ABro
Verified Expert
The mob reporter has dozens of videos. If you're going to accuse Marlena of looting Laura's possessions you should be prepared to back it up.
Laura Babcock Murder Trial - *GUILTY*
- Thread starter Sillybilly
- Start date
The mob reporter has dozens of videos. If you're going to accuse Marlena of looting Laura's possessions you should be prepared to back it up.
mob reporter Posted November 17 WHAT THE JURY SAW: ipad use after July3 start of video has MS in smoking in pool.
MM is in pic taken July 5th 5:23pm -
Not an actual accusation, more a nagging thought on her possible access.
MrsThreadgoode
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During both the Tim Bosma trial and the Laura Babcock trial, I witnessed a great deal of comments from WSers on the boards who appear to have sympathy for MS, even though those same posters usually say but I believe he is guilt.
I have a difficult time wrapping my head around the fact that so many people have sympathy for him, and I am curious as to their reasoning.
Yes, DM is a manipulator, but do MS sympathizers honestly believe that DM had MS constantly under his thumb? That he could totally control MS?
MS is his own person, quite capable of making right and wrong decisions all on his own. DM couldnt have forced MS to do things that MSs own personal morals would not allow him to do.
MS is equally responsible for the atrocies committed by both of them together.
And it quite apparent to me that they both thoroughly enjoyed performing their gruesome deeds.
He is no less guilty than DM is. They are both evil, vile psychopaths IMO. Equally the same. MS does not deserve one iota of sympathy imo.
Where does all this sympathy for MS come from? Is it because he got GED in prison? Do you consider that to be a small measure of reform? Yes, it is good that he did it, but what else is there to do. It kept him busy. It certainly hasnt caused him to reform his ways, though. For gosh sake, he just wanted to have the easiest possible life ... coast along ... never attempting to get a real job.
I have heard from prison sources that he stills plays the grand gangster wannabe in prison. That says a lot, I think, in the respect that he is continuing along the same path because he enjoys it so much. He certainly doesnt see any need for drastic change. He is happy being the same old MS.
MOO
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I have a difficult time wrapping my head around the fact that so many people have sympathy for him, and I am curious as to their reasoning.
Yes, DM is a manipulator, but do MS sympathizers honestly believe that DM had MS constantly under his thumb? That he could totally control MS?
MS is his own person, quite capable of making right and wrong decisions all on his own. DM couldnt have forced MS to do things that MSs own personal morals would not allow him to do.
MS is equally responsible for the atrocies committed by both of them together.
And it quite apparent to me that they both thoroughly enjoyed performing their gruesome deeds.
He is no less guilty than DM is. They are both evil, vile psychopaths IMO. Equally the same. MS does not deserve one iota of sympathy imo.
Where does all this sympathy for MS come from? Is it because he got GED in prison? Do you consider that to be a small measure of reform? Yes, it is good that he did it, but what else is there to do. It kept him busy. It certainly hasnt caused him to reform his ways, though. For gosh sake, he just wanted to have the easiest possible life ... coast along ... never attempting to get a real job.
I have heard from prison sources that he stills plays the grand gangster wannabe in prison. That says a lot, I think, in the respect that he is continuing along the same path because he enjoys it so much. He certainly doesnt see any need for drastic change. He is happy being the same old MS.
MOO
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ABro
Verified Expert
I think this is not unique to this case. I have noticed that in murder cases with two killers, there is a very strong need for some people to characterize one killer as not as bad or not as guilty.
The classic example would be Homolka and Bernardo. Until the video tapes emerged, Homolka was going to be slotted into the dupe/follower role.
I also think Smich's case was helped by Tom Dungey, who is a very likable lawyer and took on the role of righteous avenger at the Bosma trial.
Unfortunately for Dungey, however, he was unable to do this at the Babcock trial as there was just too much evidence against his client. All he could do was claim that it was a deer in the incinerator and hope that many people's natural aversion to accepting the existence of evil would cause at least one jury member to have reasonable doubt.
Interesting about Smich in prison. I can see him having a group of followers just as he tried to cultivate in real life.
Great post. Thank you. Both defendants took full advantage of what the jury wasnt told and in so doing, have clearly shown themselves to be liars and perjurers. One would hope that their many contradictory statements and outright lies will doom any effort at an appeal.
Was DM to appear in court again this week on the WM murder charge?
ABro, have you ever spoken with MM in person? Why do you believe she's so innocent? I think it is probable that she was in fact wearing LB's clothes. From what we know about her this doesn't seem to be a stretch. Furthermore, she never went to the police, the police had to press her before they got information from her. I'm not saying she's as bad as MS and DM. I just don't feel she deserves a pass.
BBM
December 22nd
Millard has hearing for Wayne Millard death Dec. 22. After that wants to go back to penitentiary.
https://twitter.com/AnnB03/status/942077893353574400
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Inspector_North
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Just a couple of points from my perspective; that of a neophyte following this case.
Why folks like AM, SS, and possibly MH were not charged with theft over $5,000? Does this mean someone caught stealing a Bobcat, or assisting in stealing a Bobcat should expect the same? Or did they get a pass because they were so cooperative with LE? I just don't understand this leniency when it's part of a larger more serious crime, and I don't see willing cooperation. AM was initially charged IIRC, and he was not a willing witness initially.
Who do you think MS was referring to when he texted DM the following?
BBM
Oct 13 5:17 pm Smich texts Millard: "You still gotta keep everything on the low. Cuz ppl kno too much."
Oct 13 5:18 pm Smich texts Millard: "We r not getting anything anymore when there's ppl around. Unless it's just for pick up."
Oct 13 5:19 pm Smich texts Millard: "Everything else has got to stay low. Time to go have one of our chats soon at the titty bar."
Was he referring to "theft" missions that did not involve violence? Because it sure seemed like AM, MH, and the other lookouts were okay with these type of missions. Especially if DM offered them a crumb payment for their service.
Just days earlier, it seemed like MS was hinting at violent crimes on the horizon. And if the above "Cuz ppl kno too much" is a reference to the more serious violent missions, who are these folks who know too much about them?
Oct 8 - Smich texts Millard: "Yeaow. 3500 Mi negro. Lol."
Oct 8 - Millard texts Smich: "Lol
"Oct 8 - Smich texts Millard the following rap verse:
"It's all about me, you, myself, and my greed,
Get TXDeed,
We be takin anything that we need,
That means everything, indeed."
I'm definitely not a MS sympathizer, but I have some serious concerns about AM's knowledge of the violent crimes, specifically TB's. My criticism of AM, and SS is not for the purpose of redirecting any responsibility away from MS.
MOO
I don't think girls are too thrilled at getting second hand clothing from their boyfriends. The thought of receiving second hand underwear is even more gross.
winter2017
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I could not agree with you more. she absolutely never went to the police with any of the information, and she was glued to MS and so to try to act like she knew nothing, I am not buying it. She was not charged with anything so she is lucky and maybe after she sees what happened to MS it will put enough of a scare into her that she will not continue on with her drug involvement and hanging around with pretty shady characters. It is her choice and if she still keeps bad connections I predict not a good future for her. Lots of drugs in Oakville but it depends on who you associate with.
I’m not sure how the contention that Smich is criminal but not psychopathic has been warped into the idea that he is “an innocent dupe” or special target for sympathy. Pointing out that these two different criminals are - wait for it - different criminals, is pretty self evident IMO.
It is an extremely common dynamic for criminal pairs to be made up of a psychopathic and a non-psychopathic person. Bernardo (scored 35 on the PCL-R with 30 required for diagnoses) and Homolka (scored 5, twice, 10 years apart via different assesors - a normal score) for example. Or Eric Harris (diagnosed as a psychopath) and Dylan Klebold (diagnosed differently).
This makes sense on statistics alone as psychopathy occurs at an extremely low rate of 1-3 % of the population. If you’re seeing psychopaths crawling out of the woodwork in this case from two relatively small overlapping friend groups in suburban Toronto, you might need to reassess. The reality is that when psychopaths do team up it’s usually because they meet in prison where the population of psychopaths is much higher statistically. Think Norris/Bittaker or Lucas/Toole.
What typically happens outside of prison is exactly what we see happened in this case – a psychopathic person co-opts people from the other 97-99% of the world to his or her needs and desires through efficient targeting of moral and psychological weakness and ruthless manipulation. Women like Homolka and the two teenaged accomplices in the case Inspector North mentioned yesterday don’t start out with an independent and burning desire to facilitate the rape of children for their boyfriends. They’re moved there in degrees. It’s Millard here who ends up with trucks, Bobcats, cement polishers, a murdered ex lover, being the master of “loot” distribution, on and on – and Smich who is at times literally begging for change for food(!) as he patiently waits for his music studio and rap album and to “take this world” with Dellen Millard.
Honestly, you couldn’t have the contrast between psychopathy and non-psychopathy more gift wrapped and tied up with a bow that we have with the ability to observe and contrast these two defendants.
In contrast to Millard, Smich has a normal emotional baseline - he gets emotional talking about family and friends, according to Adam Carter he got emotional and searching looking at MM in the first trial, he has exhibited situationally appropriate fear and nervousness at various points, and the presence of his family in court demonstrates a typical familial bond. DM? An uncle angry at him to the point of irrationality, no family in court, and not a single shred of evidence of a real bond with anyone.
On impulsivity and judgement: Smich has a clear ability to control himself in court and take legal advice, sitting stone still much of time, even through DM’s constant staring and goading in the first trial. DM meanwhile is waving at witnesses, spinning around to look at the gallery, making various obvious noises and faces and presumably ignoring all legal advice in choosing to represent himself in a murder trial. He is utterly clueless about what he has done when he blames Laura’s parents in his closing. Clueless.
On lying and manipulation: a lot of criminals lie in an attempt to avoid prison, both on and off the stand. That’s what Smich did, and it’s pretty standard stuff. With DM it’s a whole other level of treating people in his entire life like chess pieces. Running them up to their faces and down to others to achieve emotional and psychological power over whoever was in front of him at the moment. The extreme manipulation on multiple fronts observable in his letters to Christina. Smich gave an utterly normal interview to a reporter (where he again welled up speaking about family and friends) while DM was busy taking about the moon, philosophy and the “preciousness” of a visit from media. Ugh level grandiosity and manipulation. Having done a ton of reading about the disorder over the years, it’s that early interview that had me say to myself for the first time in this case “this guy is a psychopath”.
In their lives before arrest Smich was a boilerplate dropout, lazy, sleep until 3 pm, drug slinging, graffiti scribbling, **** and rapper wannabe. DM on the other hand had a classic psychopath profile of multiple things started and not finished, being kicked out of school for cheating, proneness to boredom and constant need for stimulation – often high risk, impulsive and careless behaviour that saw enormous amounts of money disappear - the Baha Jeep, the excavator in a swamp.
It’s all THIS stuff that is the bones of psychopathy, not just the ruthless criminal behaviour shared by both defendants.
And finally, have you noticed how many people have talked about Millard’s eyes or gaze? That is psychopathy 101. A fixed, cold or predatory stare is a favourite tool and unwitting giveaway. It was noted in AC’s excellent ‘Wayward Son’ article, and recently noted here in an anecdote from a guard who talked about the disturbing nature of Millard’s eye contact. We know that not once, but twice, he stared down victims in this case after verdicts were delivered. And Millard himself talked about using his stare in a perceived power struggle with a prison worker in the letters. If anybody is talking about the “Smich stare” I’ve certainly missed it.
I could probably go on for another 8 paragraphs – the difference between these two is that obvious and well evidenced to me – but this is already too long. The PCL-R is scored out of 40 and there is a lot of real estate between a normal score in the low single digits and 30 where psychopathy is diagnosed. Smich no doubt would have a score more elevated than most of us, but it’s not a matter of both of these men being psychopathic with Millard perhaps being a bit more psychopathic. Psychopathy is by definition an extreme personality structure, and a rare one. If you are a psychopath your behaviour is shocking, foreign, strange and unnerving. Dellen Millard is shocking, foreign, strange and unnerving. Mark Smich participated in horrible, ruthless crimes. There is a difference.
It is an extremely common dynamic for criminal pairs to be made up of a psychopathic and a non-psychopathic person. Bernardo (scored 35 on the PCL-R with 30 required for diagnoses) and Homolka (scored 5, twice, 10 years apart via different assesors - a normal score) for example. Or Eric Harris (diagnosed as a psychopath) and Dylan Klebold (diagnosed differently).
This makes sense on statistics alone as psychopathy occurs at an extremely low rate of 1-3 % of the population. If you’re seeing psychopaths crawling out of the woodwork in this case from two relatively small overlapping friend groups in suburban Toronto, you might need to reassess. The reality is that when psychopaths do team up it’s usually because they meet in prison where the population of psychopaths is much higher statistically. Think Norris/Bittaker or Lucas/Toole.
What typically happens outside of prison is exactly what we see happened in this case – a psychopathic person co-opts people from the other 97-99% of the world to his or her needs and desires through efficient targeting of moral and psychological weakness and ruthless manipulation. Women like Homolka and the two teenaged accomplices in the case Inspector North mentioned yesterday don’t start out with an independent and burning desire to facilitate the rape of children for their boyfriends. They’re moved there in degrees. It’s Millard here who ends up with trucks, Bobcats, cement polishers, a murdered ex lover, being the master of “loot” distribution, on and on – and Smich who is at times literally begging for change for food(!) as he patiently waits for his music studio and rap album and to “take this world” with Dellen Millard.
Honestly, you couldn’t have the contrast between psychopathy and non-psychopathy more gift wrapped and tied up with a bow that we have with the ability to observe and contrast these two defendants.
In contrast to Millard, Smich has a normal emotional baseline - he gets emotional talking about family and friends, according to Adam Carter he got emotional and searching looking at MM in the first trial, he has exhibited situationally appropriate fear and nervousness at various points, and the presence of his family in court demonstrates a typical familial bond. DM? An uncle angry at him to the point of irrationality, no family in court, and not a single shred of evidence of a real bond with anyone.
On impulsivity and judgement: Smich has a clear ability to control himself in court and take legal advice, sitting stone still much of time, even through DM’s constant staring and goading in the first trial. DM meanwhile is waving at witnesses, spinning around to look at the gallery, making various obvious noises and faces and presumably ignoring all legal advice in choosing to represent himself in a murder trial. He is utterly clueless about what he has done when he blames Laura’s parents in his closing. Clueless.
On lying and manipulation: a lot of criminals lie in an attempt to avoid prison, both on and off the stand. That’s what Smich did, and it’s pretty standard stuff. With DM it’s a whole other level of treating people in his entire life like chess pieces. Running them up to their faces and down to others to achieve emotional and psychological power over whoever was in front of him at the moment. The extreme manipulation on multiple fronts observable in his letters to Christina. Smich gave an utterly normal interview to a reporter (where he again welled up speaking about family and friends) while DM was busy taking about the moon, philosophy and the “preciousness” of a visit from media. Ugh level grandiosity and manipulation. Having done a ton of reading about the disorder over the years, it’s that early interview that had me say to myself for the first time in this case “this guy is a psychopath”.
In their lives before arrest Smich was a boilerplate dropout, lazy, sleep until 3 pm, drug slinging, graffiti scribbling, **** and rapper wannabe. DM on the other hand had a classic psychopath profile of multiple things started and not finished, being kicked out of school for cheating, proneness to boredom and constant need for stimulation – often high risk, impulsive and careless behaviour that saw enormous amounts of money disappear - the Baha Jeep, the excavator in a swamp.
It’s all THIS stuff that is the bones of psychopathy, not just the ruthless criminal behaviour shared by both defendants.
And finally, have you noticed how many people have talked about Millard’s eyes or gaze? That is psychopathy 101. A fixed, cold or predatory stare is a favourite tool and unwitting giveaway. It was noted in AC’s excellent ‘Wayward Son’ article, and recently noted here in an anecdote from a guard who talked about the disturbing nature of Millard’s eye contact. We know that not once, but twice, he stared down victims in this case after verdicts were delivered. And Millard himself talked about using his stare in a perceived power struggle with a prison worker in the letters. If anybody is talking about the “Smich stare” I’ve certainly missed it.
I could probably go on for another 8 paragraphs – the difference between these two is that obvious and well evidenced to me – but this is already too long. The PCL-R is scored out of 40 and there is a lot of real estate between a normal score in the low single digits and 30 where psychopathy is diagnosed. Smich no doubt would have a score more elevated than most of us, but it’s not a matter of both of these men being psychopathic with Millard perhaps being a bit more psychopathic. Psychopathy is by definition an extreme personality structure, and a rare one. If you are a psychopath your behaviour is shocking, foreign, strange and unnerving. Dellen Millard is shocking, foreign, strange and unnerving. Mark Smich participated in horrible, ruthless crimes. There is a difference.
winter2017
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Not everyone would take an Ipad that belonged to a murdered person also and all of Laura s stuff had to be on the Ipad. Also the red bag that DM tried to say could have been given to MS at any time, I doubt that. why would Laura when alive want MS to have her bag? MS had no problem taking those belongings knowing he helped kill her, and so I see that he and DM would have no problem taking the rest of her belongings and giving them to MM.
MM was living off of DM for food, a place to stay and I am sure she would not be against taking free clothes i f it suited her.
MS and MM both were living off of DM and they did not seem to have a problem with it.
I try to stay neutral on each piece of evidence and judge them separately before including it. For eg. MM in the video during MS rap when she is rolling that joint, sure she looks happy, but I think she is just happy that DM included her in a video, she seems oblivious to MS song.
I doubt she wore bottom undergarments yes(gross), but $50 dollar bra. sure
Maybe she should get a pass much like SS and AM like Inspector Norths post above.
I have a headache today because I stayed up too late! I can't seem to stay away totally from this I wish to convey my thoughts properly.
Jill C's closing 3rd last paragraph is MS and DM keeping possessions like a trophy -I suppose MM might not have known where they came from and it was just the guys. I am not convinced either way on her.
I am not making her out to be a villain. Although I believe someone could spin quite a convincing tale to get out of trouble.
I doubt she wore bottom undergarments yes(gross), but $50 dollar bra. sure
Maybe she should get a pass much like SS and AM like Inspector Norths post above.
I have a headache today because I stayed up too late! I can't seem to stay away totally from this I wish to convey my thoughts properly.
Jill C's closing 3rd last paragraph is MS and DM keeping possessions like a trophy -I suppose MM might not have known where they came from and it was just the guys. I am not convinced either way on her.
I am not making her out to be a villain. Although I believe someone could spin quite a convincing tale to get out of trouble.
FastLikeLight
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Any date for sentencing?
I have seen two different dates for pretrial hearings for DM - Wednesday and Friday (Dec 22). Thus, when would be a meeting to set the date for this sentencing?
I have seen two different dates for pretrial hearings for DM - Wednesday and Friday (Dec 22). Thus, when would be a meeting to set the date for this sentencing?
Jasper52
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IIRC, it was said sentencing would be early in 2018 - no definitive date was given.
winter2017
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I could be wrong but I thought the sentencing would be in January.
Then there is another trial for the father. DM wanted to get back to the pen, I guess to see all his prison buddies. He has been locked up in a jail cell for the trial of Laura. If he is at Millhaven so is Bernardo and a few other notorious killers.
FastLikeLight
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As I understood all parties would have set the day over this week.
And if so, why should he have that option???