Premeditation

Wudge said:

The point is that based on all the evidence in the public domain, people in this forum have hundreds, if not thousands, of different holdings on what transpired. Obviously, this immemse breadth of view and holding points to an immense lack of clarity -- a smog pot centric case. This is true not only as regards premeditation and the murder one charge, but lesser charges as well.

This lack of clarity exists, because the evidence itself does not provide a high degree of clarity. And when the evidence does not provide a high degree of clarity, then people must necessarily guess amongst a large number of options. The problem is that jurors are forbidden to guess (or assume or specuate), because the degree of certainly demanded at the level of 'proof beyond a reasonable doubt' certaintly cannot be satisfied by guessing.

As I have said elsewhere, this goes to explain why so many poor souls who got caught up in a high-profile case have been wrongfully demonized in monstrous ways or, worse still, have been or were wrongfully convicted and imprisoned.

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How many more souls have walked away free after committing horrible horrible acts? Trials are not about right or wrong, they are about having the best council. Juriors have so many smoke and mirror games played on them, it is hard to find any clarity of the truth, much less a high degree of clarity. Expecially when you have the suspect only open her mouth to lie.

Wudge said:

In most every state, premeditation (planning and deliberation in most states) is a key element of a murder one charge, as is intent (willful). Most states also hold that malice aforethought be proven. However, for the purposes of this case, this thread and Florida law, premeditation is the centerpiece element of murder one that is being discussed.

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Yep. I am slow this morning. My Titans are in the cellar...and UT got leap frogged by Bama in the polls. AIEEE!!!

Do you believe this is a murder two charge? I think, following your posts, that is your opinion...but I don't want to speak for you.

Imbackon said:

You're right!
I'd convict her based on her actions alone. Just seeing her with her arms around Tony at Blockbuster is enough for me. No innocent person, especially a mother would be walking around renting movies soon after having their daughter "kidnapped". Smell of death in the car, not reporting her missing, pretending she was with a non existent Zanny the Nanny, never reporting her missing blah blah blah all spells it out for me. She admitted and it will be presented as part of the evidence, that "nothing she has done so far (to help LE) will help find Caylee", so there you have it.
I'd volunteer to put the needle in her arm, if you want to know the truth.
ETA I'm actually not pro DP got carried away making the point. I might vote Dp if this was my only option however because I am so convinced of her guilt.

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Admitting that you would convict and execute Casey on a basis that was lacking in evidence represents pure honesty. I certainly can't admire that you would do such a thing, but I do admire your honesty.

Your post supports my holding on the need for professional jurors in capital or high-profile cases, and it further helps to explain the large number of wrongful convictions and/or wrongful demonizations in cases such as this one.

RR0004 said:

I would never have been able to figure out titcr!! Actually, I thought it might have to do with a body part. LOL

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I just want to point out that the conext in how you use TITCR can alter the meaning somewhat around and on different forums throughout the Interwebz. The definitions you have been provided are correct. This is a more detailed definition with a bit of context that is closer to my understanding of how it is generally used on forums I travel (not my wording - copied from a fav urban dictionary):
----------------------------------------------
titcr This Is The Credited Response.

Used on discussion boards (at least on xoxohth) when a respondent makes a statement that is either poignant, valid or otherwise hilarious. It is what someone writes after another person makes a well reasoned or an on-point observation in the course of a thread.
Origin: Likely reference to standardized test questions in which there are multiple wrong answer choices, but only one credited response.
Those who use this term are generally of high intelligence, but completely overly occupied with the nuances of the admissions process. Most need to get a life and stop wasting their youth posting on anonymous admissions related boards.
Jack: I want to go to Law School. I think I'd like to go to Boalt.

Mike: You might want to re-think this. Boalt is a festering TTT ****hole in decline.

Dan: TITCR


This Is The Credited Response.

Used on discussion boards (at least on xoxohth) when a respondent makes a statement that is either poignant, valid or otherwise hilarious. It is what someone writes after another person makes a well reasoned or an on-point observation in the course of a thread.

Origin: Likely reference to standardized test questions in which there are multiple wrong answer choices, but only one credited response.
Those who use this term are generally of high intelligence, but completely overly occupied with the nuances of the admissions process. Most need to get a life and stop wasting their youth posting on anonymous admissions related boards.

Jack: I want to go to Law School. I think I'd like to go to Boalt.

Mike: You might want to re-think this. Boalt is a festering TTT chithole in decline.

Dan: TITCR
-----------------------------
HTH

And I should add that I am not presuming that is how it has been used here, simply that on forums I travel it can be used in as an off-the-cuff response, too.

tasylshari said:

I'm exhausted just from viewing the actual (bleeeeech) duct tape that covered the face of an innocent, young, cheated Caylee. Then I almost threw up in my mouth again after looking at the photos of Casey's back (bleeeeech). I can't imagine an entire jury would not be bawling with these 3 strips of duct tape ALONE. Anyone with a heart would be heartbroken (except the A's, that is).

Three strips. Yep, three. Super-duper sticky duct tape. Three times the premeditation. Let's fry Casey three times - - - for Caylee!

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I totally agree! I have served on 2 jury's, and when looking at autopsy photo's or other graphic evidence such as the duct tape, there is a huge emotional impact on jury members. You have to remember that jury members are just regular people off the street. They aren't used to seeing this type of thing, or having to look at photographs of it. I can only imagine how they will survive this trial. A small innocent beautiful child has died an awful death. It's against the laws of God and nature. I hope they are offered counseling after the trial ends, this type of thing stays with you.

LittleBitty35 said:

Yep. I am slow this morning. My Titans are in the cellar...and UT got leap frogged by Bama in the polls. AIEEE!!!

Do you believe this is a murder two charge? I think, following your posts, that is your opinion...but I don't want to speak for you.

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Do I believe Casey committed murder two? No. She might have committed murder two. She might not have committed murder two. The same holds true for murder one. But I certainly would never convict anyone on a basis of 'might have'.

Putting that truth aside and addressing murder two itself, malice aforethought (depraved mind) is the key element that must be proved in a murder two charge. As I said in a prior post, I have no idea what transpired, and I really don't think that anyone else knows anymore about what transpired than I do. Simply put, I would have to guess, and that's something that I would never do.

Some posters suspect that Casey flew into a rage and that Caylee died as a result of Casey's actions in their alleged rage scene. Is there clear proof that such took place? No. At least, I certainly have not seen such proof. In fact, by my measure, nothing comes even close to proving such a thing happened.

Moreover, as regards a charge of murder two, it's important to focus on the fact that the prosecutors have not charged Casey with murder two. They've skipped that lesser charge. Rather, manslaughter is their choice for a lesser charge. If they thought that malice aforethought existed, murder two should have been their next logical charge, not manslaughter.

2nd degree murder is a Lesser Included Offense of both 1st degree murder and felony murder. See pages 116 - 118 of Florida Standard Jury Instructions, here.

From page 119 of above link:

"To prove the crime of Second Degree Murder, the State must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. (Victim) is dead.

2. The death was caused by the criminal act of (defendant).

3. There was an unlawful killing of (victim) by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life."

Premeditation or malice aforethought is not required to prove 2nd degree murder in Florida.

Wudge said:

The point is that based on all the evidence in the public domain, people in this forum have hundreds, if not thousands, of different holdings on what transpired. Obviously, this immemse breadth of view and holding points to an immense lack of clarity -- a smog pot centric case. This is true not only as regards premeditation and the murder one charge, but lesser charges as well.

This lack of clarity exists, because the evidence itself does not provide a high degree of clarity. And when the evidence does not provide a high degree of clarity, then people must necessarily guess amongst a large number of options. The problem is that jurors are forbidden to guess (or assume or specuate), because the degree of certainly demanded at the level of 'proof beyond a reasonable doubt' certaintly cannot be satisfied by guessing.

As I have said elsewhere, this goes to explain why so many poor souls who got caught up in a high-profile case have been wrongfully demonized in monstrous ways or, worse still, have been or were wrongfully convicted and imprisoned.

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Actually most of the "poor souls" who were wrongfully convicted were convicted prior to advanced DNA tech, and other forensic tech-- not the press.

In all high profile cases, there is a lot of publicity. We have a free press, and that is a double-edged sword.

Also, the public antics of the defendant, the family, and the defense attorney hsve increased the "profile" of this case dramatically.

However, that's what the courtroom is for-- to present the evidence in a sequence and manner that is understandable to a jury.

And, again-- the fact that there have been 130 exonerations, 23 (IIRC) in Florida, indicated that due to advanced forensic science things are getting better parabolically.

We also must consider that prolly at least as many perps have ESCAPED arrest and conviction due to the same former deficits in forensic science that have existed in the past.

Grand Jury indictments:
(Forget the Ham sandwich)
ETA THIS WAS BEFORE THE BODY WAS FOUND, The 31 days and duct tape . . . nails in the coffin

1. The first count is for first-degree murder, a capital offense that is punishable by the death penalty.

This charge alleges that Casey Anthony caused the death of Caylee “from a premeditated design” between June 15 and July 16. Those dates correspond to the last time Caylee was seen and when she was reported missing. The indictment offers no other information on how, why or when.
2. Count two is aggravated child abuse.
This alleges that between the same dates Casey Anthony “did knowingly or willfully…causes reat bodily harm, permanent disfigurement or permanent disability to Caylee Marie Anthony…by intentionally inflicting physical injury…or by intentionally committing an act or actively encouraging another person to commit an act which could reasonably expected to result in physical injury.”
3 Count three is aggravated manslaughter of a child.
This count alleges that Casey Anthony caused Caylee’s death by failing to provide “the care, supervision and services necessary to maintain Caylee Marie Anthony’s physical and mental health” or that she did not make “a reasonable effort” to protect Caylee from someone else abuses, neglecting or exploiting her.
4 – 7 Counts four through seven are all “providing false information to a law enforcement officer.”
Each count lists a time when Casey Anthony is alleged to have lied to investigators about Caylee.
Count four says she lied to Orange County Sheriff’s Office Detective Yuri Melich when she said she worked at Universal Studios in 2008.
Count five alleges she lied to Melich when she said she left Caylee with a woman named Zenaida Gonzalez.
Count six alleges she lied to Melich when she said she told two former Universal Studios employees that Caylee was missing.
And count seven alleges Anthony lied to Melich when she said she received phone call from Caylee on July 15
__________________

Wudge said:

Do I believe Casey committed murder two? No. She might have committed murder two. She might not have committed murder two. The same holds true for murder one. But I certainly would never convict anyone on a basis of 'might have'.

Putting that truth aside and addressing murder two itself, malice aforethought (depraved mind) is the key element that must be proved in a murder two charge. As I said in a prior post, I have no idea what transpired, and I really don't think that anyone else knows anymore about what transpired than I do. Simply put, I would have to guess, and that's something that I would never do.

Some posters suspect that Casey flew into a rage and that Caylee died as a result of Casey's actions in their alleged rage scene. Is there clear proof that such took place? No. At least, I certainly have not seen such proof. In fact, by my measure, nothing comes even close to proving such a thing happened.

Moreover, as regards a charge of murder two, it's important to focus on the fact that the prosecutors have not charged Casey with murder two. They've skipped that lesser charge. Rather, manslaughter is their choice for a lesser charge. If they thought that malice aforethought existed, murder two should have been their next logical charge, not manslaughter.

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Well, what IS provable is that Caylee was in KC's sole care and custody, when she died, and she died unnaturally.



In addition, there is a plethora of circumstantial evidence pointing directly to KC, and to no one else.

If there is any explanation, it has not been provided by the defendant or her counsel-- which is the defendant's choice.

Defense counsel has claimed to having exonerating evidence. But, he has not used it to get KC out of jail.

KC, like everyone else on the planet, will live and die by the consequences of choice.

Wudge said:

Admitting that you would convict and execute Casey on a basis that was lacking in evidence represents pure honesty. I certainly can't admire that you would do such a thing, but I do admire your honesty.

Your post supports my holding on the need for professional jurors in capital or high-profile cases, and it further helps to explain the large number of wrongful convictions and/or wrongful demonizations in cases such as this one.

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That may be your opinion of what is best. However,we are dealing with the realities of the situation. We have the systems that we have, and we have the laws that have been put into place by the people pf Florida.

Also, in a country populated by 300,000,000 people, 130 isn't many wrong convictions. Of course, one is too many. But, we are not living in a perfect world, and those 130 poor souls have been exonerated by modern science.

And, discussion of professional jurors would require its own thread. This thread is about premeditation.

Wudge said:

Applying three pieces of tape instead instead of one very well thought out piece of tape (which would have been wrapped around the entire head) strongly suggests a serendipitous application.

Do remember too that Caylee's hands were not tied or taped together behind her back. Nor were her hands tied or taped to her waist. The fact is that her hands were not tied or taped together in any way. In a murder where tape was going to be used to sufficate someone, a planned approach would be to ensure the victim could not use their hands to pull the tape away.

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How do we know that Caylee's hands were not tied or taped together? What evidence that has been released convinces you of such a thing?

tweety933 said:

How do we know that Caylee's hands were not tied or taped together? What evidence that has been released convinces you of such a thing?

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We don't. That is a supposition.

Evidence of binding, or not, would appear on the skin.

Also, as was posted before, it's irrelevant. A two-year old is easily overpowered by an adult, or even by an older, larger child. And the duct tape was industrial strength.

tweety933 said:

How do we know that Caylee's hands were not tied or taped together? What evidence that has been released convinces you of such a thing?

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There is no evidence of that.
If you can't breathe it doesn't make much difference. Death would ensue very rapidly.

Wudge said:

That's the problem. You are basing your proof of premeditation on a question. But questions are not evidence. Hence, your basis is lacking evidence.

(Though I'm not sure that bothers you or would bother you if you were seated on the jury).

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Wudge, Another question, Would you put a "freed" Casey Anthony in charge of your child or anyone whom cared about?

Given what is in evidence so far, including her behavior pre & post death, it is pretty difficult to separate ones emotional response from just the information . . when a "non professional" juror, ie someone's mom, dad, grandma, aunt, sees photos of a child's skull, with duct tape wrapped around it, no words, no amount of technical, forensic, information is needed . .

tweety933 said:

How do we know that Caylee's hands were not tied or taped together? What evidence that has been released convinces you of such a thing?

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No evidence that we know of states or even suggests that Caylee's were tied, so we certainly can't assume or reasonably hold that they were tied.

Practically speaking, the D.A. would have had to decide to hold such a smoking gun back. My long experience has taught me that once high-profile cases go nuclear, smoking gun evidence gets leaked -- or released under Sunshine laws ... chuckle -- at the first opportunity, not held back.

Since it has been mentioned. Thoughts on professional jurors.

Yes one could educate a selected population of people to serve on juries. These individuals would have greater understanding of the legal system and it's monstrous amounts of in and outs. Things such as premeditation would be understood and the jury would be educated as to what it is and how it must be proven to a greater extent then it current is to jurors.

My problem with that is the law system itself can't even agree on some of it's in's and out's. Defense Lawyers, Prosecutor's, Judge's all have slightly differing views depending on who you ask and how its interpreted. Also who would comprise of this jury. Would it be well educated, upper middle to upper class income people whom have an education in law? Given the fact that a majority of defendants have little education and live at or below poverty level how would that be a jury of ones peers? Also who would select these jurors? How would the people who select the jurors be selected?

I personally have a great deal of problems with "professional" juries. How would one become a professional? Would it require some form of certification and or college work? Also would these people be paid and by whom would they be paid?

To me this idea posses a plethora of problems and would be prone to serious impropriety. I also feel that a professional jury would go completely against the spirit of our legal system and the idea of a jury of ones peers.

celticthyme said:

Wudge, Another question, Would you put a "freed" Casey Anthony in charge of your child or anyone whom cared about?

Given what is in evidence so far, including her behavior pre & post death, it is pretty difficult to separate ones emotional response from just the information . . when a "non professional" juror, ie someone's mom, dad, grandma, aunt, sees photos of a child's skull, with duct tape wrapped around it, no words, no amount of technical, forensic, information is needed . .

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I draw a negative impression of Casey as a Mother. Of course, that's evidence of nothing in this case.

It's true that non-professional jurors will rule on the evidence in this case, and you clearly imply that certain evidence will emotionally effect them and influence their verdict. I won't argue that won't be true, for experience has long taught me that such jurors ignore jury instructions and violate their oath. Of course, this supports the need for jurors who will follow jury instructions and uphold their oath; e.g., professional jurors.

Wudge said:

No evidence that we know of states or even suggests that Caylee's were tied, so we certainly can't assume or reasonably hold that they were tied.

Practically speaking, the D.A. would have had to decide to hold such a smoking gun back. My long experience has taught me that once high-profile cases go nuclear, smoking gun evidence gets leaked -- or released under Sunshine laws ... chuckle -- at the first opportunity, not held back.

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Is this an implication the the SA's office is leaking information in a way that is not covered under the Fl Sunshine laws? To me it seems this is alleging that the SA's office is guilty of some sort of impropriety?

I believe that the SA's office is holding back evidence and we have yet to see all the evidence of this case because of the Sunshine laws. We are still a long ways from trial here. Also if the state had smoking gun evidence it may be prudent of them to ask for it to be sealed or to wait to release it because of it's inflammatory nature. For example I seriously doubt the public will ever see the pictures of the skull with the duct tape around it.

Wudge said:

What's the clear inculpatory evidence of premeditation?

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I believe 3 pieces of duct tape placed across Caylee's nose and mouth warrants premeditation. KC could have stopped at the first piece of tape and then remove it but she didn't she placed 2 more.