Partially Wrapped Gifts

UKGuy · Apr 20, 2008

Ramsey warrant dated December 26, 1996
http://community.bouldernews.com/extra/ramsey/1997/09/29-2.html
This warrant itemises:
Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz (55KKY)
Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz (56KKY)
Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz (57KKY)

FAO Schwartz is a gift-wrapping service that was used by Patsy on her NY trip.

See in bottom left of this picture, in the wine-cellar, the Schwartz wrapped gift.

A fuller picture is:

You can see JonBenet on xmas-morning with a FAO Schwartz wrapped gift to her left.

UKGuy · Apr 20, 2008

June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane

0271
24 LOU SMIT: Okay. we'll get off that subject
25 for just a little while, may be I'll come back to

0272
1 it later. I'm going to just touch a little bit on
2 presents, okay?
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
4 LOU SMIT: And I wanted to do that and
5 kind
6 of lead into various photographs, okay? I've got
7 photographs of the wine cellar. And these were
8 taken during the course of the crime scene
9 investigation. And it shows various presents in
10 the wine cellar. And I just had a couple questions
11 on that.
12 It's 263, 264, 265, 266, 267 -- I'm sorry. We'll
13 eliminate those 266, 267 and 268. we'll just
14 concentrate on the first three. And we'll just
15 show that to the camera and that will make up
16 somewhat of an image. Do you have any comments
17 about that, or does anything that looks out of
18 place? Because you're the one that knows basically
19 your house.

0272
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had gotten a bunch
21 of gifts at FAO Swartz up in New York in early
22 December, some of which were for them were for
23 Burke's birthday, which was in January. She didn't
24 know they were in the closet exactly,

...

0273
13 LOU SMIT: You notice how the packages seem
14 to be partially opened. Can you explain this?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I can't.
16 LOU SMIT: So Patsy had gone there and
17 just kind looked to see what was (INAUDBILE)?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible. (INAUDIBLE) I mean,
19 you can figure out what's in them. The cigar box
20 was sitting on a paint can, or something like
21 that. And I believe it shouldn't have.

June 1998 Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Thomas Haney and Trip DeMuth

0390
18 TOM HANEY: Okay. And on Christmas Eve, when
19 you went in there --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
21 TOM HANEY: -- this wasn't there?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
23 TOM HANEY: How about the blanket?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
25 TRIP DEMUTH: If we could go back, kind of

0391
1 skipped over a couple of pictures here, 145.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: There is the bicycle.
3 TRIP DEMUTH: I have a question for you, 148
4 here.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: These were gifts I think I was
6 holding back for Burke's birthday.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: They are in the red and white
8 and yellow FAO Schwartz wrapping?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Now in 148 there is also this
11 white pocket, do you know what that is?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh, it looks like cotton.
13 I don't know.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. It is hard to sort of
15 figure out where all of these pictures are taken, but
16 there is another package over here.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: Does that look out of place or
19 in the proper place?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I had -- you know, I
21 stacked up some packages along there (inaudible).
22 Kicked (inaudible) or something. I kind of have it
23 backed up here.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. So the packages in 146,
25 it looks like it is out of place to you?

0392
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh. Yeah. See, that
2 looks -- the door would be here.
3 TRIP DEMUTH: It is hard.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: So that would be back in here
5 somewhere. I was right in front of the door.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: No. Here are the screens. You
7 see the screens over here, the small screens, so it is
8 more back in this.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I would tuck them
10 there.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: I guess the point is, there
12 wasn't one that was off by itself. They should have
13 all been together.
14 The location in picture 148 is the correct
15 place for all of the packages to have been?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
17 TOM HANEY: Before we go on, could we just
18 talk briefly about the packages, these were presents
19 for whom, the ones that were left in there?
0392
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe for, you know, I
21 held some back for Burke's birthday which is in
22 January.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
24 TOM HANEY: So that could have been that.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember what

0393
1 was in them.
2 TOM HANEY: Would any of these packages be
3 opened?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these
5 came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when
6 JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them
7 sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift
8 wrapping.
9 So like right here it looks like I kind of
10 peeled a little back to see what was in it because I
11 couldn't remember what was in them.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: If the wrapping has been undone
13 partially, that was --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I probably would have done
15 that to peek to see what was in there.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
17 TOM HANEY: Where did you do the bulk of your
18 Christmas shopping, the items you put in there?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, all of this stuff right
20 here was from FAO Schwartz in New York. JonBenet got a
21 bicycle that year. I got a university bicycle, and she
22 got a twin doll which I mail ordered, and --
23 TOM HANEY: Did she get to ride her bike?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: She got to ride her bike.
25 TOM HANEY: Christmas day?

0394
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Out in the back driveway.
2 TOM HANEY: You don't remember the weather
3 that day, was --
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Sunny, nice.
5 TOM HANEY: So did she get much time on it?
6 Was it training wheel equipped or was she able to ride
7 a two wheeler by herself?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think it had training
9 wheels. I think it did.
10 TOM HANEY: Did she get much time on it?
11 Could you give us a glue.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No idea; riding out in the
13 back.
14 TOM HANEY: But she was able to handle it,
15 she didn't crash or anything?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

Ames · Apr 20, 2008

UKGuy said:
June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane

June 1998 Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Thomas Haney and Trip DeMuth

Looks to me that at least some of the gifts had no name tags...that is why she had to peel the paper back to see what was in them. IMO the bloomies...were in that assortment of presents. I am quite sure that Patsy wasn't planning on giving her niece only underwear for Christmas...so, they could have been placed in another box with something else inside...maybe a sweater or something. Who knows. I just don't believe that those Bloomies were kept inside a drawer...they were WAY too big for JB, so why would she have wanted them? It would have taken awhile for her to grow into them, and Patsy could have just made another trip to Bloomingdales and bought JB some more that would have fit her the following year. I just couldn't imagine JB wanting to keep underwear that she wouldn't be able to wear for at least three more years...at the least.

UKGuy · Apr 20, 2008

Now when Patsy purchased the size-12 Bloomingdales panties, I assume these were wrapped inside the store, and charged to her card? Were these mailed for delivery after purchase, e.g. did Patsy leave the store with them that day?

Any gifts purchased at FAO Schwartz were presumably wrapped there, one can be seen in JonBenet's xmas-morning photo.

The partially-wrapped gifts found in the wine-cellar may indeed be just that, wrapped in FAO Schwartz paper purchased for this purpose?

Note the phrase Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz does not list the contents, but implies something has been partially wrapped.

Now Patsy's remarks about opening the gifts seems curious:

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these
5 came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when
6 JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them
7 sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift
8 wrapping.
9 So like right here it looks like I kind of
10 peeled a little back to see what was in it because I
11 couldn't remember what was in them.

She has them FAO Schwartz gift-wrapped and presumably gift-tagged too, otherwise why bother with the gift-wrapping?

So are the gifts left in the wine-cellar as described e.g. partially wrapped, and minus gift-tags, since that part was yet to be completed?

Note the ramnesia episode at 11.

Also from DOI

DOI, page2:
"Patsy and I savored the night before Christmas, helping Santa Claus put everything in place". "We had made several trips to the basement, where Patsy kept the wrapped gifts stashed away".

DOI, page 5:
"Patsy got busy preparing for our early morning departure the next day to Charlevoix, Michigan. She had some last minute gift wrapping to finish for John Andrew, and Melinda, the older children from my first marriage. There were a few things for the Charlevoix neighbor kids as well as a few special gifts for Stewart, Melinda's fiance, who would join us for this first ever family Christmas get together at our summer cottage in Charlevoix.

DOI, page 7:
"I always loved hanging around airports, and Christmas Day was no different. I loaded some of the gifts that were going to Michigan and made sure the plane was ready to go".

So the three left in the basement were presumably not going to michigan, similarly the size-12's, otherwise they would be in the plane?

UKGuy · Apr 20, 2008

Ames said:
Looks to me that at least some of the gifts had no name tags...that is why she had to peel the paper back to see what was in them. IMO the bloomies...were in that assortment of presents. I am quite sure that Patsy wasn't planning on giving her niece only underwear for Christmas...so, they could have been placed in another box with something else inside...maybe a sweater or something. Who knows. I just don't believe that those Bloomies were kept inside a drawer...they were WAY too big for JB, so why would she have wanted them? It would have taken awhile for her to grow into them, and Patsy could have just made another trip to Bloomingdales and bought JB some more that would have fit her the following year. I just couldn't imagine JB wanting to keep underwear that she wouldn't be able to wear for at least three more years...at the least.

Ames,
You could be right, but surely FAO Schwartz did not simply wrap all her purchases without name-tags or some form of ID. Their wrapping paper appears similar and generic. I reckon the ones in the wine-cellar were to be finished wrapping?

DeeDee249 · Apr 20, 2008

Thanks for posting this, UKGuy. It does sound like the usual R typical fudging when asked about the presents. PR does seem to be admitting that she "peeked" into them to see what was in there, thus offering and excuse for their being open and possibly her prints being on them, though I don't recall seeing if those presents were every checked for prints. JR gives his usual answer of "NO" when asked if he could explain why the packages are opened. And DeMuth and Haney give their usual leading questions, asking "Does this look out if place to you?", leaving the R's to say YES. I mean, why not just show them the photos and leave it to them to say if anything looks out of place.
That whole topic is ridiculous, anyway. Unless someone had actually seen what it looked like before, it is really only the Rs say-so that this or that is "out of place". They are always going to maintain that this was an intruder crime- they HAD to say somethings were out of place because there was NO evidence of an intruder. Foreign DNA ON their child and IN her panties does not indicate in intruder in and of itself- there would also have to be forensic evidence of someone actually being in the house. (prints, hairs, etc. ).

KatK · Apr 20, 2008

Were they maybe ornamental, meant to help fill out the display? :waitasec: I don't get why a normal person would do that, but I know Doctor's offices do that. "Fake" gifts, only for looks.

UKGuy · Apr 20, 2008

DeeDee249 said:
Thanks for posting this, UKGuy. It does sound like the usual R typical fudging when asked about the presents. PR does seem to be admitting that she "peeked" into them to see what was in there, thus offering and excuse for their being open and possibly her prints being on them, though I don't recall seeing if those presents were every checked for prints. JR gives his usual answer of "NO" when asked if he could explain why the packages are opened. And DeMuth and Haney give their usual leading questions, asking "Does this look out if place to you?", leaving the R's to say YES. I mean, why not just show them the photos and leave it to them to say if anything looks out of place.
That whole topic is ridiculous, anyway. Unless someone had actually seen what it looked like before, it is really only the Rs say-so that this or that is "out of place". They are always going to maintain that this was an intruder crime- they HAD to say somethings were out of place because there was NO evidence of an intruder. Foreign DNA ON their child and IN her panties does not indicate in intruder in and of itself- there would also have to be forensic evidence of someone actually being in the house. (prints, hairs, etc. ).

DeeDee249,
Yes and notice how there is no mention of name-tags how is that? I'll bet that present to JonBenet's left in her xmas-morning picture has a name-tag.

Patsy surely cannot expect us to believe she gift-wrapped three presents with FAO Schwartz wrapping paper, without marking them in some manner, so at a later date she does not need to open them to peek inside. The alternative is that they are as described partially-wrapped?

.

DeeDee249 · Apr 20, 2008

KatK said:
Were they maybe ornamental, meant to help fill out the display? :waitasec: I don't get why a normal person would do that, but I know Doctor's offices do that. "Fake" gifts, only for looks.

They wouldn't be in the basement, then. If they were meant as a display, they'd be upstairs under one of the many decorated trees in the home, and they wouldn't be partially unwrapped. I do know what you mean, but PR herself stated they were gifts for BR and others. Also, you wouldn't need to open empty boxes- you can easily tell they are empty just by picking them up.

JMO8778 · Apr 20, 2008

Ames said:
Looks to me that at least some of the gifts had no name tags...that is why she had to peel the paper back to see what was in them. IMO the bloomies...were in that assortment of presents. I am quite sure that Patsy wasn't planning on giving her niece only underwear for Christmas...so, they could have been placed in another box with something else inside...maybe a sweater or something. Who knows. I just don't believe that those Bloomies were kept inside a drawer...they were WAY too big for JB, so why would she have wanted them? It would have taken awhile for her to grow into them, and Patsy could have just made another trip to Bloomingdales and bought JB some more that would have fit her the following year. I just couldn't imagine JB wanting to keep underwear that she wouldn't be able to wear for at least three more years...at the least.

not to mention,Deedee pointed out that they looked just the same as her size 6's...so there would have been no real reason for her to have wanted them.they were identical,except for size.

KatK · Apr 20, 2008

DeeDee249 said:
They wouldn't be in the basement, then. If they were meant as a display, they'd be upstairs under one of the many decorated trees in the home, and they wouldn't be partially unwrapped. I do know what you mean, but PR herself stated they were gifts for BR and others. Also, you wouldn't need to open empty boxes- you can easily tell they are empty just by picking them up.

Ah, ok. Was just wondering out loud, putting forth an idea to see if it fit. I'm content to be a "Watson".

Ames · Apr 20, 2008

UKGuy said:
Ramsey warrant dated December 26, 1996
http://community.bouldernews.com/extra/ramsey/1997/09/29-2.html
This warrant itemises:
Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz (55KKY)
Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz (56KKY)
Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz (57KKY)

FAO Schwartz is a gift-wrapping service that was used by Patsy on her NY trip.

See in bottom left of this picture, in the wine-cellar, the Schwartz wrapped gift.

A fuller picture is:

You can see JonBenet on xmas-morning with a FAO Schwartz wrapped gift to her left.

I have a question...how does a person PARTIALLY wrap a gift, anyway? Rather...WHY would a person partially wrap a gift? Makes no sense...I agree with DeeDee when she calls them partially UN-wrapped...this makes alot more sense to me. This would fit the scenario of someone looking for the panties...knowing that they were there SOMEWHERE, but just didn't know which one. As far as name-tags go...it was probably pretty dark in the basement at that time, and there was a window there too...so they probably didn't want to turn on any lights....on top of the fact that they were panicky. At the time, it probably just seemed like a faster way ...to rip the packages open to try and find the Bloomies, than to read name tags.

Ames · Apr 20, 2008

JMO8778 said:
not to mention,Deedee pointed out that they looked just the same as her size 6's...so there would have been no real reason for her to have wanted them.they were identical,except for size.

Exactly...and if JB wanted more of them....with all of that money that they had...Patsy would have just marched herself back to Bloomingdales and bought her a bigger set....ones that fit maybe an 8 year old...the next size up. JB might not even LIKE those kind of panties when she turned 10 or 12 ....so why keep a pair of size 12's? First of all, I couldn't imagine JB wanting panties that she couldn't wear then...and had to wait years and years to fit into them...and second of all..I couldn't imagine Patsy agreeing to let JB keep them. IMO she would have told JB that the next time they were in Bloomingdales, they would pick up a set that she could wear the following year, and that she bought the size 12's for her niece..and that she intended to give them to her.

DeeDee249 · Apr 20, 2008

I never saw anything before about John Fernie following JR and Fleet White down to the basement. Did anyone else know this.

Ames · Apr 20, 2008

DeeDee249 said:
I never saw anything before about John Fernie following JR and Fleet White down to the basement. Did anyone else know this.

Okay, I must have missed that part...where did you read that??

DeeDee249 · Apr 20, 2008

Ames said:
Okay, I must have missed that part...where did you read that??

Go back to your own post #12 where you quote UKGuy. Click on the first link (the community/boulder one) for the search affidavit and scroll down till you read the part where it mentions Detective Arndt saying "JR went immediately to the basement, followed by Fleet White and John Fernie". It's in there.

DeeDee249 · Apr 20, 2008

UKGuy said:
Ramsey warrant dated December 26, 1996
http://community.bouldernews.com/extra/ramsey/1997/09/29-2.html
This warrant itemises:
Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz (55KKY)
Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz (56KKY)
Partially wrapped FAO Schwartz (57KKY)

FAO Schwartz is a gift-wrapping service that was used by Patsy on her NY trip.

See in bottom left of this picture, in the wine-cellar, the Schwartz wrapped gift.

A fuller picture is:

You can see JonBenet on xmas-morning with a FAO Schwartz wrapped gift to her left.

Look at the link with the white blanket where you can see the small corner of the FAO Schwartz box. NO WAY PR kept wrapped presents for BR or anybody else in that filthy wineceller. No one would do that, especially in a house the size of the Rs. If you needed to keep presents in the basement, there were several other basement rooms that were carpeted. No one would leave them on that dirty floor when there were alternatives. For one, if you wanted to hide it from your son, you could keep it in your own bedroom somewhere. This confirms, to me at least, even more that the panties on the body were wrapped in one of the presents and brought into that room. I believe the redressing may have even occurred right in the wineceller.

maya.morgen · Apr 21, 2008

DeeDee249 said:
This confirms, to me at least, even more that the panties on the body were wrapped in one of the presents and brought into that room. I believe the redressing may have even occurred right in the wineceller.

i totally agree with this.

UKGuy · Apr 21, 2008

Ames said:
I have a question...how does a person PARTIALLY wrap a gift, anyway? Rather...WHY would a person partially wrap a gift? Makes no sense...I agree with DeeDee when she calls them partially UN-wrapped...this makes alot more sense to me. This would fit the scenario of someone looking for the panties...knowing that they were there SOMEWHERE, but just didn't know which one. As far as name-tags go...it was probably pretty dark in the basement at that time, and there was a window there too...so they probably didn't want to turn on any lights....on top of the fact that they were panicky. At the time, it probably just seemed like a faster way ...to rip the packages open to try and find the Bloomies, than to read name tags.

Ames,

I have a question...how does a person PARTIALLY wrap a gift, anyway?

Answer: by wrapping the paper around the gift, and folding it correctly, then leaving it as is, so it can be taped, string tied, remember that nylon cord? Or ribbon tied etc.

Rather...WHY would a person partially wrap a gift?

Answer: because they do not have everything required to finish the task at hand but want to make some progress, rather than start from zero at a later date.

I agree with DeeDee when she calls them partially UN-wrapped...this makes alot more sense to me. This would fit the scenario of someone looking for the panties

You may be correct but simply agreeing with someone elses speculation does not confirm anything. Just like everytime you see a white swan does not mean all swans are white!

UKGuy · Apr 21, 2008

DeeDee249 said:
Look at the link with the white blanket where you can see the small corner of the FAO Schwartz box. NO WAY PR kept wrapped presents for BR or anybody else in that filthy wineceller. No one would do that, especially in a house the size of the Rs. If you needed to keep presents in the basement, there were several other basement rooms that were carpeted. No one would leave them on that dirty floor when there were alternatives. For one, if you wanted to hide it from your son, you could keep it in your own bedroom somewhere. This confirms, to me at least, even more that the panties on the body were wrapped in one of the presents and brought into that room. I believe the redressing may have even occurred right in the wineceller.

DeeDee249,
It sure does seem like a curious place to hide xmas-gifts!

This confirms, to me at least, even more that the panties on the body were wrapped in one of the presents and brought into that room. I believe the redressing may have even occurred right in the wineceller.

If you read Patsy's interview note how evasive she is about being specific about the FAO Schwartz presents.

Also check this out:

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had gotten a bunch
21 of gifts at FAO Swartz up in New York in early
22 December, some of which were for them were for
23 Burke's birthday, which was in January. She didn't
24 know they were in the closet exactly,

This is John telling us all about the FAO Swartz gifts, and the recieved wisdom is he knew nothing about the gifts. Note the plural with reference to Burke's gifts.

Now combine with this snippet:

DOI, page 7:
"I always loved hanging around airports, and Christmas Day was no different. I loaded some of the gifts that were going to Michigan and made sure the plane was ready to go".

So John assisted with locating and transporting gifts. Inference: John probably knew more about the gifts than we assume.

Again for emphasis:

23 Burke's birthday, which was in January. She didn't
24 know they were in the closet exactly,

How does John know that Patsy did not know they were in the closet, does this mean it was John who placed them there?

Is this why Patsy is evasive and has developed amnesia?

.

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