CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #5

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Thanks, I hadn't seen that. It's still a lot easier to find bodies in a river, then in the ocean. Probably they are just going to have to wait and see if the other bodies wash up on the shore.

Heck, it's hard to find bodies in a lake or pond! They've come back up to the top years after they disappeared, and even after searches have gone through it. (FWIW, I believe the whole family was in the car. The only scenario I could where they would not be is if one of the kids ran away from home and, for fear of being "found out" or whatever, the mothers took the rest of the kids and skipped town. However, if that had been the situation then I think the child would've shown up by now.)
 
People troll others for all kinds of reasons. My job makes me have a more public persona than most and I depend upon the general public for my livelihood. Although I'll get the occasional rude comment about my actual work (someone didn't like it or they have a valid criticism or complaint) I also get 10-20 trollish comments every week from people who are literally just being mean. They'll write me and make fun of my hair, criticize my looks (which have nothing to do with what I do for a living), make fun of one of my features, etc. Sometimes they'll cyber sleuth me and find things about my kids and make fun of THEM. Trolls troll because they enjoy getting rises out of people. That's what they do and it's why they do it. No other reason. And I absolutely believe that the Harts got obnoxious comments from people over that picture-not honest criticisms but people just being mean. A regional nightly news program did a story about me a few weeks ago and I am STILL getting messages from people, once again, making fun of everything from my looks to my house. I'll occasionally get the "you're so ugly you should die" remark. (And, excuse my conceit here, but I am far from "ugly" but even if I was, it's just cruel.) I once got a message from someone who had found a toddler picture of my daughter with Santa Claus. They said that they had shared it with a pedophile group and that the consensus was that she was, "An abomination but still rapeable." That was on Facebook. I reported it and FB closed that person's account, but I am sure they opened up another one within minutes. While people DO generally move on and turn their attention elsewhere, there's always someone new discovering the story.

There are those who get angry for valid reasons (they don't agree with what the person in the story was doing, they see an injustice, etc.) but just as many lash out in anger for reasons that don't make any sense at all (or they're just jealous because someone else got attention). It's really hard to say but it happens a lot.

And how do people find folks? I guess the same way that we do on here-they sleuth. :) All you really need is a first and last name, or else a first or last name and town of residence. With technology and social media being what it is, folks are easy to track down these days.

Yikes. That is a lot of cruelty. Hope you and your family are okay.
 
Yikes. That is a lot of cruelty. Hope you and your family are okay.

I handle it a lot better than I used to. :) It kind of comes with the territory. If you put yourself out there and get any kind of attention, you're welcoming in the bad along with the good. I have no trouble believing that the Harts got a lot of negativity for that picture, and that some of it was probably pretty awful. The anonymity of the internet means that people are a lot more forward in their attacking. (None of that, of course, excuses any of the Harts' behavior.)
 
When things do not make sense to me, there is something wrong in my eyes.

First of all, the photographer is a Vietnamese man. Vietnamese are subject to much discrimination. As a matter of fact even though they put their lives on the line during the war, they are now subject to deportation. The photographer says that he got positive feedback. Nothing negative.

The Harts probably had a cell phone and were renting. Media could find their address but how easy is it for the average person to find the address of renters?

Portland area is huge. The kids were not in school. It sounds as if their friends were festival friends so it does not seem like they had contact with the general public.

I wonder about rhe mechanics of finding someone.

My sister rents. If you google her, her address comes up. Not hard.

Eta - I think you’re severely underestimating the willingness and efforts of trolls to doxx people, sometimes for no reason at all.
 
My sister rents. If you google her, her address comes up. Not hard.

Eta - I think you’re severely underestimating the willingness and efforts of trolls to doxx people, sometimes for no reason at all.

I sat here just now and looked up 10 people I went to high school with, not knowing anything but the women's maiden names. I found them all within minutes-addresses, phone numbers, and social media pages. And you're right-doxxing is a really big thing and happens a lot. As I said earlier, trolls troll just for the fun of it sometimes and for no other reason.

ETA: One of my colleagues was a FB friend with Jen. She said that she looked her up and found her after the picture of Devonte came out. They began a friendship after connecting. So yes, the women were apparently fairly easy to find.
 
First post here- I’ve been following this case closely, and just caught up on all the threads. I find it so coincidental that that 2 of the 3 missing are the 2 that went for help. If the body is identified as Sierra (as I’m guessing it will be), this seems even more suspicious- out of 6 kids, the only 2 yet to be found are Hannah and Devonte?

Also, is it typical for the FBI to put out their missing person info 3 weeks after the fact? I’m confused about that.
 
First post here- I’ve been following this case closely, and just caught up on all the threads. I find it so coincidental that that 2 of the 3 missing are the 2 that went for help. If the body is identified as Sierra (as I’m guessing it will be), this seems even more suspicious- out of 6 kids, the only 2 yet to be found are Hannah and Devonte?

Also, is it typical for the FBI to put out their missing person info 3 weeks after the fact? I’m confused about that.
:welcome:

I have puzzled over this also. But you really drilled down on this glaring piece of the puzzle.

We are very fortunate to have gitana1 join the discussion. Her experience and knowledge of the law is priceless to the discussion.

:cow:
 
I don’t disagree about mental illness being terrifying, and it’s so often difficult to treat. I do believe, however, that some people do awful things for their own gratification, not because of true mental illness. The courts have a very narrow definition of mental illness in determining guilt. A person is not considered mentally ill unless it’s determined that they don’t know that they are doing wrong. So, legally speaking, these two didn’t qualify. Medically, we don’t know. But if one or both of them was mentally ill, they had signals that they needed help when abuse was first reported. Instead, they pulled kids out of school and eventually left the state...more than once. Unlike MrsEmmaPeel, they didn’t try to get help for their impulses and keep trying until something worked. One can be mentally ill and humble. Hubris is not diagnosed as mental illness...yet. :)

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/.../201411/does-your-boss-suffer-hubris-syndrome

http://www.clinmed.rcpjournal.org/content/8/4/428.full.pdf

A book that taught me to understand that mental illness and abuse are not the same and that mental illness is not predictive of abuse is “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft. He explains that abuse is calculated and it continues because it serves the status quo of the abuser. It is written from the context of heterosexual couples, but for me it explains why someone could become an abuser and stay that way. Here is a pdf of it: http://unityandstruggle.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf
 
Trying to get caught up as much as I can on this. I've been following loosely. I knew I should have joined the threads the second this went off. I don't know if it's that I'm too far behind, or that this story is too crazy to make a lick of sense.

Meh, I'll try.
 
Trying to get caught up as much as I can on this. I've been following loosely. I knew I should have joined the threads the second this went off. I don't know if it's that I'm too far behind, or that this story is too crazy to make a lick of sense.

Meh, I'll try.
A "Central Links Headquarters" would be nice for this case, chasing links down through the threads that discuss them and the discussions that have spun off is kind of a slog. There is a timeline but links could be added to it?
 
It seems odd to me that the FBI released a Missing Persons poster yesterday when they have a body and are just waiting for identification.

Maybe it's because they really have no clue which girl's body they have, and want to cover all their bases?
 
First post here- I’ve been following this case closely, and just caught up on all the threads. I find it so coincidental that that 2 of the 3 missing are the 2 that went for help. If the body is identified as Sierra (as I’m guessing it will be), this seems even more suspicious- out of 6 kids, the only 2 yet to be found are Hannah and Devonte?

Also, is it typical for the FBI to put out their missing person info 3 weeks after the fact? I’m confused about that.

It would be the best twist ever if those childen somehow managed to escape. Even if they were loaded in the car with the rest, there would be a small hope they got away -or were left for dead, but were alive - at a stop along the way. Police must have some video besides the register video show to the public. It's probably not a very realistic hope.
 
It would be the best twist ever if those childen somehow managed to escape. Even if they were loaded in the car with the rest, there would be a small hope they got away -or were left for dead, but were alive - at a stop along the way. Police must have some video besides the register video show to the public. It's probably not a very realistic hope.

I want that to be true so badly, but I think it is more likely that if Devonte and Hannah aren’t in the ocean, they were killed somewhere else. ☹️
 
It really depends on the ability to sample/cross check, how much water the body was exposed to, for example and several other factors it's complicated, and this was a preliminary report. I wonder what evidence might exist to show chronic drinking vs a last-act chug for "courage."
 
So I want to say upfront that IF the Harts knew of what I’m going to say, it seems more likely to me that they would use it to cover their tears than using it wholeheartedly for the best interests of the children.

1) many times kids “from hard places” are a bit behind socially, even developmentally. So the 10yo seems 6 or the 19yo seems 14. So it may be that kids weren’t dating, going to college, driving, etc simply because they weren’t ready yet.

2) many times kids “from hard places” need rules that seem odd to the average person. Their intimacy with others, their relationship with food, etc can all be skewed so rules keep them safe and keep healthy boundaries until the child shows they can follow normal patterns of behavior in their own.

3) many times, it is encouraged to parents of kids “from hard places” to keep their world small. Homeschooling, limited friendships, not doing certain activities all help kids develop healthy familiar relationships, keep anxiety lower, help minimize behaviors, etc.

4) there are studies that show family socialization to be what really shapes a person socially. You have healthy role models from your parents and older siblings. You teach younger siblings. You have your best friends often within a family. Of course, it’s not the ONLY socialization suggested. Normally, people would have people they did things with, hung around at least semi-regularly, could go to when they need help, etc. But generally, school type socialization isn’t “real world” nor the healthiest version.

5) discipline for kids from hard places looks different. Sometimes it may appear we are too lenient or making excuses. Sometimes people wonder why we put up with certain things. But many times, we are ultra consistent, have clearly drawn lines, and hope the child feels more secure with knowing the boundaries. And if those boundaries do bend, our child may not be able to understand that this was a special circumstance. So bedtime is at X every single night without fail. A kid may NEVER get a sofa. They may only be allowed to hug people with their last name. They must hold mama’s shirt tail in public. Whatever.

For an adoptive child, especially one born addicted to drugs, who had several homes, who experienced neglect and abuse, homeschooling, a small world, strange rules, strict (not harsh!) discipline, recognizing they are a little behind developmentally may be extra helpful.

I think my biggest thought regarding this is to encourage people to know that this is encouraged TO SOME DEGREE to adoptive families. Don’t jump to heavily on the idea that we are all hiding something if we are doing some/all of these things.

Again, maybe the Harts heard some of these things and ran with it. Or maybe they used them as excuses to go too far with it all. Or maybe they never did any research and were clueless on top of abusive.

I just wanted to share some things you might not know about.

I could see oldest ones like Markis being socially and developmentally "behind" due to their hard experiences. But some of the other kids were so young. They would've been able to adjust. They would have remembered their old lives. Abigail would've been about 2 yrs old when she was adopted. Ciera and Jeremiah were pretty young too.
 
What rational reason is there for CPS to leave a card at the home of a potential abuser?

It doesn't sound unusual to me. It's to give the parents a chance to work with them. CPS doesn't go to people's houses with the purpose of removing them unless they're in imminent danger. I guess they didn't think the kids were in immediate danger. CPS's purpose isn't to remove children from their homes. If a parent is willing to work with them (i.e. cooperate with the investigation, take parenting classes, submit to home visits, etc.) they have a better chance at getting their kids back.
 
I want that to be true so badly, but I think it is more likely that if Devonte and Hannah aren’t in the ocean, they were killed somewhere else. ☹️

I really want to believe that Devonte and Hannah ran away at night when everyone was sleeping. :(
 
If the moms had done something to Hannah or Devonte, in front of the other kids, I don't think they could have controlled them very well. Wouldn't they have tried to escape?

I think they would have had to separate them somehow first and give a good excuse for the situation.


I was wondering if maybe they had set up camp in a remote camp ground, and 'pretended' to leave the 2 of them to watch the camp, while the rest went to get supplies? But maybe the 2 were poisoned or something, without the other kids knowing?

Thinking something like your speculations are why the FBI has asked for the public's help... Maybe connecting the 3am text combined with the route. Maybe they know but haven't released the DNA confirmation of the fourth child? And it is Devonte and Hannah who are still missing, and how many dogs? No floating contents from the crash is a mystery, too.

If they had killed or abandoned those two prior it almost makes the plunge more plausible... Can't even believe I am thinking that. The route was coastal, looking for the place to do it? They passed the cliff on the drive southward. Guaranteed, that cliff is much more impressive, ominous in person, than photos. Maybe they thought without tire marks, no one would find them for a while? Especially if the cell phone recovered is not theirs? Or, if the phone is theirs was it a part of the staging, robbery, plunging off the cliff fleeing?

Abandoning the animals at the house is another piece that indicates maybe something bad could have happened there and they just booked it out of there without care. On the run, they knew it was over. I do believe both women were in on it. And if something happened to Devonte and Hannah prior, they had the children they could control, even by terrifying them into submission.

The images of happy family, dogs and chickens is so the opposite of what these women were capable of.
 
It doesn't sound unusual to me. It's to give the parents a chance to work with them. CPS doesn't go to people's houses with the purpose of removing them unless they're in imminent danger. I guess they didn't think the kids were in immediate danger. CPS's purpose isn't to remove children from their homes. If a parent is willing to work with them (i.e. cooperate with the investigation, take parenting classes, submit to home visits, etc.) they have a better chance at getting their kids back.


That's one of the reasons that I believe Jen and Sarah were not extremely afraid that the kids would be taken away. I believe that they were aware that the kids would not be snatched away from them immediately. Jen and Sarah were probably more upset over feeling betrayed by the children.
 
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