Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #1

AzPistonsGirl · Dec 21, 2017

andreww said:
No, Honey was killed in a different area of the house.

has that been proved? Not being snarky, just not able to keep up.

Jealoushe · Dec 21, 2017

clearskies1 said:
Some of the speculation in this thread has gone so far afield from reality. Disconcerting.

The same thing can be said for people who believe something like that can never happen.

Jennifer17 · Dec 21, 2017

Summerfun said:
Regarding the bodies being taken out of the house. One was draped in red, which I would assume to be Honey's and the other one was draped in grey, which would be Barry's.

The grey draped one showed the rigor mortis.

Does that mean that Barry was killed first?

Why would you assume that?

Lilibet · Dec 21, 2017

jillycat said:
I would still think he would know that the difference between his self-hanging vs her staged one would be apparent to a coroner.

But I have no idea. The only thing I personally think is not realistically on the table is a double suicide.

I agree that he would know that the coroner could see the difference. But my scenario depends on his knowing that his kids would not buy what the coroner said. So, in his kids’ eyes, he would not be a murderer.

But I just threw that out here because I hadn’t seen that theory mentioned. I’m on the fence except I don’t think it was double suicide either.

otto · Dec 21, 2017

JDG said:
Those floor plans are not to scale (no proper measurements) and they have stamped on them that they are for illustrative purposes only.

That makes it very hard to judge exactly where the 'lift' and the 'spiral staircase' are exactly.

When I looked at them last night, the spiral staircase seems to be different distances from the other staircase, depending on which floor you are looking at.

Measurements aren't really needed to align the floorpan foot prints. It is easy to see the "lift" on all three floors and it doesn't really have any association with stairs. It is in the kitchen, the pool area, and the master bedroom dressing room - which suggests to me that it is for food rather than people.

Lilibet · Dec 21, 2017

AzPistonsGirl said:
has that been proved? Not being snarky, just not able to keep up.

This was reported early on. I’m not sure if it was a direct LE quote or a “source.” But they haven’t denied it. We only know about the jackets and belts from a “source” so we go with whatever we can, I guess.

otto · Dec 21, 2017

Jasper52 said:
This must have been different footage as I saw the other body earlier. The footage shown this morning clearly showed a very bent body.

That's interesting. If one body was in rigor and the other wasn't, that's how they would know that the wife was killed first and the husband died several hours later. That would also point to murder suicide.

AzPistonsGirl · Dec 21, 2017

Lilibet said:
This was reported early on. I’m not sure if it was a direct LE quote or a “source.” But they haven’t denied it. We only know about the jackets and belts from a “source” so we go with whatever we can, I guess.

If it's not been proven, it should stop being posted as fact here.

Satchie · Dec 21, 2017

Tortoise said:
Is that specific to Canada? Because they sure can in the UK and I am aware they can in France too.

Sorry, I meant in the context of the Thelma Krull missing persons case, they did not declare a homicide.

My point was, I don't think this is comparable to a missing persons case. They have the deceased and the crime scene.

Someone referred to the Toronto police misjudging Wayne Millards murder as suicide. I'll be interested to see, in the upcoming trial, whether WM's friends and family disputed the likelihood of suicide, or went along with it. I can see how, if WM's ex-wife and any other family assumed it was suicide, they would have been possibly quite defensive if police had suggested the son and heir Dellen Millard may have done it, and insisted on investigating it as homicide.

andreww · Dec 21, 2017

That's interesting. If one body was in rigor and the other wasn't, that's how they would know that the wife was killed first and the husband died several hours later. That would also point to murder suicide.

Certainly would.

Tillicum · Dec 21, 2017

As was noted, bringing the stretchers out the front door in public view with the added difficulty of maneuvering the stairway seemed illogical when they could've gone through the garage, an easier and shorter route with less possibility of the public seeing. If we believe (as has been stated) that Honey was murdered earlier in another area of the house, to me it seems likely the second crime scene was in the garage area and they had to be careful not to disturb it. This would also explain how the staff wasn't aware of the deaths since it was said they didn't go into the basement. All JMO.

Doghairrules · Dec 21, 2017

AzPistonsGirl said:
If it's not been proven, it should stop being posted as fact here.

I thought we could discuss things reported in mainstream media though, and this is one of those things. Presumably the newspaper vets its sources.

Satchie · Dec 21, 2017

AzPistonsGirl said:
If it's not been proven, it should stop being posted as fact here.

The only certain fact is the cause of death was ligature neck compression, which is consistent with rumors of hanging.

I think the other rumors can be discussed, but I think they do need to be regularly identified as rumors, or alleged facts, during the discussion, by going back to the original. For example, the rumor that Honey' body may have been moved doesn't allege it was moved far, or from another floor, etc.

Satchie · Dec 21, 2017

Kaley Smith said:
"We're not looking for suspects" is sometimes used to give the perps a false sense of security and let their guard down?

The form of death makes me think this was personal.

My perception is the police will often say "the public is in no danger", if they have a strong belief a murder was targetted for personal reasons.

It occurs to me, if the police are looking at double murder, they have to look first at whomever will benefit from the will. This may explain why the police are not sharing a lot with the children.

otto · Dec 21, 2017

MFH said:
Is it odd that they took the bodies out the front door instead of the basement? Seems like it would be more difficult to roll the gurney up the spiral staircase than it would be to roll out of the garage directly to the coroners vehicle. Maybe its nothing, just got me thinking.

I wonder if that was done to avoid cameras - more discreet to take them out the front door and to the coroner's vehicle near the front door.

Hazel · Dec 21, 2017

otto said:
Here is the main floor
and lower floor
side by side.
I see "lift"in the kitchen, but that looks too small for people - looks more like a dumbwaiter that ends up in the master bedroom dressing room.

(respectfully bolded by me)

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, it looks like the underground parking + indoor lap pool are located underneath the tennis court in the backyard.

The indoor pools being at the far back, would have made it virtually impossible for any neighbours to be able to hear anything.

Floor Plans: http://media.houssmax.ca/201711/29/5a1f32afd3797.pdf

Satchie · Dec 21, 2017

Tillicum said:
As was noted, bringing the stretchers out the front door in public view with the added difficulty of maneuvering the stairway seemed illogical when they could've gone through the garage, an easier and shorter route with less possibility of the public seeing. If we believe (as has been stated) that Honey was murdered earlier in another area of the house, to me it seems likely the second crime scene was in the garage area and they had to be careful not to disturb it. This would also explain how the staff wasn't aware of the deaths since it was said they didn't go into the basement. All JMO.

Possibly they hadn't yet done forensics on the garage, so needed to keep it pristine in case it had evidence. Whereas there'd already been numerous police coming in and out the front door, and the forensics was already done along that route.

Jasper52 · Dec 21, 2017

otto said:
That's interesting. If one body was in rigor and the other wasn't, that's how they would know that the wife was killed first and the husband died several hours later. That would also point to murder suicide.

Not necessarily. Somebody could have kept Barry alive to try and extort something from him. JMO

AlwaysShocked · Dec 21, 2017

Unless and until there is a trial, most of what we speculate about here at WS has not been "proven'!

There are other signs that show up on autopsy that would tell a medical examiner whether or not a person died from hanging or not. Things like pattern of bruising, abrasion marks and their location, internal muscle, blood vessel and cartilage damage, etc.

One victim still being in rigor mortis and the other no longer being in rigor mortis could possibly indicate a difference in time of death. But when looking at tables showing the onset of rigor mortis and how long it can be expected to last, there are always ranges of time given. Because bodies are different.

The website that was linked is forensicpathologyonline.com

human · Dec 21, 2017

The idea that something happened in the garage is intriguing,

I wonder if they were out somewhere.

May explain the jackets but of course there are other kinds of jackets than outdoor jackets.

Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #1

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