FOUND - Argentine submarine goes missing with 44 crew members on board, November 2017

I would think the logical action would have been to surface the submarine and proceed to port under diesel power. Why didn't they do that?

Assuming that the article is accurate, and as you stated, that is a big "if", I think this patrol was intended to be the re-innauguration of the Argentinian submarine service as a capable force.

To make this possible, the submarine had just been given a 12 million dollar re-fit. This figure seems too low for a full re-fit as I have read of other nations spending tens of millions on sub re-fits due to the complexity of the work and the need for precision.

In either case, the submarine puts to sea after a some what fitting re-fit. There is a lot of pressure to complete this patrol and a completed submarine must be done submerged. So, even after an initial round of problems, the crew is ordered to complete the patrol submerged if at all possible?

As a side note, Chile has brand new submarines and Brazil either has new ones, or has them on order. There is a historical rivalry between Argentina and both these nations. This may have increased pressure to demonstrate that: "Hey, our submarines are old, but still lethal"
What is this sub's crush depth and how deep is the water in this area?
Crush depths are secret. Rather, the only published depth is a maximum diving depth for normal operations- usually about 1,500 feet type figure. The published figure, however, is not the true diving depth.

Even if the snorkle had continued to leak water, it should have been something they could have dealt with. Perhaps the explosion was one of the batteries exploding as a result of being flooded with sea water. That would have released poisonous gases into the submarine, leaving little chance for an inexperienced crew to save themselves.
Good point about water on the batteries releasing a poisonous gas (Chlorine?). Perhaps there were two series of malfunctions:

A. The initial battery short. The crew solves the problem. Radios the problem in: Shore- "Ok, but we really need for this patrol to be successful, stay submerged... ."

B. The crew then uses the diesel via the snorkel to recharge the other battery when it runs low. Another malfunction occurs with the snorkel. This may have resulted in poisonous gas, fire, diesel fumes, air pressure imbalances, water taken on etc., or a combination of several of the above. A well trained crew with good safety equipment could save the submarine. The crew, however, is not well trained and many things are not fully working. They get overwhelmed.
 
These vessels are intended to be invisible. They usually do have devices however that can be released to provide the subs locations. However, I believe that is something that the crew must initiate themselves, it doesn't happen automatically. Perhaps there simply wasn't time to do it, or it didn't work. It sounds like these Argentine subs were pretty short on maintenance, so probably a few things didn't work.

I agree. I think its likely the crew did not have time to do more which may have given their location.

I was thinking Submarines most likely carry one of these EPIRB devices that they can release out a tube of some sort and it would float to the surface to give their location to rescuers when they are truly in trouble.

"An Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacon or EPIRB is used to alert search and rescue services in the event of an emergency."

http://www.epirb.com/

I suspect things happened so fast they did not have much time to do anything. Poisonous gasses or water could flood the vessel very quickly if things went very wrong.
 
I certainly hope they can find the sub soon. I think there is zero chance anyone is alive, but it needs to be found. What happens then I guess depends upon how deep it is. I don't know whether Argentina has the ability to raise it or could afford to. Perhaps the German manufacturer could assist in some of those costs. There certainly is a need to understand what happened so it can be prevented from happening again. From what I have learned of the Argentine military in general and the submarine corp in particular, they need to seriously reinvest in training and maintenance for these remaining submarines, or else consider phasing them out entirely. There is no reason to needlessly risk the lives of other sailors like this.
 
From what I have learned of the Argentine military in general and the submarine corp in particular, they need to seriously reinvest in training and maintenance for these remaining submarines, or else consider phasing them out entirely. There is no reason to needlessly risk the lives of other sailors like this.

I agree completely. As the surviving submarine is also beyond its service life, I think it should be immediately decommissioned.

Though new submarines are expensive, the good news for potential buyers of top level diesel submarines is that there is a group of fiercely competing manufacturers.

France (as well as Spain as I think buyers can use in some instances either the Spanish yard or the French yard for the same submarine purchase) Germany, Russia and Sweden all manufacture diesel submarines. Maybe the competition will lower the cost, well somewhat.
 
A very sad outcome indeed, but thank you PrairieWind and Cryptic for your insights. Very interesting.
Submarines both amaze and terrify me.
 
Guess I'd like to see if they could at least recover the bodies for their loved ones !! :(
Some very small solace.
Whatever happened, hope it was very quick !!

Rest in peace to the 44... My utmost condolences to their families.
 
Russian oceanographic research ship arrives in San Juan submarine search zone

The vessel serves as a mother ship for advanced mini-subs, which can carry out research missions at great depths



http://tass.com/world/979269
 
British Prime Minister Theresa May expresses solidarity to Argentine president Mauricio Macri over the missing ARA San Juan submarine

The Argentine foreign ministry last week thanked UK for its cooperation in the SAR effort, as well as the Falkland Islands for their attitude in such highly sensitive moments for the Argentine people.

http://en.mercopress.com/2017/12/13...macri-over-the-missing-ara-san-juan-submarine
 
Argentinian submarine that sank, killing all 44 crew, 'had been chased by a British helicopter after travelling close to the Falkland Islands', claims dead sailor's sister

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5176095/Missing-submarine-chased-Royal-Navy-Helicopter.html

Jesica Medina, the sister of one of the 44 missing sailors, Roberto Daniel Medina, revealed that she had received a 'strange' message from her brother days before the vessel's last known communication.

In the Whatsapp message he told her that the ARA San Juan submarine had travelled close to the Falkland Islands, and claimed that a Royal Navy helicopter was trying to track them.

Second sub-officer Roberto told her they were now heading for home, writing: 'On Monday an English helicopter was looking for us, and yesterday the Chileans, there has been a lot going on.'
 
I don't know what to make of the alleged messages claiming they were being chased. If this occurred, they were much closer to the Falklands than the Argentinians have claimed. But if they were out there, it certainly would not be unusual for one navy to investigate a submarine of another navy. That is pretty standard. They probably weren't being chased so much as monitored. If one navy detects a submarine operating in its area, they are going to further investigate to determine who it is and what they are doing. IF it occurred. The idea that an officer on board a submarine would send messages to his family giving information about their operations and general location is stunning. That is the WORST operational security ever! But it could also be further evidence of the poor training of this crew.

The reports that objects have been detected on the ocean floor is interesting. I wonder how long it will take to investigate those? 1000 meters and 700 meters are pretty deep. I am guessing that is at or below crush depth for this old sub.
 
Argentine parliamentarians are reportedly investigating two German firms over the replacement of batteries on the missing submarine ARA San Juan, alleging bribes were paid to secure contracts and inferior products used.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ated-faulty-batteries-link-missing-argentine/

My guess is that the cause of the disaster is far closer to home than Germany.

The submarine's crew had not been on a patrol in years, the submarine was 35 years old and past its service life, and the recent refit was done on a shoe string budget (12 million dollars) given the complexity and exacting nature of the work needed.

Sadly, all of the above are ingredients for disaster.
 
I would have to agree Cryptic. While I suppose it is possible that there was a problem with the batteries, I doubt that is root of this disaster. As with almost all of these man-made catastrophes, there is usually a chain of events that goes wrong. The first indication of trouble was the message that water had entered through the snorkel causing a battery problem. So that doesn't sound like defective batteries so much as poor seamanship and/or poor maintenance of the snorkel assembly. Now, perhaps water entering should not have reached the batteries but it would be impossible to know if that was a result of faulty installation or faulty operation. But even a battery problem should not have been catastrophic for them, as indicated by the captains message that it was contained and they were returning. So something else then happened and the crew was unable to deal with it. Given as little experience as this crew had, and that it was newly refurbished, it should have been operating close to shore under controlled circumstances in a series of test dives to test the sub and get the crew some experience.
 

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