TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2

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Cryptic said:
He may well have been. The reports do say "court martial". At the same time, battalion commanders can also hold Article 15 administrative procedures and assign a penalty of 1 year confinement, bad conduct discharge.

Then factor in that he may have started out as a judicial Court Martial with the potential for a criminal conviction, but then moved to an administrative Article 15 with the maximum punishment being given.

The report also refers to a 'Colonel'. Battalion commanders are Lieutenant Colonels. The more senior Colonel officer implies a full Court Martial. In the end, I think it is best to wait for the military to clarify whether it was administrative or judicial.


This syntax, instead of "pled guilty", seems to imply admitting the facts in an administrative hearing (article 15) and not a full court martial.
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Dude. No.

Under Pentagon rules, information about convictions of military personnel in crimes like assault should be submitted to the FBI's Criminal Justice Investigation Services Division.
Earlier in the day, authorities said they were trying to determine why a court-martial for assaulting his first wife and her child did not prevent Kelley from buying a Ruger AR-556 rifle used in the attack.
Federal gun regulations prohibit anyone with a domestic violence conviction, even at a misdemeanor level, from purchasing a gun, and Kelley was found guilty in 2012 of two charges of assault after an Air Force court-martial, according to officials. He was confined in a military prison for a year, given a bad conduct discharge and reduced in rank.



https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/nat...exas-Shooter-Buy-Assault-Rifle-455643723.html
 
gitana1 said:
Why? Why wouldn't they?
Click to expand...
From The Hill article I just posted:

"The Air Force has launched a review of how the service handled the criminal records of former Airman Devin P. Kelley following his 2012 domestic violence conviction," the Air Force said in a statement provided to the Times. "Federal law prohibited him from buying or possessing firearms after this conviction."



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kittythehare said:
I think honestly its a mistake to nationalise this crime.. gun laws are not great, I know that.

BUT, lets not deny that there is a massive upsurge in mindless violence worldwide.
Not all countries have guns readily available.
But they have chainsaws, hammers hatchets, iron bars.. all manner of murder weapons..

The real issue to be explored is the DESIRE TO KILL.

Have humans become so totally disempowered that the only action they feel capable of taking is an act of utter destruction?

Apportioning blame on a nationality, a weapon, a law is not only futile..history proves that.. it also avoids the core issue..

Change will occur when people receive correct education from a very very early age.
Education on coping with their own personal torment..
This is missing from every school curriculum in the world..
People do not know how to cope.. they have no clue.. supports are there but they dont know how to go looking for them.
Nobody wants an insanity diagnosis because societies frown upon it..

In every small town in every country in the world, there exist a handful of people, spurned by their communities because they dont fit in..
Psychiatry is a shambles.
Its up to us as individuals to show a little more kindness to those who clearly need it but never receive it.

Even if everybody who reads this makes a decision to be a little kinder , to search out the forgotten ones, to give , change would be effected..
We're not children. Looking to government or LE to save us from ourselves is both juvenile and futile.

WE are the ones that lost the plot.
We were in that condition when we elected our governments, so they are less than useful and potentially dangerous.
The arc has swung too far to the right.. to the cold place where man's humanity to man is received with little more than a yawn..
Click to expand...

Wow. Powerful.
 
Article from WaPo on the Air Force failure.

[video=twitter;927679661148200960]https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/927679661148200960[/video]

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thepinkdragon said:
He broke his stepsons skull in 2012.... WHY wasn't it a Dishonorable? Talk about beyond bad conduct.....

https://nyti.ms/2hKKqrT

ETA: https://legaldictionary.net/dishonorable-discharge/

This has a summary of the types of discharges. I posted it in Thread 1. The distinction here is that you can still buy a weapon with a bad conduct discharge and that also allowed him to get a permit as a Security Guard. Now I know why I couldn't find the record of his court martial... how did they think they were going to hide what he did?


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excuse me ?
 
gitana1 said:
Why? Why wouldn't they?
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they probably forgot, that is all.
If they missed anything, its that they did not arrange ongoing psychological support for him..help he could trust and would remain constant in his life.
If he goes missing- go look for him.. dont just file it.. search..
Was he violent pre army days?
Did he crack while he was in the army?
Many do.
I'm not sure there are sufficient supports for them or that their mental health is properly taken into consideration prior to being asked to perform Herculean tasks..
 
vmmking said:
Air Force says it failed to enter Texas gunman's court martial into database

http://thehill.com/homenews/news/35...texas-gunmans-court-martial-into-database?amp

The Air Force failed to enter the Texas church shooter's domestic violence conviction into a federal database used for background checks on gun sales - a move that could have prevented him from purchasing a rifle used in Sunday's shooting.

The Air Force said in a statement provided to*The New York Times*that it hadn't put Devin Kelley's court-martial for domestic assault into the database used to run background checks for firearm sales.

Kelley had been court-martialed in 2012 for assaulting his wife and stepson, including cracking the infant's skull.

The conviction likely would have prevented Kelley from buying the military-style rifle that he used in the shooting, as well as three other guns he had purchased over the past four years, the Times reported.

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Click to expand...

I'm hoping we can put this to rest now, as far as this guy's criminal background:

"The Air Force has launched a review of how the service handled the criminal records of former Airman Devin P. Kelley following his 2012 domestic violence conviction," the Air Force said in a statement provided to the Times. "Federal law prohibited him from buying or possessing firearms after this conviction."
 
CARIIS said:
excuse me ?
Click to expand...

Don't worry, his conviction precluded him form obtaining one. Or SHOULD have, because it was for domestic violence.

vmmking said:
From The Hill article I just posted:

"The Air Force has launched a review of how the service handled the criminal records of former Airman Devin P. Kelley following his 2012 domestic violence conviction," the Air Force said in a statement provided to the Times. "Federal law prohibited him from buying or possessing firearms after this conviction."

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Click to expand...

kittythehare said:
they probably forgot, that is all.
If they missed anything, its that they did not arrange ongoing psychological support for him..help he could trust and would remain constant in his life.
If he goes missing- go look for him.. dont just file it.. search..
Was he violent pre army days?
Did he crack while he was in the army?
Many do.
I'm not sure there are sufficient supports for them or that their mental health is properly taken into consideration prior to being asked to perform Herculean tasks..
Click to expand...

Wow. Pretty upsetting.
 
Cryptic said:
I don't know.

Likewise, it is not clear whether he was given an administrative conviction or a criminal conviction. Though the length of his sentence (one year) implies criminal, administrative punishments can also be up to a year:

Though breaking a child's skull is not a minor offense, perhaps other elements made a criminal conviction difficult?

3.The commander may dispose of the offense with nonjudicial punishment. Article 15, UCMJ, is a means of handling minor offenses requiring immediate corrective action. A minor offense is one for which the maximum sentence imposable at a court-martial would not include a dishonorable discharge or confinement in excess of one year.
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want to be very respectful here


this is military cover up

breaking a kids skull


thats manslaughter

as his stuff broke

this is not a family conflict

this is a very sick man

i have been at delusional

am moving psychotic episodes

skull is really hard

here we are

acute untreated mental illiness


again

and so it goes

again

animals too

we are in for a horrid ride my friends
 
gitana1 said:
It does not matter. He was convicted of a domestic violence -related crime and thus federally, could not even possess, let alone buy, a firearm.

Someone else posted that the length of his sentence precluded gun ownership as well, which I did not know.
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I thought that as well, the kicker here is that the Air Force failed to take the proper steps to ensure he could not buy firearms or be a security guard. I knew this was hinky from the beginning.


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gitana1 said:
Why? Why wouldn't they?
Click to expand...



Makes you wonder if it's a "numbers" thing. Like: "How many service personnel have been convicted of crimes during their tenure, and lost their gun rights?"

I don't believe the military wants any negative publicity........they still don't have their VA hospitals up to snuff, vets from this 16 year "war" still aren't getting the services they need, to say nothing about the men and women from previous "wars". ie., Desert Storm, Viet Nam, Korea, et al................
 
CARIIS said:
want to be very respectful here


this is military cover up

breaking a kids skull


thats manslaughter

as his stuff broke

this is not a family conflict

this is a very sick man

i have been at delusional

am moving psychotic episodes

skull is really hard

here we are

acute untreated mental illiness


again

and so it goes

again

animals too

we are in for a horrid ride my friends
Click to expand...

Thank you CARIIS. Peace. Prayers. [emoji174]


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And especially in Texas! Sorry I’m outraged [emoji34]


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thepinkdragon said:
I thought that as well, the kicker here is that the Air Force failed to take the proper steps to ensure he could not buy firearms or be a security guard. I knew this was hinky from the beginning.


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Click to expand...

Man. You really sensed something. This is unconscionable.
 
breaking a childs skull

we are talking about an out of control human being

i was surprised how quick she divorced him

that is a violent scary person psychotic at times

the speed of the divorce was telling to me

what did he do to her
 
I would like to address what I posted earlier and why.

First, in no way shape or form do I blame his parents. My heart breaks for them, and he has left them victims themselves.

What I meant when I said his parents may have coddled or catered to him growing up it was not done to spoil him but to appease their son who seemed to be a very angry hostile teen even back then.

I cant even imagine how difficult it was for them to raise a difficult child like he seemed to be. I don't believe he was abused by his parents since he wasn't scared to verbally abuse them in front of others according to his school friends.

I think his parents most likely walked around on eggshells trying not to ignite his anger. If they did coddle or give into him during his tantrums I believe it was because that was the only way they felt they could have some semblance of peace in the home. I do believe that at times they could have been fearful of their own son.

He seemed to know no boundaries...even in the AF. Any reasonable minded person who joins any of the armed service branches knows or should know it is highly important to keep their 'nose clean.' He had to know core values are very important when serving in the military. Yet he must have severely assaulted his ex-wife and child to land him in the brig for a year and then resulting in a bad conduct discharge. Its like he thought rules do not apply to him. It makes me wonder if he also may have physically abused one or both of his parents and they never told anyone. I think he has long been a very angry young man blaming his problems and wrongdoings on others instead of his own poor choices.

I think he may also be a pathological liar. The other church said he only volunteered for a few short hours on ONE day teaching bible studies and he had no affiliation with that church. From what I also read he was fired after working a little over 5 weeks as an unarmed security guard.

But never would I blame his parents for his own actions. He had to be a handful and then some when growing up, imo. We will probably never know the hell he may have put them through when they were alone inside of their home with him.

I think they gave him a place to live on their property because they knew he wouldn't keep a job for long and at least his wife, and child would have a roof over their head.

Again, my heart goes out to his parents as well as everyone who has been affected by the grief and sadness he has caused.

JMO
 
gitana1 said:
Man. You really sensed something. This is unconscionable.
Click to expand...

In the 23 years I've been associated with the military as either a soldier and/or spouse, when I couldn't find ANYTHING summarizing his court martial via AF JAG or the AF times online I KNEW they were trying to hide something. I missed the Lexis Nexis link at first that was posted in the first thread, which showed it was a bad conduct discharge. Initially the Air Force claimed it was a Dishonorable and that was what the media ran with. Then the Pentagon said he was an Airman once but wouldn't comment further. Why they thought they could hide the truth is beyond me; but I'm not surprised. In fact nothing about the military these days surprises me at all and it's a disgrace.


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