WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #3

georger · Jun 8, 2012

Niner said:
Regarding my input... :waitasec: I always love a mystery - and this sure is! You guys are talking about stuff I don't know about, sounds interesting - but a little over my head! :whoosh:

Sounds exactly what my Huz was doing - he "thinks" he saw Venus, but like Georger said - it was like a very small dot!

Yeah, eye witness descriptions aren't too reliable! Everyone sees something the other person doesn't!

So just waiting for "someone" - FBI? a relative finally talking? anyone!! :doh: to solve this mystery!!

The description has suffered from a convergence of problems which seem to multiply as time passes. The original group of witnesses the FBI used, according to Agent Carr, seemed to have consensus. There was a first wanted poster late in 71, then a second in the Spring of 72 (the one used to this day), but then a third? Then an alleged fourth!? Then others over time from non-official sources and a few individuals who had been on the flight supposedly; one always wonders about the sources of these things? Then a poster from Flo Schafner using a forensic artist from the SF Police Dept (I think) ? Then people pushing candidates attacking the original FBI description. All the while the FBI never claimed their description released included "all" details, which is understandable.

Maybe some day the Smithsonian or NOVA will issue a comprehensive
unofficial-offical statement.

People expected Geof Gray's book would straighten some of these matters out. It didn't,
which was a surprise and I think a disappointment given all of the hoopla which attended
the book/symposium/promotional.

There does seem to be one universal in all of this. You can almost count on a challenge to
the original FBI description as concomitant with anyone forwarding a candidate, any more.
That assumes considerable latitude (and failing) in the FBI's original description. It is likewise
interesting that nobody literally, FBI or otherwise, has ever speculated or announced a
haplotype for DB Cooper. Carol Abraczinskas on the Kaye Cs Team came as close as anyone
when she suggested Cooper had to have been from certain regions in Canada, due to his use
of specific phraseology, according to Ms. Abraczinskas. Whatever genetic info the FBI has,
Cooper ethnicity remains a mystery ... "olive skin" notwithstanding.

What do you think?

MrShutter45 · Jun 8, 2012

georger said:
as per Farflung (attached), does your sim have this (data output for it) ?

none of my instruments are working on the engineers panel with my version, I will be loading up the dreamfleet 727 this weekend, the upgrade will have those gauges working.

Is this in reference to lowering the stairs in flight? if so I can not do it on the models I have now, I don't know if I will be able to with the new software. I tried taking off with the stairs down and the plane refused to lift :floorlaugh:

Then I tried a few seconds after take off the plane slammed downward violently :banghead: might not be a test we can try with the simulator :waitasec:

hominid · Jun 8, 2012

MrShutter45 said:
Thanks for checking! put some of the 100 up that you have, I'm interested to see how close this sim will be, as they state it's matched!

I noticed that the discription of that package you are thinking of getting says that using electronic indicators vice the old electromechanical meters/gauges s one of the few things they do that is not like the old 727s. I'd guess it won't look like the old stuff but should still function the same.

Also, one thing that the '68 vintage TWA -31s had that N467US didn't have is a thing called KIFIS. K for Koffman, the mfr. This thing took several inputs and produced a few items of data. Specifically, it took indicated airspeed, pressure altitude and "total" (indicated) outside air temperature (and maybe mach nbr) and produced true airspeed and true outside air temperature (OAT). If you see true airspeed (TAS) or OAT on a guage, you should ignore these if you're trying to fly like N467US was flown.

I'll get some screen shots out of may manual and post them. In the mean time here are some flight instrument panels I've verified to be from a -100 series 727. The climb rate and altitude meters are the ones at the FE console. I can post higher resolution if you need it.

hominid · Jun 8, 2012

MrShutter45 said:
....Is this in reference to lowering the stairs in flight? if so I can not do it on the models I have now, I don't know if I will be able to with the new software. I tried taking off with the stairs down and the plane refused to lift.

Then I tried a few seconds after take off the plane slammed downward violently might not be a test we can try with the simulator

Should the software allow you to do things other than what the flight crew can do? It should take someone "in back" to lower the stairs. Slamming downward might be realistic. After the hijacking modifications to the stair system automatically applied hydraulic power to the stair if the control handle was set to "open." Quickly and fully dropping the stair might pitch the tail up dramatically. This is part of the danger that NWA wanted to avoid by giving flight 305 a special procedure for dropping the stair. The other major danger would have been the stair locked all the way down when they wanted to land but didn't know if the guy was still back there ready to blow them up.

MrShutter45 · Jun 8, 2012

hominid said:
I noticed that the discription of that package you are thinking of getting says that using electronic indicators vice the old electromechanical meters/gauges s one of the few things they do that is not like the old 727s. I'd guess it won't look like the old stuff but should still function the same.

Also, one thing that the '68 vintage TWA -31s had that N467US didn't have is a thing called KIFIS. K for Koffman, the mfr. This thing took several inputs and produced a few items of data. Specifically, it took indicated airspeed, pressure altitude and "total" (indicated) outside air temperature (and maybe mach nbr) and produced true airspeed and true outside air temperature (OAT). If you see true airspeed (TAS) or OAT on a guage, you should ignore these if you're trying to fly like N467US was flown.

I'll get some screen shots out of may manual and post them. In the mean time here are some flight instrument panels I've verified to be from a -100 series 727. The climb rate and altitude meters are the ones at the FE console. I can post higher resolution if you need it.

Nice pics, I saved them for reference, here is the manual that comes with the software, it give very good details on the instrument panel, I would like you input on this software and panel.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/37257567/727-Manual

hominid · Jun 8, 2012

MrShutter45 said:
Nice pics, I saved them for reference, here is the manual that comes with the software, it give very good details on the instrument panel, I would like you input on this software and panel.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/37257567/727-Manual

I'll take a look. Later....

MrShutter45 · Jun 8, 2012

This program seems to go into details to great lengths, you can do a quick start or manual, complete run down on starting a 727

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqNYtJoukqE

MrShutter45 · Jun 8, 2012

hominid said:
Should the software allow you to do things other than what the flight crew can do? It should take someone "in back" to lower the stairs. Slamming downward might be realistic. After the hijacking modifications to the stair system automatically applied hydraulic power to the stair if the control handle was set to "open." Quickly and fully dropping the stair might pitch the tail up dramatically. This is part of the danger that NWA wanted to avoid by giving flight 305 a special procedure for dropping the stair. The other major danger would have been the stair locked all the way down when they wanted to land but didn't know if the guy was still back there ready to blow them up.

It might be possible with this software, mine only has a cockpit view, I'll check and see if this is like Captainsims software, you have access to the entire plane and lowering the stairs from inside vs a keyboard action on mine that lowers the stairs. we should learn something from this experience.

Niner · Jun 8, 2012

georger said:
The description has suffered from a convergence of problems which seem to multiply as time passes. The original group of witnesses the FBI used, according to Agent Carr, seemed to have consensus. There was a first wanted poster late in 71, then a second in the Spring of 72 (the one used to this day), but then a third? Then an alleged fourth!? Then others over time from non-official sources and a few individuals who had been on the flight supposedly; one always wonders about the sources of these things? Then a poster from Flo Schafner using a forensic artist from the SF Police Dept (I think) ? Then people pushing candidates attacking the original FBI description. All the while the FBI never claimed their description released included "all" details, which is understandable.

Maybe some day the Smithsonian or NOVA will issue a comprehensive
unofficial-offical statement.

re bold - no kidding! I think I have seen about 3 of them - there was a link from one of the "oldie" threads here on Cooper. I think they should put ALL the sketches as a composite drawing and see what they get! :banghead:
If you haven't already read this one:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49742&highlight=Cooper

A lot of great discussion went on that one! And the beginning of this one.

here's another one on Cooper, which isn't locked - personally haven't read it yet - I don't think! LOL!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94237&highlight=Cooper

okay I just scanned thru that last one and saw a map of the drop zone per the poster. I think MrShutter is planning on flying "his plane" and thought that might be of interest to you!

georger said:
People expected Geof Gray's book would straighten some of these matters out. It didn't, which was a surprise and I think a disappointment given all of the hoopla which attended the book/symposium/promotional.

I actually haven't read any books on the case - just here at Websleuths and the newspaper from that time. I'll go look in my library and see if any of them are available! Thanks for the idea! :yesss:

georger said:
There does seem to be one universal in all of this. You can almost count on a challenge to the original FBI description as concomitant with anyone forwarding a candidate, any more. That assumes considerable latitude (and failing) in the FBI's original description. It is likewise
interesting that nobody literally, FBI or otherwise, has ever speculated or announced a haplotype for DB Cooper. Carol Abraczinskas on the Kaye Cs Team came as close as anyone when she suggested Cooper had to have been from certain regions in Canada, due to his use of specific phraseology, according to Ms. Abraczinskas. Whatever genetic info the FBI has,
Cooper ethnicity remains a mystery ... "olive skin" notwithstanding.

I've never heard of Carol Abraczinskas (Lithiuanian? or Latvian?) :dunno: Does she have a book out or ?? and I have heard about the "olive skin"... :waitasec:

georger said:
What do you think?

I believe that LeftCoast and RightCoast were close to solving "who" D.B. Cooper is/was. They had some pretty good "suspects" - have you read the past threads here? It was a good discussion, if you have a chance to read the links I posted ^^

:seeya:

Niner · Jun 8, 2012

MrShutter45 said:
none of my instruments are working on the engineers panel with my version, I will be loading up the dreamfleet 727 this weekend, the upgrade will have those gauges working.

Is this in reference to lowering the stairs in flight? if so I can not do it on the models I have now, I don't know if I will be able to with the new software. I tried taking off with the stairs down and the plane refused to lift :floorlaugh:

Then I tried a few seconds after take off the plane slammed downward violently :banghead: might not be a test we can try with the simulator :waitasec:

Hey! Better than being in a "real life" plane!! :what:

Niner · Jun 8, 2012

Here's an interesting quote from another Cooper thread I found

KarlK said:
It is a common misconception that the 727 was unique in having "airstairs" under its tail. There were in fact three types of commercial jetliner operated by airlines in the US at the time that were so equipped. Apart from the 727, the DC-9 and the Caravelle (flown by United Airlines) also had them. It was in fact the French-made Caravelles purchased by United Airlines that had introduced the concept here in the early 60's. Other airlines, noticing that United made extensive -and efficient- use of this feature, asked Douglas and Boeing if they could incorporate it to their rear-engined airliners. This ramp could be configured to load cargo as well as passengers and/or service personnel from the rear.

The reason for this was that back in those pre-CRJ days it was those relatively large aircraft that served small and often modestly equipped regional airports. There was a need for speedy de-planing and boarding of passengers and service staff for quicker turnarounds, instead of waiting for mobile stairways (if present) to be towed around. Sometimes mobile stairways would be used so that cleaning staff could enter using the aft airstairs at begin servicing the plane from the rear while passengers were exiting from the side. Obviously it was also possible to load new passengers from the rear while those from the incoming flight exited the sides, significantly reducing turnaround time. The advent of small jetliners -such as the ubiquitous CRJ- and jetways specifically designed for them meant that rear airstairs were not necessary anymore.

But there's more. There may have been another reason for having this feature implemented at the time.

Interestingly the original purpose of those airstairs on the Caravelle had nothing to do with airline passengers. In the late 1950's at the height of the cold war the French government had required of jet airliner designers that they engineer aircraft that could be quickly converted to military use, mostly as troop and supplies transports or tactical airlift. The aft airstairs were thus designed so as to be able to open in flight to facilitate supplies drops and paratrooper ops. The US government has never admitted that it had a similar requirement for 727's and DC-9's but the fact that on those models the aft stairs could be lowered in flight just like the Caravelle's -despite obvious safety issues- is a pretty strong indication that the same purpose was intended. Thankfully, the flying public did not know about this feature.

But "Dan Cooper" did. In my opinion that is another indication that he probably had a military background and a strong interest in aviation that went far beyond that of even the most enthusiastic air traveler.

link at: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155857&highlight=Cooper&page=2

Thought maybe MrShutter would be interested in the aft airstairs!

georger · Jun 9, 2012

MrShutter45 said:
none of my instruments are working on the engineers panel with my version, I will be loading up the dreamfleet 727 this weekend, the upgrade will have those gauges working.

Is this in reference to lowering the stairs in flight? if so I can not do it on the models I have now, I don't know if I will be able to with the new software. I tried taking off with the stairs down and the plane refused to lift :floorlaugh:

Then I tried a few seconds after take off the plane slammed downward violently :banghead: might not be a test we can try with the simulator :waitasec:

Seems it doesnt want the stairs down in flight mode - funny, well not if thats what a person
wants/needs... :banghead:. Write the author of the ware and ask him/her if they ever heard of the
DB Cooper case? Which brings up another question: could NWA or AF model this back in '71?
Soderlind would have known ?

georger · Jun 9, 2012

hominid said:
Should the software allow you to do things other than what the flight crew can do? It should take someone "in back" to lower the stairs. Slamming downward might be realistic. After the hijacking modifications to the stair system automatically applied hydraulic power to the stair if the control handle was set to "open." Quickly and fully dropping the stair might pitch the tail up dramatically. This is part of the danger that NWA wanted to avoid by giving flight 305 a special procedure for dropping the stair. The other major danger would have been the stair locked all the way down when they wanted to land but didn't know if the guy was still back there ready to blow them up.

good points!

georger · Jun 9, 2012

Niner said:
re bold - no kidding! I think I have seen about 3 of them - there was a link from one of the "oldie" threads here on Cooper. I think they should put ALL the sketches as a composite drawing and see what they get! :banghead:
If you haven't already read this one:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49742&highlight=Cooper

A lot of great discussion went on that one! And the beginning of this one.

here's another one on Cooper, which isn't locked - personally haven't read it yet - I don't think! LOL!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94237&highlight=Cooper

okay I just scanned thru that last one and saw a map of the drop zone per the poster. I think MrShutter is planning on flying "his plane" and thought that might be of interest to you!

I actually haven't read any books on the case - just here at Websleuths and the newspaper from that time. I'll go look in my library and see if any of them are available! Thanks for the idea! :yesss:

I've never heard of Carol Abraczinskas (Lithiuanian? or Latvian?) :dunno: Does she have a book out or ?? and I have heard about the "olive skin"... :waitasec:

I believe that LeftCoast and RightCoast were close to solving "who" D.B. Cooper is/was. They had some pretty good "suspects" - have you read the past threads here? It was a good discussion, if you have a chance to read the links I posted ^^

:seeya:

Niner, thanks for the links. I will review all of that if I havent already.
Try this link to the Tom Kaye CS team formed under Agent Larry Carr.
http://www.citizensleuths.com/
Lots of material there you may like.

hominid · Jun 9, 2012

MrShutter45 said:
...here is the manual that comes with the software, it give very good details on the instrument panel, I would like you input on this software and panel.

First: I see from the manual that the electronic instruments is just an option that you don't have to use. That's good.

2nd: I examined the panels in the manual.

a. The pilot panel has instruments in pretty much the same places, but they don't look like the ones on the old 727s.

b. The engine panel is close to the same. My pic show the EPR guages at the tops of the columns, but the guages all look similar.

c. My radio panel looks totally different. I'll attach a copy.

d. The door annunciator panel at the FE station is like the -200 series rather than the -100 series. The aft airstair system was modified over the years to be like on the -200s. So what's in the simulator is probably there because -100s were that way in later years. On the original -100s there was only one AFT AIRSTAIR light. It was 2nd from the top in the first column. It was amber as were all "caution" indicators, as opposed to red "danger" indicators. If the light came on it meant the stair is not locked UP and the control handle is not in the UP detent.

Most of the FE panel looks pretty much the same.

I'm attaching a pic of the way the VSIs were, which is different from what the simulator shows. Notice the max was 6k ft/min. The climb rate meters at the FE console were the same thing, except with 2k ft/min max. In normal flights, the cabin pressurization would prevent the pressure in the plane from changing as fast as the outside pressure (for passenger comfort/health).

hominid · Jun 9, 2012

Here's some illustrations of instruments in 1968 TWA -100 series 727s.

MrShutter45 · Jun 9, 2012

Thanks Hominid, all in all I think it is pretty close to what I am looking for, what ticks me off is the way they advertise about the accuracy of the cockpit stating " brought to life with reference to not 1, but 3 different 727 flight manuals and checked a verified by two 727 pilots " I don't think there is a program that will nail it down completely.

gotta work a little today and I'm hoping to upload this program tonite and start the learning curve and take her up for a test flight.

Then again maybe it's just not as accurate as the year of the 727 we are looking and was hoping for?

MrShutter45 · Jun 9, 2012

Niner said:
Hey! Better than being in a "real life" plane!! :what:

I would have been dead long ago with the stunts I have pulled with the simulator :rocker: what I am trying to accomplish is to re fly the flight path and see how close the dropzone is to what we and the FBI have concluded or where the plane actually is after 36 minutes of flight by recreating the steps along the flight path just as 305 did.

my first test flight put the plane on the North edges of Vancouver, but I didn't have the correct weather nor did I follow the stages in altitude as Hominid pointed out, so I'm hoping to pin point as much as possible so I can be as close as I can to actually events of that nite.

MrShutter45 · Jun 9, 2012

I have the worse luck at anything I get, downloaded the Dreamfleet and I'm getting error's! since it's the weekend nobody is alive at Flight1 for assistance, If I can not resolve the issue's, I'll have to wait until Monday! :jail:

hominid · Jun 9, 2012

MrShutter45 said:
Thanks Hominid, all in all I think it is pretty close to what I am looking for, what ticks me off is the way they advertise about the accuracy of the cockpit stating " brought to life with reference to not 1, but 3 different 727 flight manuals and checked a verified by two 727 pilots " I don't think there is a program that will nail it down completely.

.....Then again maybe it's just not as accurate as the year of the 727 we are looking and was hoping for?

Don't hold it against them. Airlines constantly revised their flight manuals as they revised their planes. And they rigidly controlled custody of them. They ended up having and destroying most all ever produced. Only a very small number slipped out, and over a lot of years--each one updated to the time it escaped. I do think the vast majority of what that package shows is close to the old -100s. The specific instuments mostly look a little different but are in the same places and perform basically the same. As to those pilots: The pilots that flew those early ones would be over 70 years old now.

I noticed a guage for outside air temp or true airspeed. They wouldn't affect how the plane flies. Their presence just relieved the FE of some computation work.

WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #3

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