Laura Babcock Murder Trial - *GUILTY*

palisadesk said:

Hi Lady L, you inquired about what characteristics of FAS DM may exhibit. We`ve had discussions about this before - mostly a propos of the TB trial. Because of family history, it is possible that DM has damage due to prenatal exposure to alcohol or - as has recently been learned, the sperm of a man who drinks heavily can be damaged so that it produces FAS-like symptoms (and other neurological issues) in his child.

Leaving that aside, here are some characteristics of FAS and FAE individuals that DM shares to a greater or lesser degree:

- obviously better developed verbal ability than quantitative reasoning (mathematical) ability. We`ve often discussed how little grasp DM seemed to have about money or finance.

- markedly impaired `executive function`as the psychologists term it:
(1) the ability to organize self and environment, make and carry through sophisticated plans independently, using feedback to modify those plans and strategies; (2)ability to set reasonable goals, develop incremental steps towards achieving them, and (again) alter or revise those steps as needed based on observation and feedback from others and the environment; (3) self-regulation, especially of own behaviour and adapt it appropriately to a variety of interpersonal or social settings; (4) appreciation of the relationship between actions and consequences, so that actions yielding undesired consequences become inhibited as a result of experience; (5) ability to make thoughtful and reasonable decisions using prior experience, social mores and input from others rather than impulsivity or desire for personal gratification

- noticeably less appropriate moral, social and interpersonal development and behaviour than would be expected for the individual`s age and level of intellectual functioning (IQ)

- as adults, much greater tendency towards substance abuse, promiscuity, criminal behaviour (related to poor impulse control, lack of inhibition, lack of social awareness and understanding of the needs and rights of others,etc.)

There`s more, but we can see a lot of this in DM`s life, as we know it, which is in a rather limited way. But these tendencies (each of which can be attributed to other causes) taken together are something of a hmmmmmm moment.

There was a good series about FAS a few years back in the Ottawa Citizen called `When Mommy Drinks,` which was very informative; the need for public awareness remains very pressing. Not much in the way of effective treatment exists to date -- the alcohol crosses the blood-brain barrier, and eats away at the fetal brain like battery acid, destroying large chunks of the cerebrum, especially the frontal cortex where these `executive functions` reside.

I worked professionally with young offenders for a time and researched the literature and treatment options in some detail. Here`s a site with good information for the general reader, and a horrifying scan of a normal baby brain vs a FAS baby brain. You can see the missing and damaged areas of the cerebral cortex. This can never be repaired.

http://www.faslink.org/fasmain.htm

Note: I do not know that DM is so affected, but his history shows that he possesses a number of these traits. His responsibility for his behaviour, under the law, is not affected. FAS is neither a mental illness nor an excuse for criminality, but it is a predisposing condition.

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ABro said:

I do give people credit for changing their minds about Smich. It's not easy to admit you were fooled. And I think when people do change their mind it's a good thing. So kudos for that.

Way back when, I also wondered about Smich and found it hard to believe that a guy with two sisters Laura's age, who he seemed to care about, could kill a young woman.

I learned I was wrong.

I just wish that the people who have reconsidered Smich's role would revisit their feelings about Marlena as well. I'm not sure why there's this need for her to be a villain.

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mimimic said:

For me personally, I paint MS and DM with the same evil brush- so I am not sure how to make sense of these posts on this. For MM I guess I just have some doubts about her and before making my mind up, I would have had to been in court to get a better read off of her.
MM's Celebrating comments: she seemed to try to make sound like they were just happy they got the truck. Not that they were celebrating a murder. Do you feel that because she says she didn't know and was afraid for MS to go to do the TB theft that she could in know way have known about LB?

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Grey-St said:

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. I so vividly remember the moment I first felt like a fool re. MS.

In the TB trial, when he testified, he described how he was coerced and intimidated by DM, even stated that he "didn't want to go near that thing" (the incinerator). I found it compelling. I work with folks who are coerced, manipulated, intimidated into doing horrific things. I know how it works.

In the LB trial, when I read about the rap song, listened to the lyrics, read testimony about how he gloated about the murder, read texts about how he wanted to test the thing with bones, THEN saw the picture of him standing proudly beside that same incinerator he wanted "nothing to do with" one year later, I SAW RED.

Nobody likes to feel like a fool. I remember thinking "thank god the jury got it right in trial 1".

As for MM, she's far from perfect. Absolutely no one in the peripheral of these two were. So what if she wanted to marry MS. It's nuts the things you'll do and say and are blinded by when you're wrapped around the finger of a bad guy. I've certainly been there. But she assisted in seeing justice served. I thank her for that. I hope today she's found her worth, such so that she can be in a relationship grounded in security and mutual respect, and resist the unhealthy, co-dependant cycle that so many young women find themselves trapped in.

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ABro said:

No, she said they told her they wanted to celebrate when they picked her up the morning after the murder. This was very clear. It's why the Crown replayed her testimony during Smich's cross and their closing arguments. This is a fact.

She was questioned during cross examination as to why she had never told police before her pre-trial interview with the Crown that Millard and Smich said they wanted to celebrate.

She testified that she had always told police they were happy that morning. Neither Dungey nor Sachak shook her in cross examination.

No, there is no evidence she knew about either murder in advance. None. Nada. Zip.

She asked Smich not to go steal a truck. She was worried partly because he was sick. But on the night of the theft she just went to her sister's place and hung out. The idea she was begging him not to go is inaccurate.

She never met LB. At one point she told police that she freaked out when the news of LB's murder broke. Probably because she was a young woman Laura;s age and she couldn't believe Smich would know about such a thing.

The fantastical stories that have surfaced here about Marlena wearing LB's clothes and jewelry are not fact based. They are mere speculation.

Again, I find the need to vilify Marlena strange and, as I have noted, it is often strongest in people who constantly make excuses for Smich.

I would really like to understand where your distrust of MM comes from. What is it about her that makes it hard for you to accept her testimony?

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winter2017 said:

If she does not find the right way then she will likely repeat the past. I am very skeptical about her to be so involved with someone as disturbed as MS.
She was in some videos and looked like enjoying being in them and one is with MS doing the rap about Laura s murder. I would have to hear someone with the crown and what they think about her being in that video and also looking very happy etc.
IF DM and MS did not get caught I am not sure she would not have helped in another murder. DM took her across the border with him and what was the reason? to get drugs.?
She can actually be thankful that DM and MS got caught because if it had continued longer it is very possible she would have been involved in a murder and then she would be spending her life in prison. like MS will be.

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palisadesk said:

In point of fact, one group of people do very well in prison -- better than they do outside - those with FAS (fetal alcohol syndrome) or its partner, FAE (fetal alcohol effects - a distinction without a significant difference). Nearly 40% of long-term inmates in Canadian prisoners are believed to be in this group according to some research, and because FAS people have great difficulty with cause and effect, anticipating consequences, can`t learn from experience and have very poor social understanding, the structure of prison benefits them greatly and they often become `model prisoners.``

DM certainly has many characteristics of someone with FAS, whether or not a clinical diagnosis was ever made. He will probably do quite will in the pen - it`s full of people like him, some of whom will fall under his spell and give him a chance to revel in being Dellen the Felon again. Most murderers are assigned to the general population, and many have killed partners or spouses, so that in itself is unlikely to threaten his well-being the way being a child-killer or child-rapist would do.

On another topic, I can`t find musicaljoke`s post about the judge possibly giving MS a concurrent sentence because he believes in MS innocence (sorry if I`m not quoting it quite right musicaljoke) but I don`t think we have any reason to think Justice Code believed MS to be innocent, only that he differentiated between DM and MS in the nature of the evidence and the volume of same concerning them. I would not be surprised if MS did receive a concurrent sentence, based on that difference, the fact he has some factors in his favour, as demonstrated by his using incarceration to improve his education and skills, and that he has support of his family (or some of it - no word on his mostly absent dad). Should he learn a trade and fulfill other conditions, he might meet parole eligibility criteria, but that would still entail a graduated program and very strict supervision which would never completely stop. Community safety is always the top priority of the parole board (or is supposed to be); victims`families have input but don`t make the final decision.

By and large, parole boards, like juries, do a good job and I`m not worried they would release DM under any circumstances, or MS without stringent oversight and compelling evidence of his growth and development in a positive direction.

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ABro said:

Be careful of the story about how the Smich family was deserted by the father. It was spun, after all, by the same guy who lied through his teeth on the witness stand. I can assure you it's not that simple at all.

Smich is every bit a psychopath. And I'm far from convinced he has the potential to be rehabilitated.

Please tell me you weren't one of the chorus of people chiming in about how bad Marlena Meneses was if you're now claiming Smich has the potential to be rehabilitated when he has -- in contrast to Meneses -- never shown an ounce of remorse.

I'm gobsmacked by how significant people find that high school diploma. What else is he going to do in custody? They don't allow video games.

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Grey-St said:

Winter, there is absolute nothing to suggest that MM was complicit in any murder, or would be in the future.

I truly do not comprehend how you are now a MS sympathizer, yet you consistently vilify MM.

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Grey-St said:

Winter, there is absolute nothing to suggest that MM was complicit in any murder, or would be in the future.

I truly do not comprehend how you are now a MS sympathizer, yet you consistently vilify MM.

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ABro said:

No, she said they told her they wanted to celebrate when they picked her up the morning after the murder. This was very clear. It's why the Crown replayed her testimony during Smich's cross and their closing arguments. This is a fact.

She was questioned during cross examination as to why she had never told police before her pre-trial interview with the Crown that Millard and Smich said they wanted to celebrate.

She testified that she had always told police they were happy that morning. Neither Dungey nor Sachak shook her in cross examination.

No, there is no evidence she knew about either murder in advance. None. Nada. Zip.

She asked Smich not to go steal a truck. She was worried partly because he was sick. But on the night of the theft she just went to her sister's place and hung out. The idea she was begging him not to go is inaccurate.

She never met LB. At one point she told police that she freaked out when the news of LB's murder broke. Probably because she was a young woman Laura;s age and she couldn't believe Smich would know about such a thing.

The fantastical stories that have surfaced here about Marlena wearing LB's clothes and jewelry are not fact based. They are mere speculation.

Again, I find the need to vilify Marlena strange and, as I have noted, it is often strongest in people who constantly make excuses for Smich.

I would really like to understand where your distrust of MM comes from. What is it about her that makes it hard for you to accept her testimony?

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winter2017 said:

YOu are calling me a MS sympathizer because I said I think I would not disagree with the judge giving him a concurrent sentence and that I believe he had serious addiction issues. I am not a trained person in human behavior, I am only giving my opinion.
I am giving my opinion like a lot of others and it is just that an opinion.

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mimimic said:

I will put some more thought into it than right now, but for starters, I know everyone says this house is huge, I don't think the house would be too big to keep her from finding out what they might be up to I just can't believe MS could have gotten away from her for long IF she stayed there that night, If I am to believe MS was involved than I just plain think she was there as well and was involved somewhat or she went out. I don't think it has been proven that SHE was there that WHOLE night- maybe a friend picked her up at some point...

I was the poster mentioning the two bras she had on in a few photos. I would think she would want to know the story on who's stuff that was and how they got it before wearing it. I suppose DM could have just said he stole a suitcase along somewhere. We didn't hear that part. So much is missing. I would so much desire to directly speak to them myself if they actually wanted to convince me of their innocence. But that is not how court works, I guess because of that I would vote slightly more on their guilty involvement just by association to evidence recovered.

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ABro said:

They might have been her bras. What possible basis do you have to assume they're Laura's? Marlena could have bought all that stuff at Sears two years earlier. You've made up a theory that these things came from Laura despite the fact that there's nothing to support your speculation. Neither Laura's friends nor family recognized those clothes as belonging to her so how can you?Why the need to believe this ugly theory that MM looted a dead girl's belongings? What is driving it? Because there's certainly no evidence.

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ABro said:

They might have been her bras. What possible basis do you have to assume they're Laura's? Marlena could have bought all that stuff at Sears two years earlier. You've made up a theory that these things came from Laura despite the fact that there's nothing to support your speculation. Neither Laura's friends nor family recognized those clothes as belonging to her so how can you?

Why the need to believe this ugly theory that MM looted a dead girl's belongings? What is driving it? Because there's certainly no evidence.

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ABro said:

They might have been her bras. What possible basis do you have to assume they're Laura's? Marlena could have bought all that stuff at Sears two years earlier. You've made up a theory that these things came from Laura despite the fact that there's nothing to support your speculation. Neither Laura's friends nor family recognized those clothes as belonging to her so how can you?
Why the need to believe this ugly theory that MM looted a dead girl's belongings? What is driving it? Because there's certainly no evidence.

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mimimic said:

It's the fact that she has on two 2 bras at the same time - one over the other. I believe two different colors over top of the one that she kept on. either it was green or yellow - the others two were just tried on over top. This was not my idea - but the Crown speculated this in their closing as having kept LB's possessions. (My parents and friends have never seen my underwear.)

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mimimic said:

It's the fact that she has on two 2 bras at the same time - one over the other. I believe two different colors over top of the one that she kept on. either it was green or yellow - the others two were just tried on over top. This was not my idea - but the Crown speculated this in their closing as having kept LB's possessions. (My parents and friends have never seen my underwear.)

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ABro said:

I never heard the Crown say anything about Marlena keeping Laura's possessions. Cameron said Smich and Millard kept them. I can't even begin to imagine why are you lumping Marlena, who is innocent, in with two murderers? I just don't get this at all.

And so what if she's wearing two bras (although I'm far from convinced she is). That's a fashion thing.

I've read your comments throughout this trial and they seem mostly reasonable which is why I find this hatred of Marlena -- to the point that you accuse her of being a looter based on nothing -- so jarring. I challenge you to find one bit of evidence or one quote from an accredited news source to support this ugliness and these baseless accusations against a 23-year-old woman.

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winter2017 said:

I missed that completely. Was it brought up in court? I have never seen any pictures of her with two bras on. That is weird and I definitely would think something was up with that.
There are too many questionable things surrounding MM IMO. The thing is that she did not get charged with anything so is free to go and live her life and I hope stays out of trouble.

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