, unskilled, starving and with nothing but a stripped, decimated wasteland to offset the cost.The fall of North Korea would be devastating to South Korea's economy:
China too faces the economic toll of refugees flooding their nation. And they will also do everything in their power to prevent the US from setting up camp on their border:
And China is in a treaty with North Korea that mandates that China goes to war with any nation that attacks north korea:
We can't just "take out' Kim Jong Un or attack north korea. The result would be a profound change to the world as we know it. It would be WWIII.

It's amazing how last summer we weren't talking about going to war with this crazy country. Now suddenly we are and people are thirsting for it, regardless or ignorant of the extreme cost to us all should it happen.

I agree. More than anything else, I hate to think about all of the innocent lives that would be taken if we attacked North Korea. A large majority of NK citizens have absolutely zero knowledge about what is going on outside of the country or have any idea their lives are clutching onto a very steep ledge right now. However, I'm a tad concerned that Kim Jong-un will make a dumb decision that will leave the rest of the world with no other choice but to retaliate.

I think Kim Jung-un is incredibly ignorant (and damn near delusional) about how inept his military capabilities are in comparison to ours. He's been drinking the Kool-Aid he uses to brainwash the rest of the country for so long that he doesn't know how to separate his BS lies from reality anymore.


ETA: my apologies for the two separate replies.
 
I agree. More than anything else, I hate to think about all of the innocent lives that would be taken if we attacked North Korea. A large majority of NK citizens have absolutely zero knowledge about what is going on outside of the country or have any idea their lives are clutching onto a very steep ledge right now. However, I'm a tad concerned that Kim Jong-un will make a dumb decision that will leave the rest of the world with no other choice but to retaliate.

I think Kim Jung-un is incredibly ignorant (and damn near delusional) about how inept his military capabilities are in comparison to ours. He's been drinking the Kool-Aid he uses to brainwash the rest of the country for so long that he doesn't know how to separate his BS lies from reality anymore.


ETA: my apologies for the two separate replies.
ITA. My thoughts, too, have been on the innocent citizens of NoKo who would suffer if war erupted. I don't believe war is the answer. At times I become so angry at Kim Jung-un that I wish someone would obliterate NoKo, but then I think of those innocent people. IMO, wars don't solve anything and the lives lost are not worth it.

IMO, Kim Jung-un is a narcissistic sociopath. He believes he is smarter and more powerful than anyone else. He satisfies his ego by manipulating people---including his regime, the citizens of NoKo, tourists, and other world leaders. He is unable to sympathize or empathize with anyone. In his tiny mind, people are his puppets and he thrives on seeing/hearing their reactions to his words and actions.
 
As for no injuries apparent that indicated torture, you have to remember that Otto had been in this condition for nearly a year, if I remember correctly. So many injuries could have healed in that time. But as mentioned above, the loss of oxygen could easily have been done in a way that would leave few if any apparent injuries, ie drowning. There was some mentioned of a large scar on his foot. But the issue of his teeth is disturbing. I also seem to remember the physicians saying it was extremely unlikely that botulism would cause this. I think it is more than evident that he was tortured or severely mistreated by his captors in some fashion. It is inexcusable. That is a bit unusual. Americans or westerners that had previously been detained, even convicted, in the North usually were treated fairly well. Why was it different this time?

As for the prospect of war, I don't think anyone is thirsting for it. The difference is that Kim has started launching increasingly advanced rockets, now over the top of Japan, and detonating nuclear bombs. Clear violations of international law and existing sanctions. We have gone from the North being a nuisance to being a very legitimate and immediate threat. Kim Jong Un's execution over the last several years of high ranking officials and assassination of his brother (with nerve agents) indicates to me that his grip on power is shaky and being threatened (or at least he feels his rule is being threatened). That makes him incredibly dangerous and unpredictable. I think it is wise to continue to remind Kim that if he were to launch an ICBM at the US, or to bomb Japan or South Korea, the consequences WILL be a massive retaliation. That is our best defense at this point.
 
Idk about you but someone's not being truthful, and I find it rather hard to believe it's the parents.

I do not believe the ME and I will tell you why.

I just finished a true crime book. The ME in the book was proven to have lied on this particular autopsy and then to find out others also. Why? Drugs, politics, money in pockets and threats to keep their mouths shut on what they knew.The money from the drugs was to big to refuse. The ME was from Eygpt and even used the excuse of a language barrier. But he had powerful people protecting him. So it can happen and it did.
I believe the parents, if they say Otto's teeth were rearranged I believe them.I and every parent would know what their childrens teeth look like.
I think this is horrible and the parents should pursue it.
 
I do not believe the ME and I will tell you why.

I just finished a true crime book. The ME in the book was proven to have lied on this particular autopsy and then to find out others also. Why? Drugs, politics, money in pockets and threats to keep their mouths shut on what they knew.The money from the drugs was to big to refuse. The ME was from Eygpt and even used the excuse of a language barrier. But he had powerful people protecting him. So it can happen and it did.
I believe the parents, if they say Otto's teeth were rearranged I believe them.I and every parent would know what their childrens teeth look like.
I think this is horrible and the parents should pursue it.

Agreed.
Why would his parents make up such a horrible story about their son? The seething vehemence evident in Mr. Warmbier's voice as he describes Otto's condition in that Fox News interview is plenty enough to convince me that his claims are true.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I do not believe the ME and I will tell you why.
...
I believe the parents, if they say Otto's teeth were rearranged I believe them.I and every parent would know what their childrens teeth look like.
I think this is horrible and the parents should pursue it.

How do you think the teeth can be rearranged? One can pull teeth out with pliers, But how exactly does one rearrange them with pliers? It's not like the teeth can be moved from one location to the other.
 
How do you think the teeth can be rearranged? One can pull teeth out with pliers, But how exactly does one rearrange them with pliers? It's not like the teeth can be moved from one location to the other.

Sorry I think that is the wrong word to be used. His parents said they were mangled. Some form of torture for them to be mangled.
I really do not know much about torture but I stand steadfast with the parents and believe them.
 
How do you think the teeth can be rearranged? One can pull teeth out with pliers, But how exactly does one rearrange them with pliers? It's not like the teeth can be moved from one location to the other.

I think his dad just meant that Otto's teeth appeared to be misaligned and/or crooked and had never been that way in the past.

There are actually several things that might cause malocclusion later on in life:

- poor dental hygiene that leads to periodontitis (a serious gum infection that damages the tissue and bone surrounding the teeth and may cause teeth to loosen)

- an injury that results in the misalignment of the jaw

- bruxism (excessive teeth grinding or jaw clenching)

- an airway obstruction
 
[video=cnn;us/2017/09/26/otto-warmbier-parents-describe-sons-condition-baldwin-nr-sot.cnn]http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/health/otto-warmbier-coroner-report/index.html[/video]
Sept 29 2017
The report -- an external examination, not an autopsy -- describes a 4.3-by-1.6-inch scar on Warmbier's right foot. Parents Fred and Cindy Warmbier mentioned this scar during an interview with CNN's Brooke Baldwin on Tuesday, when they broke their three-month silence."How do you get a scar that covers the entire top of your foot?" Cindy Warmbier asked. "(The coroner) said it had to be an open wound for months and months and months.
"
[video=cnn;world/2017/06/21/otto-warmbier-north-korea-donald-trump-todd-dnt-tsr.cnn]http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/21/health/otto-warmbier-autopsy/index.html[/video]

What an autopsy may (or may not) have revealed about Otto Warmbier's death



The coroner's report did not include this last detail. It describes a number of smaller scars, but does not contain details as to what caused them or how long they had been there.

The report also offers information that seemingly conflicts with his parents' account.

"His bottom teeth look like they had taken a pair of pliers and rearranged them," Fred Warmbier said. However, the coroner's report says, "the teeth are natural and in good repair."

Hamilton County Coroner Dr. Lakshmi Kode Sammarco addressed the discrepancy, speaking at a news conference Wednesday. She said her team, which included a forensic dentist, evaluated Warmbier's body as well as various scans of his body.

"I felt very comfortable that there wasn't any evidence of trauma" to the teeth or jawbone, Sammarco said. "We were surprised at (the parents') statement."

Fred Warmbier told CNN on Wednesday the family will not be commenting further.
"The family's objection to an autopsy was honored, and only an external examination was performed," the coroner's office said in a statement in June.
 
I hope the parents got a photo of his teeth , so if this coroner is lying they can call him on it. I just can't imagine why they would fabricate something like that.
 
[video=cnn;us/2017/09/26/otto-warmbier-parents-describe-sons-condition-baldwin-nr-sot.cnn]http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/health/otto-warmbier-coroner-report/index.html[/video]
Sept 29 2017
"
[video=cnn;world/2017/06/21/otto-warmbier-north-korea-donald-trump-todd-dnt-tsr.cnn]http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/21/health/otto-warmbier-autopsy/index.html[/video]

I wonder why the parents chose not to have a full autopsy done?? I just think so much more would have been seen. Old injuries etc.
 
I wonder why the parents chose not to have a full autopsy done?? I just think so much more would have been seen. Old injuries etc.

I'm surprised the family could block an autopsy in this situation.

Here in the UK, where there is a suspicious death the coroner orders a full PM and it's carried out. The only exceptions are where there are religious factors (usually involving Muslims and Orthodox Jews) and an external and/or non-invasive examination is sufficient to satisfactorily determine the CoD. If a full PM needs to be carried out where a crime is known or suspected, then it is carried out regardless of the family's wishes. However, where there are religious sensitivies MRI scans and similar are now being used to avoid interfering with the body unless absolutely necessary.
 
If I didn't already post this, here is my take:

NK has a long history of punishing 3 generations of families when one member is convicted of a crime. Parents, grandparents, siblings and children of the convict can be, and are, imprisoned at hard labor for long terms with the objective that they all perish from the horrid conditions.

When NK returned Otto is this state, they did so only to punish his siblings and parents who were then witness to his suffering before death, since NK could not send them to a physical prison, they were sentenced to mental torture.

This is what we are dealing with in NK. Cruelty beyond comprehension, complete disregard for human life and dignity, elevation of a human to a god, rape as punishment, babies of those rapes fed to guard dogs, surgical removal of limbs as punishment, starvation of the unwanted and cannibalism are the hallmarks of the NK culture.

That people can mouth the words that Trump is worse than Kim Un is simply gobsmacking in its ignorance.
 
I wonder why the parents chose not to have a full autopsy done?? I just think so much more would have been seen. Old injuries etc.

I do not understand this one either.

As for the teeth. If they weren't broken or missing then the report would list them as being in normal condition. Crooked teeth can be normal. However, the parents know the difference, so I take them at their opinion that his teeth were in fact, yanked around with pliers.

The Japanese used to file down the teeth of American POW's to the gum line, exposing the nerves to inflict maximum pain and of course without anesthesia. These are some brutal people, yet we worry about water boarding which leaves no permanent physical damage and which the prisoner survives. It is mind boggling how naive people are.
 
I do not understand this one either.

As for the teeth. If they weren't broken or missing then the report would list them as being in normal condition. Crooked teeth can be normal. However, the parents know the difference, so I take them at their opinion that his teeth were in fact, yanked around with pliers.

The Japanese used to file down the teeth of American POW's to the gum line, exposing the nerves to inflict maximum pain and of course without anesthesia. These are some brutal people, yet we worry about water boarding which leaves no permanent physical damage and which the prisoner survives. It is mind boggling how naive people are.

Yup.....
 
I'm surprised the family could block an autopsy in this situation.

Here in the UK, where there is a suspicious death the coroner orders a full PM and it's carried out. The only exceptions are where there are religious factors (usually involving Muslims and Orthodox Jews) and an external and/or non-invasive examination is sufficient to satisfactorily determine the CoD. If a full PM needs to be carried out where a crime is known or suspected, then it is carried out regardless of the family's wishes. However, where there are religious sensitivies MRI scans and similar are now being used to avoid interfering with the body unless absolutely necessary.

The family is Jewish.
 
I do not understand this one either.

As for the teeth. If they weren't broken or missing then the report would list them as being in normal condition. Crooked teeth can be normal. However, the parents know the difference, so I take them at their opinion that his teeth were in fact, yanked around with pliers.

The Japanese used to file down the teeth of American POW's to the gum line, exposing the nerves to inflict maximum pain and of course without anesthesia. These are some brutal people, yet we worry about water boarding which leaves no permanent physical damage and which the prisoner survives. It is mind boggling how naive people are.

That doesn't make sense to me. Crooked teeth can be normal, but if they are made crooked with pliers, then I can't believe anybody would described them as normal.
 

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