Trial - Ross Harris #6

blue22 said:

You think I will say #1 obviously. I won't. Just because F1 exists somewhere out there, doesn't mean Ross is LESS capable. And I simply don't subscribe to your idealization of Ross. IMO, he wasn't dad of the year who just happened to be cheating with adults and minors.

There is plenty of evidence to show that Ross prioritized himself over his family. We can agree to disagree on that.

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I asked you to pick which would be more likely to have murdered his 2-year-old son. Obviously it's Father # 1.

I wonder why you're hesitant to say a demonstrably bad and negligent father would more likely murder his toddler than a demonstrably attentive and loving father. You were astounded at my failure of logic, but I think there's something missing in the evaluation.

You have not been paying attention if you think I've been idealizing Ross.

Never said he was dad of the year either. It's quite possible to be a lousy person and still not be guilty of murder.

I see the state's strategy has been successful in creating so much prejudice against Ross that he can be convicted of murder without actual evidence. That's really not how our justice system is supposed to work, believe it or not.

arkansasmimi said:

Not meaning snarky , you know me Peach
Curious what you would have thought about those photos if you hadn't followed this case from time it broke?
What about if there was a friend, an acquaintance or what ever and you thought was a loving family person or insert something you thought well of them about .. then found out that they were an addict of some sort... alcohol, prescription drugs, illegal drugs, gambling, embezzlement, *advertiser censored*, having an affair, eating disorder... just about anything. It would change your opinion. Human nature to judge but not want to be judged.

People that do not even know this man are judging what they think they know about his love for his child. Yes hindsight is always 20/20 and I feel sure that LH/LT has beat herself up over things many hours over this. RH has an addiction. A self admitted one it appears. Has had professional therapist. Hasn't been accused of doing anything with anyone in a forced manner. Testimony under oath has provided that.

JMHO, I expect the LEO to follow the Law. I expect them to be held at a high standard, they are put in potential life threatening situations daily. They can change someones life in a moment for ever by not being thorough and factual. You can accuse anyone of anything. In a criminal case State have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the charges. We are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Some clearly have LH/LT guilty of stuff not even charged with (but Stoddard has her still as a suspect) in the case of her child who died and his Manner of Death is UNDETERMINED on his filed Death Certificate. This case is so messed up. Even without RH issues that the State trying to say premeditated 2 weeks prior to kill his son. Yet all kinds stuff on electronics. :scared:

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BBM

I know that you weren't being snarky, but I am not sure what you mean by your question. I am going to try to answer anyway.

If I had seen those pictures before knowing what I know about Ross, I probably would have found them genuine.

Despite what I knew before the trial started, I have watched weeks of testimony regarding Ross's "double life." I know how Ross treated Leanna. He was more much than a crappy husband. Sexting with minors is far more serious than getting his jollies with women who were not his wife. Bringing random strangers into his home for sex on the couch puts his family at risk. Meeting up with barely legal girls for BJs is truly disturbing. However, Ross was at times a crappy father as well. While no one has testified that Ross didn't "love" Cooper, there is still ample evidence that he didn't treat Cooper well. For example, sexting a random woman while laying in bed next to Cooper does not scream "Father of the Year" to me. He was texting pictures of Cooper to women he didn't know. As someone who works in IT, he should have known the dangers of that. For at least three months, Cooper's car seat did not fit properly. That doesn't show concern for Cooper's safety. All of things were revealed during the trial. Unfortunely for Ross, the curtain has been pulled back, and his double life has been revealed. There is no going back.

With that in mind, those pictures and videos did nothing but reinforce Ross's double life. The darkness hiding behind Ross's smile was contrasted by the innocence of Cooper and Leanna. While playing the family man in those images, Ross was actually in the process of destroying his family. I was thoroughly disgusted. As I said, I couldn't help it. I tried to push those feelings aside, but they kept coming back. The jury has been exposed to that same testimony about Ross. I wonder what they thought of the pictures.

ETA - I cried when I watched some of the videos. That didn't change my disgust for Ross!

Hope4More said:

It's not a matter of whether or not it's true RH had watched that pet video and had listened well enough to a TV show or PSA or whatever to have been able to talk advocate to LE. Those are the facts, but not in context.

Harris didn't go off researching hot car deaths, counter to LE's assertions. He clicked on a trending video on a Reddit page. Ross did that ADD kind of random searching pretty constantly, from what I can tell. And he remembered a PSA.

Now he's sitting in the police station and his son has just died in a hot car. Does he tell LE he's aware of the dangers because he wants to help LE charge him with murder? Or does he tell LE because he mistakingly believes they are exculpatory? My bet is on the latter.

Does the fact he knew of the danger yet did not do a safety check on the day Cooper died indicate he intended to kill Cooper,because he couldn't possibly have not remembered to do one that day? Not IMO. I think it's pretty clear he had a lot on his mind that AM. Negligence? Yes. Intent? Nah.

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:banghead: my head hurts does yours

blue22 said:

You think I will say #1 obviously. I won't. Just because F1 exists somewhere out there, doesn't mean Ross is LESS capable. And I simply don't subscribe to your idealization of Ross. IMO, he wasn't dad of the year who just happened to be cheating with adults and minors.

There is plenty of evidence to show that Ross prioritized himself over his family. We can agree to disagree on that.

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If you can't answer that hypothetical, here's another:

Which father would be more likely to murder his son:

Father # 1: Has a history of abusing and neglecting his 2-year-old son. F1 has been faithful to his wife and has never sexted minors.

Father #2: Has never abused or neglected his 2-year-old son. F2 has cheated on his wife and sexted with minors.

blue22 said:

Neither is logical and I don't subscribe to either.

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I'm not trying to pick on you I'm just trying to get you to open your mind a bit.

Cheers

gitana1 said:

No. I don't think so.
There is evidence that corroborates those statements. He actually watched the vet video five day before he forgot Cooper. And he knew far too many details about the advocate who left his son in the car for that to be untrue. It is a glaring fact that Ross Harris was 100% educated about the dangers and risks of hot car deaths and 100 % educa ted as to how to prevent them, days before his own son died in the hot car.

That one factor out of all of the facts in this case might be the very most important factor pointing to guilt. It's huge. It's unique. It's extremely damning and damaging and if I were the state I would focus on that like a laser beam. Cherry picking? One of the most pivotal statments he made? It's not like it's some random factor that on it's own is meaningless when compared with ALL the other wonderful statments he made that made him look good. My goodness it's some of the most important stuff out of an avalanche of stuff that makes it very hard to believe he accidentally forgot his son.

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RB&CBM
I concur that these two facts are huge hurdles for the DT when augmented by all of the other dreaded testimony.

Hope4More said:

Who told LE that?

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11:05 a.m. Stoddard says during interviews, Harris told them that Cooper said "school" just before leaving Chick-fil-A.

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/ross-harr...the-ross-harris-hot-car-death-trial/460110234

gitana1 said:

Yes. Except that's clearly and 100% NOT how Ross Harris felt. In his very own words, he stated that shortly before his son died, he watched a news report about a dad who left his kid to die in the car, who became an advocate for hot car death prevention, and that as a result, Ross began making a practice of "looking back twice" because the "worst fear" of him was leaving his son in the car. So clearly Ross felt that it could happen to him and supposedly was so worried about that that he began a practice of looking again to prevent that from happening. But despite that, and despite the gruesome reminder five days before Cooper died, that Ross saw of what happens when you leave a dependent creature in the car, Ross did just that, failing suddenly to "look again" and utterly forgetting his son despite having not one call or text come in or go out during the extremely short time he left the CFA and got, at least, to the intersection, where he had to make the decision as to which direction he was going to go.

No comparison.

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I wish I had been able to watch more of this trial.

With what little i have seen on replay I would not have enough to make a decision but I will add that this part about him admitting to seeing something on the news about this makes me think he got the idea to do this on purpose from that news report.

So far its his demeanor that has bothered me the most about him. I just flat out dont believe him at all.

His actions and ill feelings of his relationship with his wife has me leaning towards this being done on purpose. I would have had to be on the jury and listen each day before I could actually say he is guilty or anything but the initial feelings with what little I have seen is giving me a very bad impression of him.

Not much to go on but what little I have is not giving me any good vibes about him. He comes across to me as a lying snake. His proven snakish moves behind his wife's back is some indication that he can be a real snake. So its not much of a leap for me to think he could do that to his child on purpose. Nothing I have seen has made me lean the other way yet. And I wont give him the benefit of the doubt until something I see begins to lean me that way.

But again I could not convict him with so little I have because I havent viewed enough of the trial testimony.

minor4th said:

" Criminal negligence" is not an offense and therefore cannot be the underlying felony for a felony murder conviction.

Involuntary manslaughter also cannot be the predicate offense for felony murder and carries a much shorter sentencing range.

http://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2010/title-16/chapter-5/article-1/16-5-3

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Is this article incorrect then?

http://www.myajc.com/news/news/what-justin-ross-harris-charges-mean/nhF9Z/


Felony murder: Refers to a death that happens, perhaps unintentionally, during the commission of another felony.

Level of proof required: A jury must only determine that Harris acted with criminal negligence rather than with intent to harm.
Possible penalty: Carries a mandatory life sentence.

Second degree child cruelty: Defined as causing a child “cruel or excessive physical or mental pain” through criminal negligence.

Level of proof required: Prosecutors must only prove that there was criminal negligence (not necessarily malice).
Possible penalty: Between one and ten years imprisonment.

DeDee said:

RB&CBM
I concur that these two facts are huge hurdles for the DT when augmented by all of the other dreaded testimony.

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IMO those are only hurdles if the jury is filtering evidence through a prism of having accepted intent.

I think the chief hurdle the DT has is twofold. Was it possible for Ross to "forget" Cooper in such a short time? No- go straight to jail. Yes? Was it possible for Ross to not have been triggered to "remember" Cooper, if he had FBS, given multiple cues at work?

Hope4More said:

IMO those are only hurdles if the jury is filtering evidence through a prism of having accepted intent.

I think the chief hurdle the DT has is twofold. Was it possible for Ross to "forget" Cooper in such a short time? No- go straight to jail. Yes? Was it possible for Ross to not have been triggered to "remember" Cooper, if he had FBS, given multiple cues at work?

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the witnesses today just keep whining on about "Ross bragging on Cooper" all same the same line...since when does that mean you are a good parent. I find some people that do that are the most uninvolved parents of all. That means nothing to me.

[
Quote Originally Posted by justkk View Post
I find it fascinating when people refer to RH "double life" as "just because he was cheating on his wife" or "just because he was sexting" ... What he was involved in for YEARS which we obviously were not privy to all of it - maybe just a fraction (who knows) - was not simply "a guy cheating on his wife". I have seen it put so many different ways all with the intent of making him seem like sort of just your run of the mill dirtbag.
It is mind boggling to think of the huge numbers of texts, calls, many different messaging apps (kik, scout, whisper), prostitutes, hookups, etc... That he had going on!! AND no one else in his life had ANY idea this is going on. He was holding on to an enormous secret. This was not just a girl on the side...This to me is like a textbook example of a "double life". It's SCARY!
I am not saying this is proof that he killed Cooper, but it is certainly NOT irrelevant in this case. And I am baffled by the references to this double life as "he was a cheater" so what?

On another note, I am also baffled by the lack of supporters for him in court. Maybe they are all still going to take the stand at some point....? Where are all the church people and friends? His family? (I know his brother and sister in law testified).
All JMO
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arkansasmimi said:

RBBM, this is not true. People knew of RH doing this. Addiction
RH,first friend he told about the *advertiser censored* Leanna, Pastor, accountability partner who stopped being his accountability partner months later, men in their couples group,wives of those men in the small couples group, his brother, his sister in law, the counselor in there small church group, the professional therapist, Angie LH BFF, And ALLL the people he was sexting with that were sexting with him and others, and the prostitute that was not charged with any thing. <<Still can't get over that one.

And going back to 2008... didn't just start in 2013
JMHO from testimony thus far

**

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Ummm yes, I guess I assumed that most would realize that when I posted he was keeping an enormous secret of his double life that I didn't think he was keeping it secret from the people he was conducting his double life with.... That's just silly.
Yes, the prostitute(s), women, man/men (?) he was having sex with, the women he was sexting with, having online relationships with etc.., yes THEY all knew his secret

As for his wife, church pastor, brother and sister in law and LH BFF - I think they ALL (not the pastor) testified that they DID NOT know about the double life. They knew about the *advertiser censored* addiction and the 2 messages that LH found. VERY different than what has been involved about the scope of his activities. I was very clear in referencing that his "double life" was the enormous secret.

And honestly, you missed the point of my post anyway. I was simply saying that I was baffled by people minimizing the entirety of what he was engaged in as "he was cheating on his wife" or "he was sexting with willing partners who were also sexting".
I'm sorry, I'm just not understanding this response with regards to my post.


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another observation is that very often the camera is directed at the judge who appears to be sleeping or extremely close...she has to work very hard to stay awake...must not get much sleep.

gitana1 said:

No one was able to testify that OJ Simspon was murderous. Or casey anthony. Or scott peterson. Or hundreds of other criminals we have read about and watched who killed their children or spouses in cold-blooded ways. Heck, that even goes for some serial killers who had a wonderful veneer of normalcy. Nope. They can parade as many witnesses as they want to testify how loving Ross was. scott peterson is a saint if you believe what his defense witnesses stated. That doesn't impress me.

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Just a few witnesses who testified that OJ was violent towards Nicole in the past:
Alfred Apostolic testified that he saw OJ hit Nicole in the face. Albert Aguilera testified that he saw OJ punch her and push her to the ground. Denise Brown testified that she saw OJ grab Nicole by the crotch in public and say "This is mine!", threw Nicole against a wall and destroyed stuff in the house.

http://edition.cnn.com/US/OJ/players/A-G/

Nothing like this has come out about Ross.

Quote Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
No. I don't think so.
There is evidence that corroborates those statements. He actually watched the vet video five day before he forgot Cooper. And he knew far too many details about the advocate who left his son in the car for that to be untrue. It is a glaring fact that Ross Harris was 100% educated about the dangers and risks of hot car deaths and 100 % educa ted as to how to prevent them, days before his own son died in the hot car.

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Unless Ross is proven to be completely dissociative... There is no way Ross would ever go beyond the call of duty to protect his child..knowing full well he can get side-tracked...unless and of course Cooper being gone removes all liability for HIM for the next 16+ years... Ross may be a deviant..but he isn't stupid...That's why I just cannot accept Ross did this "Innocently"..between timeline..his verbal diarrhea in interview..and his pathetic theatrics away from Home Depot parking lot..screams pre-meditations... Just NOT buying his persona that wife and family project..TALK IS CHEAP!! ACTIONS speak louder than word!!

In the end..Ross will be found guilty of many counts..be registered as a "Sex Offender" and responsible for the DEATH of his 22 month old child!! While he likely has no interest in having any more children ( surely he should get his tubes snipped to protect another sucker to bring another innocent to life!!

I guess..I have walked for decades in the shoes of frontline providers to Society as does LE officers etc...IN that role we often see the worst of the worst..and recognize the body language..speech patterns that raise those RED FLAGS!! Tal is cheap..must look into past behaviours in order to corroborate initial instinctual thoughts..BUT with decades of experience..that "Hinkey Meter" is usually pretty accurate.

I refuse to judge his x-wife or family..as they obviously were in the DARK..which in the end..ROSS was nothing as he portrayed..He was simply a guy who did what he did in order to FEED his own ego.. There's lots of Psychology links that would describe him..BUT any emotion he projects always occurs when he feels exposed..and then "FEELS SORRY for HIMSELF".....Embarrassment and knowing he has hurt his family ..not so much..more like he realizes he's exposed and FEELS SORRY for himself!! better known as "Self Pity" ..

His history of aberrancy since 2008 ..and his ability to navigate the blockades..allowed him to continue..Yet he never really changed his ways..only increased his HIGH Risk behaviour!! Cooper ended up being the worst outcome!! Why is it that innocents always lose?? He was such a lovely child!! :facepalm:

justkk said:

Ummm yes, I guess I assumed that most would realize that when I posted he was keeping an enormous secret of his double life that I didn't think he was keeping it secret from the people he was conducting his double life with.... That's just silly.
Yes, the prostitute(s), women, man/men (?) he was having sex with, the women he was sexting with, having online relationships with etc.., yes THEY all knew his secret

As for his wife, church pastor, brother and sister in law and LH BFF - I think they ALL (not the pastor) testified that they DID NOT know about the double life. They knew about the *advertiser censored* addiction and the 2 messages that LH found. VERY different than what has been involved about the scope of his activities. I was very clear in referencing that his "double life" was the enormous secret.

And honestly, you missed the point of my post anyway. I was simply saying that I was baffled by people minimizing the entirety of what he was engaged in as "he was cheating on his wife" or "he was sexting with willing partners who were also sexting".
I'm sorry, I'm just not understanding this response with regards to my post.


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If it makes you feel better justkk, I understand exactly what you were saying. I also disagree with the assumption he was "just a cheater" or a "harmless pervert" (there is no such thing). JRH wasn't just cheating. He was living a married life on one hand, and a single life on the other. The full scope of his behavior and sexual preferences was unknown to pretty much everyone. That's not "just cheating."

gitana1 said:

No. I don't think so.
There is evidence that corroborates those statements. He actually watched the vet video five day before he forgot Cooper. And he knew far too many details about the advocate who left his son in the car for that to be untrue. It is a glaring fact that Ross Harris was 100% educated about the dangers and risks of hot car deaths and 100 % educa ted as to how to prevent them, days before his own son died in the hot car.

That one factor out of all of the facts in this case might be the very most important factor pointing to guilt. It's huge. It's unique. It's extremely damning and damaging and if I were the state I would focus on that like a laser beam. Cherry picking? One of the most pivotal statments he made? It's not like it's some random factor that on it's own is meaningless when compared with ALL the other wonderful statments he made that made him look good. My goodness it's some of the most important stuff out of an avalanche of stuff that makes it very hard to believe he accidentally forgot his son.

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Thank you Gitana for being here and giving your unique perspective.

gitana1 said:

I agree. His own words that he has no conscience, however, those words give me pause. The thing is, there is often no evidence that someone is capable of doing something like this until they actually do it.

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There is no way of knowing whether he was joking when he answered "no" to the question about having a conscience. That's the problem with talking to people on the internet, things can be taken literally when in reality it was meant to be sarcastic or a joke.

Rayemonde said:

Just a few witnesses who testified that OJ was violent towards Nicole in the past:
Alfred Apostolic testified that he saw OJ hit Nicole in the face. Albert Aguilera testified that he saw OJ punch her and push her to the ground. Denise Brown testified that she saw OJ grab Nicole by the crotch in public and say "This is mine!", threw Nicole against a wall and destroyed stuff in the house.

http://edition.cnn.com/US/OJ/players/A-G/

Nothing like this has come out about Ross.

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He was abusive in a more passive-aggressive way. He brought strangers into their home and had sex on the couch---same couch the baby crawled on and napped on. He had multiple sexual partners and that is very high risk, and potentially dangerous for his wife. He sent pictures of his son to strangers he met on sex hook up sites. I see that as abusive behavior on his part.

cavvy said:

There is no way of knowing whether he was joking when he answered "no" to the question about having a conscience. That's the problem with talking to people on the internet, things can be taken literally when in reality it was meant to be sarcastic or a joke.

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But his actions seem to prove he was telling the truth.