Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #8

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Hope4More said:
Hi sister Geevee..:)

What the Bar said, obliquely, was that JM exposed himself to some of the(baseless) charges of impropriety by the by giving excess to his office, after hours, to two members of the "media," both of whom Clark alleged he had sex with (denied by both women).

JM having "affairs" of whatever sort isn't against the law or a violation of bar ethics, even if the charges were true, which personally, I don't believe they are. The most serious charge JM faced was that he used his alleged affairs to leak confidential and privileged information about the hold out juror's identity. That was an outrageous fabrication, imo, and one that can be laid squarely at the feet of Tammy Rose. The Bar was utterly dismissive of that charge.

Clark responded to the dismissal by reiterating her contention that JM had transgressed, egregiously, and that she'd appeal. The odds of a successful appeal are about zero, since in order to succeed Clark would have to prove that the Bar had abused it's discretion in arriving at their decision. Nah.

I'm guessing Clark is waging this battle not so much for the , but because she sees herself as a warrior against the very real and across the board corruption in AZ's legal system, and because she , along with most of the defense bar in AZ, loathes JM- for his firm support of the DP, and because of his aggressiveness in every phase of trial.

(PS- I don't think they spoke the day of her travel there either, and agree, given the length of the calls, that VM, not Travis, picked up. He did not want her there, and in fact, if you recall, was that day trying to make plans to go camping that very night).
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Hiya Sister Hope :D

I love reading your posts, always so factual and well stated. :) I don't think she can win her appeal either, as an attny she should know without evidence it's awfully hard to succeed.

I'm watching the ID show, it's not too awful, so far the only thing clearly wrong was the door handle on Travis' door...oh, wait, I walked out of the room and came back and it sounded like someone was saying Travis was set up on a blind date with JA? That isn't the story we've been told or was testified to (happenstance at the convention)?

I'm having some thoughts about the shower/nude pics but have to let them perc a bit, I'm thinking she put a memory card in his camera to take the shower pics (as her trophy of that horrible day) and the nudes, though previously deleted, had been on that same stick, only the thumbnails were recoverable so the time stamps aren't proof to me that they had been taken that day. Anyway, need to think more about that.
 
How did our quotes get so out of wack? The quotes are being attributed to the wrong people. I have never seen that happen before.

BTW, I have a relative in AZ who has seen an ad for an upcoming special on Oxygen, stating "Charged with first degree murder and sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 23 years; now, three years into her sentence, Arias plans an appeal."

He said he saw it on zap2it, which is an online TV guide.
 
Jodi Arias has the possibility of parole in 23 years? Oh no!! She has an elevated self worth and I believe if she is ever allowed back into society, Jodi Arias will kill again. Just for the thrill of it. She's always fancied herself as smarter than anyone else. I don't doubt for a single moment Jodi Arias would model herself like some movie version of a hired killer.
 
natsound said:
How did our quotes get so out of wack? The quotes are being attributed to the wrong people. I have never seen that happen before.

BTW, I have a relative in AZ who has seen an ad for an upcoming special on Oxygen, stating "Charged with first degree murder and sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 23 years; now, three years into her sentence, Arias plans an appeal."

He said he saw it on zap2it, which is an online TV guide.
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TartLemon said:
Jodi Arias has the possibility of parole in 23 years? Oh no!! She has an elevated self worth and I believe if she is ever allowed back into society, Jodi Arias will kill again. Just for the thrill of it. She's always fancied herself as smarter than anyone else. I don't doubt for a single moment Jodi Arias would model herself like some movie version of a hired killer.
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Arizona's laws forbid parole. Even if those laws are rewritten at some point to reinstate the possibility of parole, the will not be eligible. JSS sentenced her to Natural Life, and beyond that, explicitly ruled that the will not be let out, ever, for any reason.

She'll die in prison, unless she's pardoned by a future AZ governor, which means she'll die in prison.
 
geevee said:
Hiya Sister Hope :D

I love reading your posts, always so factual and well stated. :) I don't think she can win her appeal either, as an attny she should know without evidence it's awfully hard to succeed.

I'm watching the ID show, it's not too awful, so far the only thing clearly wrong was the door handle on Travis' door...oh, wait, I walked out of the room and came back and it sounded like someone was saying Travis was set up on a blind date with JA? That isn't the story we've been told or was testified to (happenstance at the convention)?

I'm having some thoughts about the shower/nude pics but have to let them perc a bit, I'm thinking she put a memory card in his camera to take the shower pics (as her trophy of that horrible day) and the nudes, though previously deleted, had been on that same stick, only the thumbnails were recoverable so the time stamps aren't proof to me that they had been taken that day. Anyway, need to think more about that.
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I'm glad to hear that the ID show wasn't a slapped together sloppy, or worse, presented as a mystery or an argument for her "innocence." I don't understand why the show wanted to rehash the story, truly, since general interest in the /T's murder evaporated, what, over two years ago? I didn't watch it, and most likely won't. Just about 99.5% of me is thoroughly burned out on all things -related, though over the past year I've had plenty of occasion to apply what this case taught me about narcissistic sociopaths. :D

For you, though, about that camera.......

Let me know when you finish percolating your latest thought. You know I'm always interested in what you come up with, not least because you're so meticulous in your research and thinking things through.

The suppositions IMO that apply to the camera:

1. That the had specific plans for when and how she wanted to torment then kill Travis, and that his camera always figured in those plans.

2. That she read up on how to use his camera after he told her what kind he was buying.

3. That she used his camera because she knew he wouldn't trust her to take photos of him with her own (didn't trust what she would do with the photos, whatever they were, or wherever they were taken, thought he could just delete whatever pics she took off his own camera), and because she had streams of BS ready to use about his camera (such as- "I've always wanted just this kind, let me try it out at least try it out, ok?").


4. That whatever she planned to do with the camera and photos is not necessarily what she ended up doing with either, at all. If the timestamps are even close to being accurate, it's difficult to believe things went according to plan, since she blew a gigantic hole in her alibi by being so late to arrive at Ryan's, and because she had so little time after the murder to clean up and get out.

5. More subjective, IMO, is what it means that she took precious time to delete the shower and accidental photos from his camera. Whatever she intended originally, by the time she chose to delete those photos she (IMO) most likely had decided to leave the camera behind, in the wash, believing all the photos on it would be destroyed.

6. More subjective still.....she may well have hid her own camera in the bathroom or closet before killing him (in the same place she may have hid a get- away backpack with a change of clothes, etc..) in anticipation of taking those trophy shots of a slaughtered Travis (that assumes she always planned on leaving/destroying his camera, or at least, that she'd adjusted to doing so before she killed him).

7. Finally, the general truisms: the isn't all that smart to begin with, never thought through the consequences of anything, vastly over-estimated her own abilities of every kind, and thought she could lie her way out of any situation; AND: her hatred for Travis was intense, and had burned white hot since spring of that year, at the very latest, and by every indication, was intent upon not "just" killing Travis, but obliterating him, destroying every last piece and part and aspect and others' memories of him she could.


(Adding...just thought for the first time it's possible she took his wallet (from his study?pants pockets? ) and rifled through it in his closet, taking his cash, as she waited until he was all the way into the shower (IMO, to surprise him).

That would explain why Flores found one of his business cards on the floor of the closet, and one of his credit cards out loose on his desk in the downstairs study.
 
Hope4More said:
I'm glad to hear that the ID show wasn't a slapped together sloppy, or worse, presented as a mystery or an argument for her "innocence." I don't understand why the show wanted to rehash the story, truly, since general interest in the /T's murder evaporated, what, over two years ago? I didn't watch it, and most likely won't. Just about 99.5% of me is thoroughly burned out on all things -related, though over the past year I've had plenty of occasion to apply what this case taught me about narcissistic sociopaths. :D

For you, though, about that camera.......

Let me know when you finish percolating your latest thought. You know I'm always interested in what you come up with, not least because you're so meticulous in your research and thinking things through.

The suppositions IMO that apply to the camera:

1. That the had specific plans for when and how she wanted to torment then kill Travis, and that his camera always figured in those plans.

2. That she read up on how to use his camera after he told her what kind he was buying.

3. That she used his camera because she knew he wouldn't trust her to take photos of him with her own (didn't trust what she would do with the photos, whatever they were, or wherever they were taken, thought he could just delete whatever pics she took off his own camera), and because she had streams of BS ready to use about his camera (such as- "I've always wanted just this kind, let me try it out at least try it out, ok?").


4. That whatever she planned to do with the camera and photos is not necessarily what she ended up doing with either, at all. If the timestamps are even close to being accurate, it's difficult to believe things went according to plan, since she blew a gigantic hole in her alibi by being so late to arrive at Ryan's, and because she had so little time after the murder to clean up and get out.

5. More subjective, IMO, is what it means that she took precious time to delete the shower and accidental photos from his camera. Whatever she intended originally, by the time she chose to delete those photos she (IMO) most likely had decided to leave the camera behind, in the wash, believing all the photos on it would be destroyed.

6. More subjective still.....she may well have hid her own camera in the bathroom or closet before killing him (in the same place she may have hid a get- away backpack with a change of clothes, etc..) in anticipation of taking those trophy shots of a slaughtered Travis (that assumes she always planned on leaving/destroying his camera, or at least, that she'd adjusted to doing so before she killed him).

7. Finally, the general truisms: the isn't all that smart to begin with, never thought through the consequences of anything, vastly over-estimated her own abilities of every kind, and thought she could lie her way out of any situation; AND: her hatred for Travis was intense, and had burned white hot since spring of that year, at the very latest, and by every indication, was intent upon not "just" killing Travis, but obliterating him, destroying every last piece and part and aspect and others' memories of him she could.


(Adding...just thought for the first time it's possible she took his wallet (from his study?pants pockets? ) and rifled through it in his closet, taking his cash, as she waited until he was all the way into the shower (IMO, to surprise him).

That would explain why Flores found one of his business cards on the floor of the closet, and one of his credit cards out loose on his desk in the downstairs study.
Click to expand...

I was pretty surprised anyone did yet another show about her, I wasn't planning on watching it but was reading the new Stephen/Owen King novel and wanted something in the background after the football game and found that replaying so put the book aside and paid attention to it just to see if it was going to be factual or salacious, I may watch part two replay later tonight, we'll see, it's supposed to focus more on the trial.

1. Agreed, whatever her original plans were, I also believe the camera was a big part of it.

2. Agree as well, I think she was the one who left Zack's camera in Trav's car, either checking out how to use it or stealing the memory card, she had a plan brewing by late March, imo. If my thinking about the nudes being on the memory card previously is correct, it's possible they borrowed Zack's Sony camera to take them (during the pop rocks and tootsie pop party), deleted the pics and she later took the camera outside to take the memory card and left the camera in the car for whatever reason.

3. Yes, by that point he had no faith in anything she said and knew how devious she was. I'm still not positive he knew she was (still) in the house by the turning shower pic but he'd never have let her take shower pics of him with her own camera, I actually have a hard time believing he'd let her take them willingly with any camera but the dynamics of their relationship is still sort of a mystery to me.

4. Yeah, the alibi and the time stamps run so contrary, whatever she originally planned went way off the tracks, and she erroneously thought she could slide by with whatever lie came to mind. Seems like Ryan wasn't too suspicious but everyone else was.

5. Since I have doubts about the correctness of the time stamps, she may have had a bit more time than it seems, the camera in the wash still makes my jaw edge downward. Ms. Photographer? Bleach to wash away pictures? I sigh so heavily when I think of that.

6. Seems very likely she had some kind of get-away plan, even if she only planned to shoot him in the shower, but after what happened and the cleaning of herself she had to do, she didn't draw any attention to herself on her way to the rental car so she had some sort of backup (or stole some of Travis' clothes).

7. Yes, her intention was to obliterate him, then and for ever afterward, trying to leave no one with a good thought about him. My, how such careful, Einsteinian planning backfired!

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if she stole money from his wallet - we never did hear any testimony of its whereabouts or the contents of it, did we?
 
My thoughts on part 1 of the ID show:
1–not learning anything new so far
2–the infamous foot pic was really clear on my HD tv, probably the clearest I’ve ever seen.
3–Jane Velez Mitchell is still so loud. Why must she scream at me?
(I was here for every thread up until the sentencing was over; I just rarely posted.)
 
Am I the only one who thinks one of the reasons why Jodi killed Travis is because this was another relationship that Jodi was in that was nearing the end and she was pissed because none of her other relationships worked out and this one was not going to work out either?
 
geevee said:
I was pretty surprised anyone did yet another show about her, I wasn't planning on watching it but was reading the new Stephen/Owen King novel and wanted something in the background after the football game and found that replaying so put the book aside and paid attention to it just to see if it was going to be factual or salacious, I may watch part two replay later tonight, we'll see, it's supposed to focus more on the trial.

1. Agreed, whatever her original plans were, I also believe the camera was a big part of it.

2. Agree as well, I think she was the one who left Zack's camera in Trav's car, either checking out how to use it or stealing the memory card, she had a plan brewing by late March, imo. If my thinking about the nudes being on the memory card previously is correct, it's possible they borrowed Zack's Sony camera to take them (during the pop rocks and tootsie pop party), deleted the pics and she later took the camera outside to take the memory card and left the camera in the car for whatever reason.

3. Yes, by that point he had no faith in anything she said and knew how devious she was. I'm still not positive he knew she was (still) in the house by the turning shower pic but he'd never have let her take shower pics of him with her own camera, I actually have a hard time believing he'd let her take them willingly with any camera but the dynamics of their relationship is still sort of a mystery to me.

4. Yeah, the alibi and the time stamps run so contrary, whatever she originally planned went way off the tracks, and she erroneously thought she could slide by with whatever lie came to mind. Seems like Ryan wasn't too suspicious but everyone else was.

5. Since I have doubts about the correctness of the time stamps, she may have had a bit more time than it seems, the camera in the wash still makes my jaw edge downward. Ms. Photographer? Bleach to wash away pictures? I sigh so heavily when I think of that.

6. Seems very likely she had some kind of get-away plan, even if she only planned to shoot him in the shower, but after what happened and the cleaning of herself she had to do, she didn't draw any attention to herself on her way to the rental car so she had some sort of backup (or stole some of Travis' clothes).

7. Yes, her intention was to obliterate him, then and for ever afterward, trying to leave no one with a good thought about him. My, how such careful, Einsteinian planning backfired!

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if she stole money from his wallet - we never did hear any testimony of its whereabouts or the contents of it, did we?
Click to expand...


Ah, back to playing some devil's advocate. :)

1. About Zach's camera. Travis wrote in his journal about finding Zach's camera in his car. He was angry (with Zach) about that odd occurrence, probably in part because the had been subjecting him to intense gaslighting for weeks beforehand, including stealing things from him (the diamond ring & his journal, for starters).

Travis wrote that he was going to leave the camera in the car, to force Zach to ask him for it back, so Zach would have to explain himself.

Even if Travis didn't actually follow through on that, I find it difficult to believe Zach wouldn't have noticed a missing card/stick and said something to Travis about it (given that he was probably just as baffled why his camera was found in T's car), and if not to Travis, almost certainly to LE after T was murdered, given the centrality of T's camera and the photos found on it.

---

About the accuracy of the timestamps. No new observations here, but what I'm sure must be repetitive:

I forgot how long it took me to drive from Mesa to Kingston,AZ on that investigation-roadtrip I took and "live-posted."

But what I do remember in general was that it was certainly possible within the timestamps' timeline for the to clean up, get out, and to reach within cell tower range of Kingston.

The most I can imagine the time stamps being off would be by an hour (earlier), that being predicated on my assumption that she turned her cell phone back on at the very earliest opportunity, even before it was completely safe to, because she knew she was many many hours behind schedule, and that Ryan might well have made calls to mutual "friends" looking for her, thus blowing up her alibi still further, and worse, activating that great big PPL grapevine. ;)

Working backwards from when she turned on her phone, and accounting for the Mesa to Hoover Dam drive time for me = the timestamps being accurate, or essentially accurate.
 
Hope4More said:
Ah, back to playing some devil's advocate. :)

1. About Zach's camera. Travis wrote in his journal about finding Zach's camera in his car. He was angry (with Zach) about that odd occurrence, probably in part because the had been subjecting him to intense gaslighting for weeks beforehand, including stealing things from him (the diamond ring & his journal, for starters).

Travis wrote that he was going to leave the camera in the car, to force Zach to ask him for it back, so Zach would have to explain himself.

Even if Travis didn't actually follow through on that, I find it difficult to believe Zach wouldn't have noticed a missing card/stick and said something to Travis about it (given that he was probably just as baffled why his camera was found in T's car), and if not to Travis, almost certainly to LE after T was murdered, given the centrality of T's camera and the photos found on it.

---

About the accuracy of the timestamps. No new observations here, but what I'm sure must be repetitive:

I forgot how long it took me to drive from Mesa to Kingston,AZ on that investigation-roadtrip I took and "live-posted."

But what I do remember in general was that it was certainly possible within the timestamps' timeline for the to clean up, get out, and to reach within cell tower range of Kingston.

The most I can imagine the time stamps being off would be by an hour (earlier), that being predicated on my assumption that she turned her cell phone back on at the very earliest opportunity, even before it was completely safe to, because she knew she was many many hours behind schedule, and that Ryan might well have made calls to mutual "friends" looking for her, thus blowing up her alibi still further, and worse, activating that great big PPL grapevine. ;)

Working backwards from when she turned on her phone, and accounting for the Mesa to Hoover Dam drive time for me = the timestamps being accurate, or essentially accurate.
Click to expand...

I did not know that about Travis writing that in his journal, I missed a lot by not joining Beth's site and reading all of them. BTW, what's up with Beth's crazy make up in this ID trilogy? I don't like to comment on people's looks but Beth is such an attractive woman, she doesn't need the massive eyebrows or sleeveless red dress to be a looker, she is one naturally. Oh, JM is in this as well. Maybe you can look on ID's website and possibly watch it there if you fee like it, as stated above, nothing really new so far, I missed last night's episode so am watching the replay now, part three comes after it.

I agree, time stamps may be off by an hour, like his laptop, it may have been set for CA/Pacific time when purchased and never changed (also like the laptop). I think that extra hour also works with the light coming into the bathroom. Oh, Nurmi is in this ID show too. lol
 
I’ve always thought she turned the license plate upside down near RB’s home to purposely get a police citation or something because she needed to get caught to establish she was in Utah.
She really wasn’t (isn’t) that smart, looking back. She made many boo boo’s.
She is her own worst enemy. CMJA is a psychopath & is where she belongs.
 
salberg7 said:
I’ve always thought she turned the license plate upside down near RB’s home to purposely get a police citation or something because she needed to get caught to establish she was in Utah.
She really wasn’t (isn’t) that smart, looking back. She made many boo boo’s.
She is her own worst enemy. CMJA is a psychopath & is where she belongs.
Click to expand...

Right! She isn't that smart to plan something to establish she was in Utah. Her phone pings and witnesses would have established that anyway.

She is her own worst enemy, that's true.
 
TDoc72 said:
My thoughts on part 1 of the ID show:
1–not learning anything new so far
2–the infamous foot pic was really clear on my HD tv, probably the clearest I’ve ever seen.
3–Jane Velez Mitchell is still so loud. Why must she scream at me?
(I was here for every thread up until the sentencing was over; I just rarely posted.)
Click to expand...

I haven't been able to watch it so far, but:

I have questions about that foot pic. If JA is dragging him at this time, I don't understand why the bathroom is in the background. Unless, after the pic was taken, she spun him around and dragged him back to the bathroom. (If this has been discussed at length months ago on these boards, I wasn't here for that.)

I agree about Jane Velez. She tries too hard. I watched a couple of old clips of her show on Youtube regarding the JA trial, and she had a segment called the "Truth Lab" where she had a couple of experts dissecting different elements. So hoky! I always considered Jane Velez to be Robin to Nancy Grace's Batman.
 
Hope4More said:
Hi Nat-I retired from arguing about all things a long time ago, lol. Sounds like you are newish to the case & forum, so I've tried to give you a heads up that you'll find in post-trials threads here literally hundreds of posts for each and every of virtually any topic relating to Travis, the , the murder, the case, and the trial you can possibly imagine.

(Tricia interviewed JM after his book was published, and many of us contributed questions for her to ask him...he literally broke into laughter when he realized from one question just how deep down rabbit holes we had delved :D).

I know I'm not the only one who returns, sporadically at least, because of how top notch, insightful, and engaging those discussions were here, in no small part because of the amount of time and research so many folks invested in bringing their opinions to the table.

I've been around WS for a fairly long time and for me, this forum's posters & discussion have been the best and most thorough, friendly & respectful I've experienced, even when our disagreements became intense.

Back now into my long-term stand-by mode, waiting and watching and posting about the 's appellate process, which just maybe perhaps possibly is about to begin in earnest.

((PS- being a good Mormon meant getting married, and the age of 30 was an absolute deadline of sorts. Being Travis was more complicated than just being the good Mormon and human being he hoped to be, and in fact, in the many ways that IMO matter most, actually was).
Click to expand...

BBM

Yes, I'm new to the case, and new eyes aren't a bad thing, they're a good thing! New eyes can see the big picture, which can get lost in an overload of intricate details! So we all have something to offer. I might be able to kick off a top-notch discussion one day.
 
salberg7 said:
I’ve always thought she turned the license plate upside down near RB’s home to purposely get a police citation or something because she needed to get caught to establish she was in Utah.
She really wasn’t (isn’t) that smart, looking back. She made many boo boo’s.
She is her own worst enemy. CMJA is a psychopath & is where she belongs.
Click to expand...


I thought that too about the license plate, but changed my mind after lots of folks here presented arguments about why that was unlikely.

But....I still doubt that the plate was upside down when she went through the security checkpoint at Hoover Dam. She went through the checkpoint when there wouldn't have been much traffic, and she went through with 3 large gas cans in her car, when IIRC, gas cans were disallowed (because of security concerns). Would seem that she'd risked raising enough red flags/interest without adding an upside down tag into the mix.

She cleaned & straightened things up before reaching the dam, but she also (supposedly) stopped early into Utah to throw evidence away. This is a reach, but maybe she had used a (stolen?) Arizona plate for the entire time she was in AZ, and switched it with her rental plate after the dam, very late at night, and when she was likely very tired, and in haste, because she was definitely very late.
 
geevee said:
I did not know that about Travis writing that in his journal, I missed a lot by not joining Beth's site and reading all of them. BTW, what's up with Beth's crazy make up in this ID trilogy? I don't like to comment on people's looks but Beth is such an attractive woman, she doesn't need the massive eyebrows or sleeveless red dress to be a looker, she is one naturally. Oh, JM is in this as well. Maybe you can look on ID's website and possibly watch it there if you fee like it, as stated above, nothing really new so far, I missed last night's episode so am watching the replay now, part three comes after it.

I agree, time stamps may be off by an hour, like his laptop, it may have been set for CA/Pacific time when purchased and never changed (also like the laptop). I think that extra hour also works with the light coming into the bathroom. Oh, Nurmi is in this ID show too. lol
Click to expand...

I actually checked ID's site (For a Hope, I sure am hopeless, lol). But I'd have to pay for each episode, because we don't have cable or any regular TV at all (we do a la carte: Netflix, Amazon Prime, like that).

Does the show cover any new info at all? Any new insights by JM or Nurmi or Mendez?
 
Hope4More said:
I actually checked ID's site (For a Hope, I sure am hopeless, lol). But I'd have to pay for each episode, because we don't have cable or any regular TV at all (we do a la carte: Netflix, Amazon Prime, like that).

Does the show cover any new info at all? Any new insights by JM or Nurmi or Mendez?
Click to expand...

Oh, darn. Nothing really new that comes to mind, except for (I think it was) Chris Hughes saying Travis was set up on a blind date at the convention with this 'blonde bombshell', I did miss some bits and pieces of it here and there so anyone else here who watched all three parts, please chime in with anything I missed that wasn't known previous.

The sentencing retrial was almost an afterthought, only 5 minutes or so at the end was spent on it. Oh, they mentioned something about 'The Missing Pieces' available on their site as an app? I can't recall how it was worded, I don't play with cells and apps and all that so don't know if it's a pay for or even worth it if it is. We probably know all the missing pieces anyhow. lol
 
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