WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #3

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MrShutter45 said:
I was wondering that myself about the "pressure bump" and the amount of cord taken, one could only wonder if he manipulated the stairs causing this, seems the crew would not take note of anything else beyond that point, you would think with the stairs dangling like that all the way to Reno the gauges would have tripped again somewhere with turbulence?
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He could have controlled pressure bumps if he knew about them ahead of time. Cord would have been very useful for that. The stairs dangling would not have caused significant guage reaction.

He could cause a bump by wedging something at the end of the cord between one or both struts and the wall of the stairs while down on the stairs, then jerking the something out from the top of the stairs using the cord. The "something" could even be a big knot of cord. He could then have avoided making a bump when he actually jumped by leaving something wedged between the struts and walls. Whatever was wedged in could have vibrated out at any time later.

All we need is to get the flight data recorder data, then check the whole route.
 
georger said:
....

The National Guard chopper pilot flew Himmelsbach and another FBI agent on 11/24/71 on a course basically back and forth across V23, the path they told me that #305 passed right over PDX (pretty close) on and that their primary Cooper search operation was east of Woodland (about 20 miles north of Vancouver). .....
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Flight path info consistent with the flight path from the FBI, produced by a system and personnel who did it all the time.
Everyone surmised that night he jumped east of Woodland, well not everyone but everyone that mattered. Either Cooper allowed for some false readings, or the crew was too sensitized to the first change in pressure (maybe from Cooper testing the airstairs but not actually leaving). A second change in pressure might go less noticed ...... We'll probably never know. But that is where Himmelsbach and the chopper pilot went that night, with lights out soas not to alert Cooper on the ground.
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Possible they surmised based on an "oscillations" report rather than a pressure bump?
 
hominid said:
He could have controlled pressure bumps if he knew about them ahead of time. Cord would have been very useful for that. The stairs dangling would not have caused significant guage reaction.

He could cause a bump by wedging something at the end of the cord between one or both struts and the wall of the stairs while down on the stairs, then jerking the something out from the top of the stairs using the cord. The "something" could even be a big knot of cord. He could then have avoided making a bump when he actually jumped by leaving something wedged between the struts and walls. Whatever was wedged in could have vibrated out at any time later.

All we need is to get the flight data recorder data, then check the whole route.
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I'm not really sure what it is but, like a cop when he has a gut feeling about something, I feel there is a missed piece of evidence surrounding the back of the plane that is possibly right in front of us, hard to explain, just feel something is wrong back there! he cut almost 80 feet of cord I believe

Five cords on the pink parachute had cut lines:
Line #7 had 186 ¾ inches of cord removed
Line #11 had 169 ¾ inches of cord removed
Line #12 had 169 inches of cord removed
Line #15 had 213 inches of cord removed
Line #22 had 217 ¼ inches of cord removed
The length of an uncut cord (including the double-sewn cord used to tie into the cross-connector, the bundle of cords located between the butterfly snap-hook rings in the reserve container) is 218 inches (or 18.2 feet).
Exactly how much suspension line is currently missing from the pink parachute?
955 ¾ inches (or 79.6 feet).
 
MrShutter45 said:
I'm not really sure what it is but, like a cop when he has a gut feeling about something, I feel there is a missed piece of evidence surrounding the back of the plane that is possibly right in front of us, hard to explain, just feel something is wrong back there!
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I figure there have to be things people have overlooked, not just about the back of the plane but about the whole case. This is basically why I've been interested in the case. I've learned a lot doing research and analysis on various things as a result. The plane, the airstair, the weather, the air defense system, the hydraulogy. For example, there has been some "evidence" about the airstair and the flight path that was missed although right in front of us. The problem is to look very closely and to understand what you see.
 
hominid said:
I figure there have to be things people have overlooked, not just about the back of the plane but about the whole case. This is basically why I've been interested in the case. I've learned about a lot of things doing research and analysis on various things as a result. The plane, the airstair, the weather, the air defense system, the hydraulogy. And, yes, there have been some evidence about the airstair and the flight path that was missed although right in front of us. The problem is to look very closely and understand what you see.
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Has NORAD ever been questioned about this case, I'm sure they were tracking the plane?
 
MrShutter45 said:
Has NORAD ever been questioned about this case, I'm sure they were tracking the plane?
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Predecessor of NORAD is the source of the data from which the FBI provided plot was made. I've communicated with one of the weapons directors (controllers) that was off duty that night, so he only heard about it. Also, there is some data on the net about how they and the systems worked. They didn't record the flight path, but they could record the source data from which flight path could be computed.

The organization that was responsible for such computations was separate, the 84th radar evaluation squadron (RADES). They had and still have a detachment at McChord. It's almost certain they did the computation and the hand plotting. If not them, it might have been someone who was studying to join the RADES or had been assigned to them before. They would have used a computer the same as the ones used by the people who were watching the flight in process, Direction Center 12 at McChord. It's also likely that they used one of the computers at DC12.

Nothing has slipped out through official channels.
 
MrShutter45 said:
.... he cut almost 80 feet of cord I believe

Five cords on the pink parachute had cut lines:
Line #7 had 186 ¾ inches of cord removed
Line #11 had 169 ¾ inches of cord removed
Line #12 had 169 inches of cord removed
Line #15 had 213 inches of cord removed
Line #22 had 217 ¼ inches of cord removed
The length of an uncut cord (including the double-sewn cord used to tie into the cross-connector, the bundle of cords located between the butterfly snap-hook rings in the reserve container) is 218 inches (or 18.2 feet).
Exactly how much suspension line is currently missing from the pink parachute?
955 ¾ inches (or 79.6 feet).
Click to expand...

I didn't follow the cord discussion on the darkzone, probably years ago. I think Ckret was still around. If I remember right, I think all of the cut cord was accounted for. I think it was figured out how much was used to wrap around the money bag and how much to tie it on, etc. Georger will recall. Have you found the dz info?
 
hominid said:
I didn't follow the cord discussion on the darkzone, probably years ago. I think Ckret was still around. If I remember right, I think all of the cut cord was accounted for. I think it was figured out how much was used to wrap around the money bag and how much to tie it on, etc. Georger will recall. Have you found the dz info?
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I'm sure the amount was checked, but who's to say when it was all used? let me ask another wild question, how easy would a floor panel come up in the bathroom, if he knew about the structure? he spent a lot of time in there?

I know I have some wacky out of the box type theories, but, you never know unless ya ask :blushing:

what DZ info are you referring to?
 
MrShutter45 said:
I'm sure the amount was checked, but who's to say when it was all used? let me ask another wild question, how easy would a floor panel come up in the bathroom, if he knew about the structure? he spent a lot of time in there?
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I don't know about floor. In general, all panels were fairly easy to remove. Walls, ceiling. Definitely would have been feasible for something to be hidden in there beforehand, but the perp or an accomplice would have had to do it as the plane was heading to the northwest. I'm sure it would have been searched after the hijacking.

what DZ info are you referring to?
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The info about how much cord was cut off the chute and where it got used. I just looked, and I didn't find it. Was your info from citizensleuths?
 
hominid said:
I don't know about floor. In general, all panels were fairly easy to remove. Walls, ceiling. Definitely would have been feasible for something to be hidden in there beforehand, but the perp or an accomplice would have had to do it as the plane was heading to the northwest. I'm sure it would have been searched after the hijacking.



The info about how much cord was cut off the chute and where it got used. I just looked, and I didn't find it. Was your info from citizensleuths?
Click to expand...

yes that is were I got the information from.
 
hominid said:
I didn't follow the cord discussion on the darkzone, probably years ago. I think Ckret was still around. If I remember right, I think all of the cut cord was accounted for. I think it was figured out how much was used to wrap around the money bag and how much to tie it on, etc. Georger will recall. Have you found the dz info?
Click to expand...

Yes I recall that discussion on DZ. I also think all of the cord as
accounted for in that discussion, more-or-less, but there was an element
of uncertainty on everyone's part, Ckret included, as I recall this.

The whole discussion, as I followed it, seemed to end up in the air?

Today we have Tom's CS site and Carol's itemisation of the cord cuts &
lengths as she actually measured the lines at the Seattle office. Mr.
Shutter, is it Carol's numbers you are using? I was very impressed when I
read Carol's itemisation on Tom's site, and I sat here smiling as I read her
tabulation - it seems very complete, accurate, and her's may supercede
anything ever discussed on this issue at Darkzone.

Is it Carol's numbers you are using, Mr Shutter? It seems to me it is,
but I want to make sure? If not where are getting your numbers?

If the length is anything close to what you cited then the number
surprises me also (Carol's figures surprised me) so there must be
some reason why so much cord was cut, and it has to be accounted for ?
Nobody to my knowledge raised a red flag about the total length when it
was discussed on DZ, (unless I was asleep). Its a valid issue imo.
 
MrShutter45 said:
I'm sure the amount was checked, but who's to say when it was all used? let me ask another wild question, how easy would a floor panel come up in the bathroom, if he knew about the structure? he spent a lot of time in there?

I know I have some wacky out of the box type theories, but, you never know unless ya ask :blushing:

what DZ info are you referring to?
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I dont see these issues as wacky at all so long as there is objective
treatment of them. No more wacky that Cooper asking for the parameters
he asked for, in the first place.

This guy had thought this out to some extent. I have always been half convinced that he sought
out a flight like 305 and once found (by the new schedules released in August or something) he
then targeted that flight seeing an opportunity. And he definately as good at selecting and
manipulating the right people, once the hijacking was underway, and he
did this very quickly without error. A Manager?
 
The info about how much cord was cut off the chute and where it got used. I just looked, and I didn't find it. Was your info from citizensleuths?[/quote]

Its near the end under Gallery, then Pink Parachute gallery, after all the
photos there is a long text with Carol's measurements. Im really impressed
by what she did!
 
MrShutter45 said:
yes that is were I got the information from.
Click to expand...


Good for you! :woohoo:

When I first saw her work I sat here stunned a bit, thinking it was 100x better than the whole
discussion on DZ. I mean she actually drug everything out and measure cord by cord etc etc etc.
Her professional graphic art work at UC shows that kind of attention to detail. I can only smile and
applaud! Its probably the most accurate data anyone will ever have on this -
 
georger said:
The info about how much cord was cut off the chute and where it got used. I just looked, and I didn't find it. Was your info from citizensleuths?
Click to expand...

Its near the end under Gallery, then Pink Parachute gallery, after all the
photos there is a long text with Carol's measurements. Im really impressed
by what she did![/QUOTE]

Yes, this is where I got my information from, anyway you look at it, this is a lot of cord.
 
georger said:
:seeya: Hi all - Cooper thread continues . . .

Mr Shutter, hope you found the link. I expect to be back around 10:30pm cdt tonight, so we can continue here.

Thanks!
Georger
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WELCOME to you all Georger, Mr Shutter and Hominid. Hope I didn't miss anyone else who is new.

Your discussion is extremely interesting and I'm going to have to read every word you guys write here. lol


PS: I see you've been a member for awhile Georger. It has been way too long since I've read on this thread.



Remembering tonight how dedicated Left Coast was to solving this case and how fortunate we were that he stumbled on Websleuths and with his dear friend both joined us, giving their theory and all that info. Bless him.
 
georger said:
Good for you!

When I first saw her work I sat here stunned a bit, thinking it was 100x better than the whole discussion on DZ. I mean she actually drug everything out and measure cord by cord etc etc etc.
Her professional graphic art work at UC shows that kind of attention to detail. I can only smile and applaud! Its probably the most accurate data anyone will ever have on this -
Click to expand...

I concur. I'm gonna try to find the DZ stuff on what was thought to have been used in tying up the bundle and tying it on. What would be left would then be available for things such as stair control.
 
Welcome back in Scandi. Please question anything you wish and state your own ideas too.
 
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