TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2

Bill Carson said:

I wonder if there is any correlation between violent video games and gun ownership?

One thing is certain, there are millions and millions of semi-automatic weapons owned by millions and millions of Americans, and the vast, vast majority of them aren't used to commit mass murders. (I'm just observing, and not advocating for or against gun control here.)

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There is a correlation between higher levels of gun ownership and higher firearm homicide rates, states with higher rates of gun ownership have disproportionately large numbers of deaths from firearm-related homicides, and weaker gun laws are common among the states with higher gun death rates. And gun owners are more likely to be killed with their own weapon (including killing themselves) or kill a loved one than use it to shoot a bad guy.

Just sharing the facts, not advocating either way.

What violent video games did DK play? What TV shows did he watch?

bluesneakers said:

What violent video games did DK play? What TV shows did he watch?

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That goes into the big folder of stuff we will probably never know.

Bill Carson said:

I can't imagine seeing DK's own child, and having a nagging suspicion that he might turn out the exact same way as his daddy.

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I think that will come later. I think right now it's more survival mode.
Later when the child starts to misbehave those thoughts will come I am sure.
Torture for her either way.

jjenny said:

Considering his charges for injuring step son, not sure why him being capable of hurting children would come as a surprise to his current wife.

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I'm assuming for now that she did not know about that.
Obviously if it comes out that she did, I'd change that view.

bluesneakers said:

You believe it, but I wonder if you have a link to a study or some research? I'm open-minded and curious.

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That's just my personal experience.

That gut feeling when you see that pre-schooler who's just not "right", and 10-15 years down the road they've done something horrific.

The most specific incident I can relate is a school mate of my son's. From the moment I met him at 6 years of age, I thought this kid is going to end up in a tower shooting people. He didn't wait that long, at 11 years of age, he brutally attacked his mother with an ax. My son is 30 now, I have no idea where this kid is currently but he was sentenced to juvie until he was 18.

A schoolmate of my daughter's I met at 10, same feeling............he's been in and out of juvie/prison (since 14) for sexual assaults/rape (among other things) on minors. My daughter is 36. Last I heard, Jason was still in prison.

I live in a rural area, maybe that makes for being more observant?

BTW: The parents of these 2 had other children who were well adjusted and went on to be great adults and parents.

CARIIS said:

The neurotransmitter illnesses are not mutually exclusive . Often an individual suffers with both.

AS it sounds most folks do fall into duel diagnosis situtions.

there are basically two "lines (Axis) we diagnose on.

Axis one is basically the neurotranmitter stuff. Boloar, Schizophrenia, Dpression to name a couple

on Axis two are the personalitiy disorders. Basically they are sperated because gnerally speaking the personality disorders (by there very nature) are not considered treatable - in the context of the way medical views treatable.

They are persuavive , for most of the time stable over time and are maladaptive ways of intereacting with the world , and people.

DSM-5 lists ten personality disorders, and allocates each to one of three groups or ‘clusters’: A, B, or C
Cluster A (Odd, bizarre, eccentric)
Paranoid PD, Schizoid PD, Schizotypal PD
Cluster B (Dramatic, erratic)
Antisocial PD, Borderline PD, Histrionic PD, Narcissistic PD
Cluster C (Anxious, fearful)
Avoidant PD, Dependent PD, Obsessive-compulsive PD

personality disorder can be diagnosed if there are significant impairments in self and interpersonal functioning together with one or more pathological personality traits. In addition, these features must be (1) relatively stable across time and consistent across situations, (2) not better understood as normative for the individual’s developmental stage or socio-cultural environment, and (3) not solely due to the direct effects of a substance or general medical condition. they are more the product of historical observation than of scientific study, and thus that they are rather vague and imprecise constructs. As a result, they rarely present in their classic ‘textbook’ form, but instead tend to blur into one another. Their division into three clusters in DSM-5 is intended to reflect this tendency, with any given personality disorder most likely to blur with other personality disorders within its cluster.

In terms of media they blur terms- especially in these types of situations. Psychopath, Sociopath are the precursers to what is now known as Antisocial Personality Disorder.

No One is diagnosed as either of them any longer. There old terms for similar characteristics.

The majority of people with a personality disorder never come into contact with mental healthhealth services

Accurate diagnosis in mental health
is far more difficult than medical, typically.

It depends on how they present in the minute they are with you. That can be markedly different than what they were experiencing yesterday or tomorrow. Or next week.

You also often getting info from folks that are the describing the individual. That can have a total subjective world view those reports.

In addition the system demands that one diagnosis in the first visit.

Medical does not make a diagnosis until they have some impressions!

They can be modified over time of course, but often the more acute the likelihood of them attending regularly and consistently drops with acuity.

So in essence an individual that has a long psyc history "comes with" an historic myriad of previous diagnosis -- blurring the pool!!

Media does this often -- I remember they did it with the cascade mall guy. They report it like it was all past diagnosis , when in reality in all likelihood the diagnosis were actually the psyc history , over time, determined by what was observed at the time of eval .

In the media he was a walking DSM-5--the bible of the field!!

Some of them are actually precursors or "developing" with the passage of time and age.

Conduct disorders are typically applied to what in reality is a budding anti social personality disordered individual. Kinda like a movie teaser.

Just making it up - it would look like

Axis 1 : Major Depression (which otten is bipolar presenting at the time in the depressed stage of bipolar. ) This often sets off a cascade of problems for the poor pt.

A lot of the meds for uni polar depression (major depression) totally exacerbate symptoms that are actually bipolar disorder. (there are many flavors of bipolar)

Through the pts history a lot of the side effects can be documented as symptoms as opposed to the side effect profile.

Things get worse. The side effect profiles for a bipolar individual being treated for uni polar depression (major depression) can be hideous.

Which then results in medication no compliance . The hurricane is intensifying. Now you have a person that is actually suffering with bipolar, having side effects from the major depression cluster of meds - blurring everything more and more.

Understandably the individual that has been going through this hell for years - becomes less than enchanted with medications! So medication non compliance increases through time.

So basically you end up with presenting clinical impressions, history which can be muddled up by actually being a side effect of meds, varying reports from others around the person (which can also be scooped up in the side effects ) when being described by another person.

Put on an British accent: Quite frankly darling tis quite a mess!

I am sure this man will be emerge with a long history of varying diagnoses - which in essence in really incorrect diagnosis in the past.

As time passed i started using (generally speaking) promiscuity as being very helpful in in diagnosis IMO, between major depression and an individual in the depressed phase of what is actually bipolar.

In most instances folks suffering with uni polar /major depression do not have the energy or want to be wildly promiscuous! Takes energy!

But the bipolar in the manic phase can often be promiscuous. Money stuff was helpful as well. An individual with major depression is rarely in the mood to go shopping!

Shopping is fun fun fun when manic!!!

OCD and anxiety can blur at times as well!

Same with schizophrenia -- there are many flavors of it !

It all is actually a lot like ice cream. Ice cream IS ice cream - but the flavors are widely different!

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201205/the-10-personality-disorders

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This is so, just, true! Ya almost gotta live with the person. After talking to me, the doc was like, I know what it is and there's no cure. I'll never forget that day. He's the one that gave me the stop sign analogy. Ever heard the song or saw the video, Hate Me, by Blue October?

rosemadderlake said:

BBMs: and, IMO- a child's mind is VERY impressionable. I grew up in a high tech household, high fidelity stereo turntable and awesome speakers, and eventually a Sony Trinitron TV with rabbit ears to get the nine or ten channels available. ... Phone on the wall, etc...

Saturday mornings was cartoon time in pajamas. Laying like little beached seals on the floor two feet in front of the TV, my sisters and I delighted in Wile E Coyote getting obliterated at every turn... We delighted in the 'Eh, what's up Doc?' of the smartest bunny in the world. And we used to mimic Boris & Natasha in their epic Cold War spy games on Bullwinkle. Violence was no stranger in cartoon land.
.

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[emoji852][emoji24]

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human said:

I wonder why the US is the leader ?

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Simple, because:

1. We have a mental health system that is a total joke. Which leaves people with serious untreated mental illnesses walking the streets.

2. A gun control system, which is also a total joke. Which gives easy access to weapons of mass destruction to people in #1.

It can only get worse until both issues are fixed. #1 is like a barrel of gasoline. #2 is like throwing lit matches into the gasoline, and then people act all surprised each time it all blows up.

KaaBoom said:

Simple, because:

1. We have a mental health system that is a total joke. Which leaves people with serious untreated mental illnesses walking the streets.

2. A gun control system, which is also a total joke. Which gives easy access to weapons of mass destruction to people in #1.

It can only get worse until both issues are fixed. #1 is like a barrel of gasoline. #2 is like throwing lit matches into the gasoline, and then people act all surprised each time it all blows up.

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The social safety net is also less secure than most other developed nations. I'm surprised there aren't more homeless people, actually. Desperate people do desperate things.

Bill Carson said:

I can't imagine seeing DK's own child, and having a nagging suspicion that he might turn out the exact same way as his daddy.

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If she's lived with him very long and he has a personality disorder, believe me, she's already been looking for signs, in her child, and DPK's parents have been scanning for signs, too, in their grandchild.

CoverMeCagney said:

Which case was that, DeDee?

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CoverMeCagney, I read the question in your post yesterday and attempted a time consuming futile search for that particular Dallas, TX murder.

However, even when searching a specific time range on google, the murder was not attainable for me. MB was murdered in Midlothian, TX on April 18, 2016 when she entered the Church to Coach CG participants.

Limited by time constraints, make it impossible to search this thread to see if someone else was able to answer the question in regards to the murder victim, who answered the doorbell, being shot by an impersonator dressed in a [fake] Police Uniform.

Therefore, the murder occurred prior to April 2016 by an impersonator wearing a [fake] Police Uniform that rang the doorbell of the targeted victim. My best guess is it occurred with an 18 month time frame prior.

1) In order to search for the assassination, using keywords, is essential, because of these reasons.

a) The Dallas sniper who targeted Police Officers google results are shown regardless of a specific timeframe search.
b) The mass shooting in Sutherland Springs, TX is current and fills pages of news regarding the horrendous event.
c) Utilizing the "Anytime" search function proved to be of no value.

To the best of my recollection, as I am not a current resident of the Great State of TX, is that a male impersonated a Police Officer, who then, approached a residence during nightfall and rang a doorbell at the home of the targeted victim.

The motive is not completely recalled but the shooting was either a vendetta imposed by a hired hit on a rival business partner or the husband was the shooter of the victim, thereby, implying the victim to be his heavily insured wife.

Due to the trauma endured by residents in TX, from the mass shooting of targeted Police Officers in Dallas, Hurricane Harvey's devastation, Crystal McDowell's murder in Baytown, and the current crisis in Sutherland Springs, my apologies are extended, for I am not willing, at this time, to approach friends residing in TX in an effort to seek this particular information.

Crystal Seratte McDowell
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...5-Aug-2017-4-*Arrest*&p=13748547#post13748547
.

DeDee said:

To the best of my recollection, as I am not a current resident of the Great State of TX, is that a male impersonated a Police Officer, who then, approached a residence during nightfall and rang a doorbell at the home of the targeted victim.

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You may be thinking of the murders that occurred in Kaufman County, Texas (near Dallas) in 2013. The killer dressed up like a police officer, knocked on the district attorney's door at night, the district attorney's wife answered the door and let him in.

Here's an in-depth article about the crimes.

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/the-killings-in-kaufman-6429583

I personally know one of the people interviewed in this program.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/target...es-texas-prosecutor-killings-hasse-mclelland/

MistyWaters said:

For all we know, DK may have been receiving mental health treatment.

Maybe you followed the Liknes/O'Brien murder case of grandparents and their 5 year old grandson from Calgary? Douglas Garland was eventually convicted and the only apparent motive was he held a grudge involving a business relationship from several years prior. Garland was attending weekly psychiatrist appointments at the time.

Psychiatry is of no benefit unless the patient is cooperative and truly seeking help. Some just do it to appease family members and to give them false hope...

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true. A psychopath has to want to change. Here lies the problem. Can we have them involuntary committed?

BayouBelle_LA said:

Yemen is the leader of mass shootings.

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Yes, we are #2 to Yemen. Does that make you feel better?

https://www.npr.org/2017/11/10/5633...casket-designer-honors-texas-shooting-victims

[h=1]With Shiny Pink And Camo, Casket Designer Honors Texas Shooting Victims[/h]


This is an awesome write up. Kudos to this man, and the people who help him.

x_files said:

true. A psychopath has to want to change. Here lies the problem. Can we have them involuntary committed?

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Yes, peace officer or guardian has the power to get a EDW (emergency detention warrant) for a 48 hour hold in a psychiatric facility.

Sec. 573.001. APPREHENSION BY PEACE OFFICER WITHOUT WARRANT. (a) A peace officer, without a warrant, may take a person into custody if the officer:
(1) has reason to believe and does believe that:
(A) the person is a person with mental illness; and
(B) because of that mental illness there is a substantial risk of serious harm to the person or to others unless the person is immediately restrained; and
(2) believes that there is not sufficient time to obtain a warrant before taking the person into custody.
(b) A substantial risk of serious harm to the person or others under Subsection (a)(1)(B) may be demonstrated by:
(1) the person's behavior; or
(2) evidence of severe emotional distress and deterioration in the person's mental condition to the extent that the person cannot remain at liberty.
(c) The peace officer may form the belief that the person meets the criteria for apprehension:
(1) from a representation of a credible person; or
(2) on the basis of the conduct of the apprehended person or the circumstances under which the apprehended person is found.
(d) A peace officer who takes a person into custody under Subsection (a) shall immediately transport the apprehended person to:
(1) the nearest appropriate inpatient mental health facility; or
(2) a mental health facility deemed suitable by the local mental health authority, if an appropriate inpatient mental health facility is not available.
(e) A jail or similar detention facility may not be deemed suitable except in an extreme emergency.
(f) A person detained in a jail or a nonmedical facility shall be kept separate from any person who is charged with or convicted of a crime.
(g) A peace officer who takes a person into custody under Subsection (a) shall immediately inform the person orally in simple, nontechnical terms:
(1) of the reason for the detention; and
(2) that a staff member of the facility will inform the person of the person's rights within 24 hours after the time the person is admitted to a facility, as provided by Section 573.025(b).
(h) A peace officer who takes a person into custody under Subsection (a) may immediately seize any firearm found in possession of the person. After seizing a firearm under this subsection, the peace officer shall comply with the requirements of Article 18.191, Code of Criminal Procedure.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/HS/htm/HS.573.htm

x_files said:

I agree that sounds right and why no one could seek help for him. But, it can be managed with therapy and treatment but can you force an adult to seek help? So what do we do about psychopaths?

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I hope at some point in the future, DK's parents share some of his history. Do we even have a right to know? I'm in no way blaming his parents, I can't imagine being in their shoes.

x_files said:

true. A psychopath has to want to change. Here lies the problem. Can we have them involuntary committed?

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The thing is, not all psychopaths will end up killing folks or torturing puppies. They all do lack empathy, and the ability to love, or care about other's feelings, though. There seems to be a sub-group that are the Dahmers, Bundys, Radars, etc...

The others that don't fall into that sub-group? They go out into the world and become cut-throat businessmen, politicians, cops, or thriving business owners in the community. One may even work, or live, next to a psychopath who has never committed a crime. However, If they accidentally, ran over a child, while driving down the road, they'd feel nothing. They can become good at mimicking the appropriate emotions for the moment, to blend in, though.

Then, there's the ones who fall into, what I call, a "sub-group" of psychopaths (or, Anti Social Personality Disorder, is what the new name is these days, I guess) then they kill for the fun of it, or because they are bored, it's a hobby, etc... It is something that they enjoy, and they have zero remorse.

The large majority of folks who would be diagnosed as psychopaths/ASPD do not go on rampaging murder sprees, torture their neighbor's pet, or become serial killers.

CARIIS, pleasecorrect my if I'm wrong (I've read up on personality disorders, quite a bit, over the years, but IANA doctor of any kind.).

x_files said:

true. A psychopath has to want to change. Here lies the problem. Can we have them involuntary committed?

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No unfortunately I don't think so, not unless we turn back the clock to the days before individual rights and freedoms. In Canada, where I live, one can only be involuntarily committed for their own safety, if they exhibit suicidal behaviour. But not for the safety of others. Otherwise it's a matter of waiting until they break the law.

DK moved back to his parents acreage only in 2017 iirc. I wonder if that was their hope to keep closer tabs on him, for safety sake in consideration of his wife and children.

margarita25 said:

Active Shooter Resources (many links at this page)
https://www.fbi.gov/about/partnerships/office-of-partner-engagement/active-shooter-resources

Making Prevention a Reality: Identifying, Assessing, and Managing the Threat of Targeted Attacks

This report, a practical guide on assessing and managing the threat of targeted violence, contains concrete strategies to help communities prevent these types of incidents.

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/making-prevention-a-reality.pdf/view

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Good report.