Israel Keyes: General Discussion

Bullshark said:

I find it interesting that IK's mom and siblings are part of a religious cult the Church of Wells outside Lufkin, Texas in Wells, Texas

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Hello Bullshark, if I am remembering correctly he has 1 brother, 3 sisters and his Mom that belong to this church....Personally I do not know about it being called a cult, I know they must live much like the Amish because where they was located became to populated by subdivisions, therefore they sought out another isolated location and that being in Wells Texas, I'm sure they live off the land since on the church website, the 2 sisters are doing well making home-made soap of various scents, personally I would not call it a cult, I have read the website and some beliefs are such as mine as far as being saved and being baptized but from there I feel like they have similar beliefs of the Amish in not partaking in things of the world, keeping to themselves, no outside communication and etc.

But Keyes has 3 brothers that seem like really nice men...<modsnip>

We know what we know about IK from what told to his interigators and from that, what they chose to disclose. He has painted a picture of himself as a serial killer who kiled for the thrill of it but was so cunning that even with all the "hints" he gave, most of his kills will never be figured out.

I am suggesting a "revisionist" theory. I suspect that the Curriers were his first and they were some kind of finacial scam; not a thrill kill at all. SK was pretty much a rape but he was trying to make some money off of it (and botched the job pretty badly; impulsive, amateur stuff).

From what I can see, from the time he got out of the army in 2001 and 9/06 when he moved to Alaska, he had a steady job, he did the sort of modest traveling that someone with steady work in the building trades could be expected to afford and he did not attract any attention as having a standard of living that exceeded his income. Conclusion: he was not engaging in significant property crime activity. Was he going around killing random people? We have no evidence that he did but there are plenty of murdered/missing people that might or might not fit.

Beginning 9/06, he moves to Alaska and everything changes. He starts travelling all over the lower 48 as well as foreign holliday destinations. He is spending so little time in Alaska that there is no way he could build up a "contracting" business and earn enough to support such travel. He was off commiting crimes (or spending his ill gotten gains on pleasure travel) and he was only going back to Alaska to "lay low" and perhaps do enough self employment to launder his money.

Robbing banks is a likely activity. He may have figured out that bank robbery is pretty risky and his luck would run out eventually. Perhaps he was looking for other angles. The Curriers may have been an extortion attempt; perhaps one of them was intened to be a hostage while the other embezzeled from an employer or looted their own bank account. These kinds of capers usually don't involve killing anyone. Something went wrong.

I think he was running short of money, afraid that he might be linked to the Curriers and more than a little desparate. SK may have been a chance to act on a fantasy he had always had while he prepared to live on the lam. He figured out that if got arrested and was facing Life or the DP, he would try to convince LE that he was a big time Serial Killer rather that a second rate bank robber/rapist with a few murder charges to back them up. . Playing games with the Alaska DA's seemed a lot more fun than sitting in a jail cell waiting for a chance to snuff himself before he was shipped off the Death Row.

:seeya: Sleuthing IK's family and friends through their personal social media pages is not allowed. Discussing IK's background, i.e., childhood, family life, and the environment in which he was raised, is allowed IF the information is gleaned through MSM or the FBI. I've even set up a thread for that purpose.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220893"]ISRAEL KEYES: Profile and Background - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

hey, kemo,

I had some similar thoughts so I listened to all of the interviews (incl. the audio-only ones) many times over until the shock value was gone and I could pay attention to the cadence of his voice around certain kinds of information.

I think there is some obfuscation/misdirection as well, but I do think there were earlier murders.

here's what I doubt:

-- the whole long story about lying in wait and shooting the couple, then also the trooper. Something is "off" about it. He told that story in the first interview after he educated himself about federal death penalty qualification. Violence against LE/judges/politicians is a huge factor in death penalty recommendations. He also threw in a gratuitous reference to his "white supremacist roots. I totally don't buy it. At no time did he show any overt or suppressed racism nor hostility toward LE. I think he made up the whole cop incident.

-- something is "off" about the Currier murder, as well. I even though of murder for hire. I am very doubtful about the "random" claim. I do believe he compulsively breaks and enters and burglarizes. I wondered if he had broken into their cabin (they had one in the woods upstate) either a few days before or in 2011 and saw their address. He stressed that the Curriers were random, picked for the layout of their house only after he tried for a single guy in a parking lot. It seemed to mean a bit too much to him that they be seen as random rather than stalked/targeted, perhaps because he did not want to be lumped in with peeping tom/stalker types.

-- the two murders of women we know about included rape/strangulation. but both of the men he admitted to killing put up a fight and he hit one over the head and shot the other, before he had meant to kill them. So I was very curious about whether he *really* had ever targeted/killed a man, not as part of a couple.

-- I believe he killed someone in 2011 and buried the body in upstate NY. This has to do with the kill-bank robbery sequence pattern I found believable and substantiated at least in the SK case. In addition, his voice when he says there is a body in NY, after a very very long pause and a certain reluctant mouth-noise he makes right before giving up something major. He sounds the same way as when he has told verified stories, including the gun location, arson, and tupper lake bank robbery.

-- I find an early and unbroken history of house break-ins, robberies, and arson very believable. Because of this, and the intensity of the murders we do have confirmation of, I think there were other murders prior. But I think they might have had some shame associated with them. He really really does not want to give details, and not just for strategic/negotiating reasons, imo. Perhaps they were prostitutes, drug addicts, homeless -- sort of tawdry, un-daring murders.

-- Aside from the NY body, none of the other 4-7 murders the FBI believes he committed were originally revealed by him on any publicly released interview. Nor was the "Ted Bundy" admiration, the claim he could not wait to get out of the army to kill, or the narrative of the 1998 rape. All of that info is second-hand, from LE, but obviously based on interviews because none of it came from independent physical or eyewitness evidence. The thing is, I would really like to hear his actual words, and how the interview was going, because I tend to doubt the way LE frames the events (based on their statements to the media versus when you listen to the full interviews).

-- Details of the "Washington murders" and that there was one couple and 2 separate single-person murders, seem to originate not from his statements, but from some letters that prison officials took from his cell. Who this writing was intended for, and whether it was truthful or meant to misdirect, I am not sure. He seemed slightly amused when he said he should have realized they'd take the writing, whether this was wry defeat or totally disingenuous I couldn't tell.

kemo said:

We know what we know about IK from what told to his interigators and from that, what they chose to disclose. He has painted a picture of himself as a serial killer who kiled for the thrill of it but was so cunning that even with all the "hints" he gave, most of his kills will never be figured out.

I am suggesting a "revisionist" theory. I suspect that the Curriers were his first and they were some kind of finacial scam; not a thrill kill at all. SK was pretty much a rape but he was trying to make some money off of it (and botched the job pretty badly; impulsive, amateur stuff).

From what I can see, from the time he got out of the army in 2001 and 9/06 when he moved to Alaska, he had a steady job, he did the sort of modest traveling that someone with steady work in the building trades could be expected to afford and he did not attract any attention as having a standard of living that exceeded his income. Conclusion: he was not engaging in significant property crime activity. Was he going around killing random people? We have no evidence that he did but there are plenty of murdered/missing people that might or might not fit.

Beginning 9/06, he moves to Alaska and everything changes. He starts travelling all over the lower 48 as well as foreign holliday destinations. He is spending so little time in Alaska that there is no way he could build up a "contracting" business and earn enough to support such travel. He was off commiting crimes (or spending his ill gotten gains on pleasure travel) and he was only going back to Alaska to "lay low" and perhaps do enough self employment to launder his money.

Robbing banks is a likely activity. He may have figured out that bank robbery is pretty risky and his luck would run out eventually. Perhaps he was looking for other angles. The Curriers may have been an extortion attempt; perhaps one of them was intened to be a hostage while the other embezzeled from an employer or looted their own bank account. These kinds of capers usually don't involve killing anyone. Something went wrong.

I think he was running short of money, afraid that he might be linked to the Curriers and more than a little desparate. SK may have been a chance to act on a fantasy he had always had while he prepared to live on the lam. He figured out that if got arrested and was facing Life or the DP, he would try to convince LE that he was a big time Serial Killer rather that a second rate bank robber/rapist with a few murder charges to back them up. . Playing games with the Alaska DA's seemed a lot more fun than sitting in a jail cell waiting for a chance to snuff himself before he was shipped off the Death Row.

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Excellent post Kemo!!

Your post is very well thought out and you have raised many good points.

I do tend to differ in terms of my opinion though. As per the part of your quote that I bolded, I have to say that I thought that IK did an incredible amount of traveling in the years leading up to the Curriers' murder.

Maybe I've interpreted it incorrectly, but in 2007 he was in WA, AK, CA, WA, UT, WA, AK, IN, WA and back to AK. That doesn't count the drive up to AK through BC and the Yukon, for his move.

For 2008, it was AK, TX/LA/AL, WA, AK, UT, CA, AK, WA, ND, AZ, CA, WA, MA, WA, AK, HI, Mexico. I don't find this 'typical' travel for the average joe. How much would all of these flights cost?? And only a couple of months later, it was off to CA again!

I really believe that IK had grown restless by then, perhaps 'stimulated' by his need to kill.

I still believe that he killed more than 11 people. I think he was keeping his cards close to his chest as he wanted to have something to negotiate with. Without undisclosed information, he had no power.

Let's face it, these intelligent serial killers are all about power.

JMO.

Snoopster,

Perhaps my post wasn't clear. My point was that up until he went to Alaska in 9/06, IK did not appear to have unaccounted for income but once he moved to Alaska the "odd" travels began. I was speculating that thats when his serious Life of Crime began.

Cynar,

You bring up some interesting points.

First, who is the second male he claims to have killed (other than Currier)?

I think everything he told the Alaska investigators or wrote down while in his cell, was essentially self serving. It all wasn't necessarily a lie; I think he was trying to create a "legend" for himself that would serve his interests somehow. It wouldn't surprise me if did have other kills but, if he did, they were not random "thrill kills" but motivated by rape, property gain, or covering up another crime.

I do agree that the detail he gave about the 2011 East Coast killing gives it a little more credibility than other claims. I'm not sure what to make of it.

Claiming a lot of random kills seems like an easy way to build up one's "stature" as a big time Serial Killer. Plenty of disappearances and unsolved murders across the country could be his but there is really no way to rule most of them in or out.

The one thing that I can't figure out is why he would admit/claim to have raped Mrs. Currier. She was 55 and not very attractive. Most Serial Killers deny or play down rapes even when they confess to the murders. Rapist, particularly rapist who target older women or children, are not looked kindly upon in prison.

Two things we may hear more about is further details of the Currier case and the mystery teenager who he claims to have raped in Maupin, Or in 1998. If it happened, the might come forward or girls who were high school age in that area in 1998 just wouldn't be that hard to track down. If that rape really happened, it greatly enhances his credbility about other crimes.

kemo said:

The one thing that I can't figure out is why he would admit/claim to have raped Mrs. Currier. She was 55 and not very attractive.

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I don't think your evaluation of her appearance was necessary or relevant -- rape isn't about sex or sexuality, it's about power and domination, so things like attractiveness and age are often secondary considerations (if at all).

I also always wonder if IK is full of it in some of his interviews and "claims" and then his abrupt suicide and his weird suicide note that he left to get drenched in his own blood,, imo pseudo "deep" attempt at some deep weird secretive BS that obviously doesn't reveal anything, just meh, also he seems to bring up his daughter so much in interviews as a bargaining chip almost (I really feel bad for this girl and hope she gets a new identity or something and lives a normal life) yet says nothing to her in his note (unless there is another undisclosed part). Ugh, that's the part that is so frustrating is that what if it's all made up except Sam and the Curriers or IDK. I guess it seems if the FBI released so much (not really..., wonder what else) they have corroborated and backed up some of his "claims". This whole thing is bizzare really and I feel so bad for those who came across him.

northxnorthwest said:

I also always wonder if IK is full of it in some of his interviews and "claims" and then his abrupt suicide and his weird suicide note that he left to get drenched in his own blood,, imo pseudo "deep" attempt at some deep weird secretive BS that obviously doesn't reveal anything, just meh, also he seems to bring up his daughter so much in interviews as a bargaining chip almost (I really feel bad for this girl and hope she gets a new identity or something and lives a normal life) yet says nothing to her in his note (unless there is another undisclosed part). Ugh, that's the part that is so frustrating is that what if it's all made up except Sam and the Curriers or IDK. I guess it seems if the FBI released so much (not really..., wonder what else) they have corroborated and backed up some of his "claims". This whole thing is bizzare really and I feel so bad for those who came across him.

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northnorthwest, some folks would interpret Keyes suicide note as weird, while others may see it in a different light. Or in Israel Keyes case, darkness. IK, imo, was a hybrid predator; an anomaly. In R. Ramirez; night stalker's words, IK was beyond good & evil, and we are not expected to truly understand him.

I am torn on the unique and unusual strategy that the FBI is taking in the IK investigation. This is the first time that I can remember where the FBI has shared a specific timeline, of a serial killer's past with the public, after their death. It would be naive to think that all evidence and info of the IK investigation has been released to the public. If successful, this semi-transparency strategy of asking for the public's help will be utilized more often by the FBI in the future, imo..

An aware American public is a very valuable resource in missing/murdered person's investigations. Combined with FBI VICAP and CODIS, these tools can defeat jurisdictional linkage blindness.

Folks that are skeptical as to Israel Keyes' partial confession of his unknown victim total and dark past should read 'Between Good & Evil', as well as the bio of Roger L. Depue; retired FBI BAU, imo...
The Academy think tank founded by RLD is an excellent resource for info. The members have been very helpful and courteous to me when contacted, on more than a few occasions..

http://criminalminds.wikia.com/wiki/Roger_L._Depue
In this first-person account of becoming the FBI&#8217;s top serial-killer hunter and a member of a religious order in an attempt to discern the true nature of good and evil, Roger L. Depue searches for an understanding of how evil develops.

Between Good and Evil is Depue&#8217;s look back at a life spent apprehending criminals, especially serial killers, first as a small-town police chief, then an FBI-SWAT team member, Behavioral Sciences Unit chief, and a developer of revolutionary law enforcement programs.

The book also examines Depue&#8217;s experience studying with the Brothers of the Missionaries of the Holy Apostles in an attempt to discover why a good person like his wife, whom he had lost to cancer, is allowed to die while monstrous criminals get to live.

Following his time in the clergy, Depue returned to law-enforcement and today heads one of the world&#8217;s most elite think tanks; 'The Academy'..

Between Good and Evil: A Master Profiler's Hunt for Society's Most Violent Predators
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/between-good-and-evil-roger-l-depue/1100306687?ean=9781594831317

kemo said:

Cynar,

You bring up some interesting points.

First, who is the second male he claims to have killed (other than Currier)?

I think everything he told the Alaska investigators or wrote down while in his cell, was essentially self serving. It all wasn't necessarily a lie; I think he was trying to create a "legend" for himself that would serve his interests somehow. It wouldn't surprise me if did have other kills but, if he did, they were not random "thrill kills" but motivated by rape, property gain, or covering up another crime.

I do agree that the detail he gave about the 2011 East Coast killing gives it a little more credibility than other claims. I'm not sure what to make of it.

Claiming a lot of random kills seems like an easy way to build up one's "stature" as a big time Serial Killer. Plenty of disappearances and unsolved murders across the country could be his but there is really no way to rule most of them in or out.

The one thing that I can't figure out is why he would admit/claim to have raped Mrs. Currier. She was 55 and not very attractive. Most Serial Killers deny or play down rapes even when they confess to the murders. Rapist, particularly rapist who target older women or children, are not looked kindly upon in prison.

Two things we may hear more about is further details of the Currier case and the mystery teenager who he claims to have raped in Maupin, Or in 1998. If it happened, the might come forward or girls who were high school age in that area in 1998 just wouldn't be that hard to track down. If that rape really happened, it greatly enhances his credbility about other crimes.

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hi, Kemo,

The second male was discussed in the 11/29 (final) video interview. This is when the FBI has the writing from his cell that refers to "a couple" in Washington. They are talking about gun use when IK says he never shot anyone besides Bill Currier. Feldis asks if everyone else was strangled. Ik agrees, but with slight hesitation. Asked to clarify he says he hit someone over the head to "take them out of action" but not meaning to kill. Feldis asks if that was the male of the couple and IK agrees.

Other males were only hinted at when Ik allegedly said that men who disappear are assumed to have just walked away from their lives. This interview statement, whenever it was, was not publicly released, so I can't evaluate its context or truth value.

If women were raped and then killed, what was the plan for men? Robbery, torture, what? In terms of the couples it seems like he intended the men to watch/listen while their mates were attacked, then to kill the women in front of the men and then kill the men. I'm not sure if he ever got to fulfill this fantasy, seems like the men spoiled the plan both times we know about. (If, in fact, there was a Washington couple at all.)

As for admitting to raping Mrs. Currier, and Samantha for that matter, I don't know why he went into non-provable detail that was so repellant. For example, Samantha's body, dismembered and submerged for a month, would not have forensically revealed, probably, rape or torture. Similarly, LC's body, even if still in the basement of the house, was apparently doused in drano and decomposing for a year.

So I, too, am curious why he would reveal sordid/humiliating details about sexual deviance. Could he not have claimed to accidentally or humanely kill both women without admitting to raping/beating them? In addition, although we don't have the full-detail confession tapes for either event, references to those in other interviews tells us that he described their psychological torture and terrorization as he kept them alive for hours. Given that those were the exact details he was so anxious about *ever* being revealed publicly, why not admit to the barest of provable facts about the murders? In fact, we have only his own words about what happened in the hours between the abductions and murders; none of it can be forensically substantiated or was witnessed. Was that level of detail provided to ensure the death penalty? Is it true? If we doubt some of his statements, why is it we would unquestioningly believe his account of the attacks, beyond what can be independently substantiated? If we believe his detailed accounts of the murders that actually occurred, don't we also have to believe other, unproven statements?

ALSO, p.s. -- every time I type a reply and go to post it, I get logged out and the writing disappears. So frustrating! How does one stay logged in??

cynar said:

ALSO, p.s. -- every time I type a reply and go to post it, I get logged out and the writing disappears. So frustrating! How does one stay logged in??

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Click the little box labelled "Remember me" beside your user name. That will keep you logged in. Also, just as a safeguard on big posts, I will sometimes copy it before I try to post it, just in case it goes *poof*.

Is there any reason to think that IK may have sexually assaulted males or wished to, but " hid " behind " needless "admissions of molesting females?

digndoodle said:

Hello Bullshark, if I am remembering correctly he has 1 brother, 3 sisters and his Mom that belong to this church....Personally I do not know about it being called a cult, I know they must live much like the Amish because where they was located became to populated by subdivisions, therefore they sought out another isolated location and that being in Wells Texas, I'm sure they live off the land since on the church website, the 2 sisters are doing well making home-made soap of various scents, personally I would not call it a cult, I have read the website and some beliefs are such as mine as far as being saved and being baptized but from there I feel like they have similar beliefs of the Amish in not partaking in things of the world, keeping to themselves, no outside communication and etc.

But Keyes has 3 brothers that seem like really nice men...<modsnip>

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There is a lot of controversy surrounding the church at this time. Two years ago they refused to call 911 for an infant and prayed over it instead and the baby eventually passed. Also at this time there are several families that have came to wells wanting to speak to their child who quit their life and joined this church. A few former members have shown up describing the cult like behavior and environment

Some current articles on church of wells

http://m.ktre.com/autojuice?targetU...is-church-of-wells-extreme-or-just-passionate

http://m.ktre.com/autojuice?targetU...eath-draws-attention-to-wells-religious-group

http://m.ktre.com/autojuice?targetU...rents-wells-church-leads-to-community-meeting

Bullshark said:

Some current articles on church of wells

http://m.ktre.com/autojuice?targetU...is-church-of-wells-extreme-or-just-passionate

http://m.ktre.com/autojuice?targetU...eath-draws-attention-to-wells-religious-group

http://m.ktre.com/autojuice?targetU...rents-wells-church-leads-to-community-meeting

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From the second article, this bit was either really funny ha ha, or kind of creepy.
Wondering if night time cycling helped introduce IK to spying on people and invading the privacy and the sanctity of home?


""They ride their bikes all throughout the night. They're strange."

IK spoke of wanting to protect his family and I wondered if IK might have given more info. if that `weakness`was exploited.
It certainly worked with Russell Williams..
bbm.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2010/10/20/15758676.html

&#8220;I don&#8217;t think you want the cold-blooded psychopath option,&#8221; the detective continued. &#8220;I&#8217;ve met guys who enjoyed the notoriety, who got off on having that label. (Paul) Bernardo being one. I don&#8217;t see that in you.&#8221;

More questioning. More silence. As the trap slowly snapped shut.

&#8220;It&#8217;s hard to believe this is happening,&#8221; the cornered Williams marvelled after another lengthy pause.

Because he believed he could outsmart them all.

It was the thought of his wife that finally broke him. He&#8217;d shown not an ounce of emotion as he raped and murdered two women, as he degraded them and tortured them, but he grew teary-eyed at the thought of his wife and her beautiful dream house ransacked with a police search warrant.

&#8220;I&#8217;m struggling with how upset my wife is right now. I&#8217;m concerned that they&#8217;re tearing apart my wife&#8217;s brand new house,&#8221; he said to gasps of disgust from friends and relatives of his victims``

Thanks for all the info. on the church, I had not seen any of the articles posted...I was only going by what the Elder stated or told when they were preparing for Keyes funeral and NO....this is not in anyway like my belief....I had to sit her and chuckle at my own self when I posted I didn't notice much difference in my beliefs...but this was only in 2 things....SORRY I truly had not read the other articles on the church

and dotr...I agree 100% this to me is just totally creepy..it is not funny to me..but so creepy and U could be correct, any person that chooses to ride a bicycle late at night would have no respect of anyone's privacy nor sanctity of home life at all and as the old saying goes "children learn what they see" perhaps this could have been a tradition in this home???

HELP NEEDED:
I am having problems also, it will not let me quote and when it does it comes up with a totally different person than who I am trying to post back too, also I had a huge problem logging in....so much so that I had to wait the 15 minutes because I put in my user name and correct password, but it would not accept it at all, I went through this about 2 weeks ago and could not log in for about 3 days straight and that was helped only by me contacting someone here and they reset the password from this site...Can anyone advise me as to what is happening here???

Irony: (Thomas Crane Wales...Seattle Washington....October 11, 2001)

Gary Ridgeway; green river serial killer was arrested on November 30, 2001, as he was leaving the Renton, Washington, Kenworth truck factory where he worked. GR was initially arrested for the murders of four women whose cases were linked to him through DNA evidence. GR was identified due to DNA technology upgrades after over 2 decades of being considered a primary suspect & passing 2 polygraphs in the early 80s..There were over 4,000 POIs & Suspects raked over the coals by the Green River Task Force..

GR was later convicted for the murder of 49 women but admitted to over 70 total(actual number unknown-GR's plea agreement was for WA murders only. He was also suspected of dumping victims in Oregon). He strangled the women, usually with his arm but sometimes using ligatures.. Said it was much easier with a ligature..

Imo, y'all are doing a helluva job at locating possible unknown victims of malignant sadistic serial killer Israel Keyes.. Do ya ever sleep?

Foxfire said:

Irony: (Thomas Crane Wales...Seattle Washington....October 11, 2001)

Gary Ridgeway; green river serial killer was arrested on November 30, 2001, as he was leaving the Renton, Washington, Kenworth truck factory where he worked. GR was initially arrested for the murders of four women whose cases were linked to him through DNA evidence. GR was identified due to DNA technology upgrades after over 2 decades of being considered a primary suspect & passing 2 polygraphs in the early 80s..There were over 4,000 POIs & Suspects raked over the coals by the Green River Task Force..

GR was later convicted for the murder of 49 women but admitted to over 70 total(actual number unknown-GR's plea agreement was for WA murders only. He was also suspected of dumping victims in Oregon). He strangled the women, usually with his arm but sometimes using ligatures.. Said it was much easier with a ligature..

Imo, y'all are doing a helluva job at locating possible unknown victims of malignant sadistic serial killer Israel Keyes.. Do ya ever sleep?

Click to expand...

Foxfire, Yes I do sleep...ha ha ha, but this case really grabbed me inside for some unknown reason....I have tried to follow since the 1st day they released his photo before they knew Samantha was deceased plus I lost both my Husband and Mom a few months ago, so this has sure passed away a lot of lonely hours for me and I have to say by reading various cases I grew very curious about all the various things that lays in any serial killer mind and thoughts, had never really gave it a thought but each one seems to have a slight varation in the MO or in the thinking how to do a crime.........I will say in my thought process they are not human at all, Yes they have bodies, eyes, hands and etc...but definitely No Soul what so ever and I feel that is why they seem to always have a cold distant look through the eyes and of course their brain to me could never be functioning as a human being does...I don't know if anyone will ever find if they are born with a defect or if it is simply perhaps that traumatized them in some way during the early childhood years (and I do not mean in any way parents are responsible)....I am a simple woman, so I have to weigh my thoughts out simple....I have always heard my Mom say "Kids learn and do as they see".....that when thought about can get very complex to me in some ways....Is it that as a baby perhaps they were never held, cuddled or had human touch that doctors always say a baby needs in the 1st weeks of life???I make that statement because I have read about foreign countries have so many orphaned children sometimes they just more or less throw them in a bed, never holding them, let them cry for hours on end, not fed properly, nor have a diaper change....Most kids that go through this is said to grow and become detached of the world around them and they HATE the human touch as they might get when growing up in years, and often they turn out to be very agressive yet withdrawn from society, often seen as loners and I feel this happens very early in life....I can't imagine being a baby and cry, wearing dirty diapers, hungry but no-one will come to help me....I think this is what caused the aggressiveness in those kids so it makes me think maybe a serial killer was somehow neglected in the very early weeks of their life............but Oh welll, this is all my thinking out loud