Sievers Sidebar #3

AZlawyer said:

I think it helps if you remember that it is part of human psychology (because it is an extremely helpful evolutionary advantage) to look at a tragedy and attempt to learn a lesson from it. E.g., "If this were happening in my life, how would I recognize the signs?" "If this were happening in my friend's life, how could I help?" Subconsciously or not, we are all trying to figure out how these situations might be avoided in the future--and since we are not murderers we ask how non-murderers might avoid such situations. It is not blaming the victim but trying to learn lessons from her life.

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AZL & AZR I have a very good friend and client. She is beautiful, smart, educated, fun, ambitious, kind, generous....a spectacular human being!! She is married to a closet drunk who has had 50 jobs (that I know of) and sabotages her every time she turns around. She moved out of the house, he went into "rehab" and made the "big promises to get better." This spring she confided to me, "I already told my family, if I am found dead, HE DID IT." I am so upset with her because she is UNWILLING TO MAKE (in my opinion) A HEALTHY & PERMANENT separation from this man. She makes excuses about having to give up 1/2 her retirement, paying him alimony and 50% of assets. Of course, (being the quiet, non-opinionated, and unconcerned friend, NOT!) I'm saying to her, "So what??? No amount of money is worth your life or not seeing your children!!!"
It just makes me sick, because now she won't talk to me (or her family right now) about anything....I know she is not in a healthy place. I just wanted to let YOU know I have seen how complicated relationships can be....the heart wants, what the heart wants. Regardless, a murder for hire, is a murder for hire.

Frigga said:

Very well said and thank you.

I can only imagine what it feels like to be in her shoes, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Sigh.

I think often how this might have turned out if Teresa had confided in someone but I suppose that was the very nature that Mark counted on. He knew that wasn't how she operated- he had to have. Also, from having access to all written communications for their household and office- he had back up to support what he knew or believed.

Weather it be fear or pride a combination of both or just being a very private person I hope people understand that this is not what you do when there are red flags- you do not keep it to yourself.

If Teresa had confided in Aunt Mary or Annie Lisa, her mother or AR- they might have been able to support her and tell her she was correct in her thinking, suspicions- whatever and could have helped her formulate a safe exit plan. This is the most dangerous time for a spouse and all indications are Teresa had no idea what she was really dealing with. I do, I did, I know. Most of us here learned the hard way- trial by fire of a loved one.

It's done- no one can go back now to change things but I hope someone reads here and thinks to themselves- I could be in danger too- this sounds a lot like my husband, boyfriend co-worker... whatever. Seek help, don't keep secrets for them.

I think The Gift Of Fear should be required HS reading to graduate.

We teach young people all sorts of superfluous things and factoids they'll never use but we don't teach them practical ways to keep themselves safe, how to truly spot different types of predators, how to spot different warning signs and how to not only trust their intuitions but ACT upon them. Seriously, that's what I want my daughters, nieces and friends to know- among the other more academic things required for graduation.

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I just ordered the book, thank you for your recommendation

Frigga said:

Hi O-mama! We've missed you. Well, since when exactly? We're getting another doc dump again soon- other then that just hashing out feelings, thought processes and opinions.

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When is the doc dump? Working in a high school for the remainder of the year, 12 days and counting and the whole school has senioritis....

I spent 12 years in a marriage much like this and some here will remember my escape from it.

I too am educated and had even worked with victims of domestic abuse (back when it was only domestic 'violence' that was mentioned). My ex and his mother had me convinced over several years that *I* was cruel, vindictive, worthless and that they (he) was the best thing that ever happened to me. He was fired several times for sexual harassment, his mother hired a lawyer both times and since the young girls who had complained could not be identified by the employers (confidentiality), the employers agreed to remove the 'dismissed for .....' from any references.
He went on to have 2 affairs that my MIL first denied was possible, and then blamed me for???? The logical me KNEW that things were odd, but they convinced me that it was ME that was the problem. He had a joint account with my MIL and I was not allowed access to funds..... there was 'no need for me to have an account, since he would provide me with what I needed'.
I confided in our pastor, who shared with my ex that I had sought help ---- because they are both such pillars of the Church community, they could be trusted to seek appropriate counselling. They switched Churches, stopped me going to services (no room in the car) and the isolation was complete.
I was looking for the door within 5 years, but it took 7 more years to come up with a plan that would not endanger the children. During this time, I tuned out, nodded a lot, smiled and toed the line.
Once there are children in the mix, it is MUCH harder to confide (trust) anyone but yourself, and much more difficult to formulate a plan to be truly free. My ex has continued to attempt control using our son and the court system. I am thankful that family court Judges are much smarter than I thought and that the sort of abuse that leaves no bruises is as bad as outright violence.

BTW. There are still those who think he is a victim, but those people who matter to us know the truth.
Anyway, it is not difficult for me to imagine the crazy inside TS head as time went on, not wanting to be there but not knowing how to get out. Knowing things were wrong, but believing that she was the cause. Hating being together, but at least being able to negate/lessen/protect from some of the other parents' crazy from within. Never having been hit, but spending many nights awake fearing 'when' it would occur.
Divorce is easy, but it means having to allow your precious children to be alone with the crazy that made you doubt your own sanity/safety. TS was between a rock and a hard place, I wish I had known her and shared my experience with her.

On Amazon UK for the audio version. That's $150.46 at today's Ex Rt. The books costs £22 ($31.87) in UK, and $9.70 odds from US. More and more, I'm ordering books from the US when it works out way cheaper. Thanks for heads up!

The Gift of Fear: And Other Survival Signals That Protect Us from Violence1 Jun 2006
by Gavin de Becker
Audio CD
£103.85 used & new(7 offers)
Kindle Edition
£0.00
Subscribers read for £0.00.Learn more.
£4.78to buy

If it helps with the sleuthing on this case, take care when assuming what TS knew and what TS didn't know. I'm going to close this chapter by saying simply that just because MS has stated something or texted something or recorded something and if these things have been repeated - they still are more likely false than true. I have said many times over the past 11 months that TS had no idea the monster she was dealing with, she was not in fear of her life, she was not in fear for the lives of her children. She also was very open about things that bothered her, concerned her or caused her to worry. To my knowledge, there is NO ONE in Teresa's inner circle who had any idea that MS was capable of violence, let alone murder. That is the point. Teresa didn't even think he was capable of violence, nor would she have tolerated violence. So to make the jump to murder - it is incomprehensible. The singular reason why I believed MS to be behind this murder, from the very minute I heard of it, was because he was obsessed with money and control of money. I met him early in their marriage. He talked about money in every conversation I ever had with him. Make no mistake, the prominent motive for this murder was money.

Time for me to again take a few days off. I like the sleuthing aspect of this forum and believe it has helped this case (can anyone say wedding pictures???). I hope more sleuthing happens in the future. But I am having a hard time with some of the language and don't want to get intertwined with debates on what goes on in a victims head or in the minds and hearts of victims or victim's families. I understand the reasons and intent behind this line of thought but it doesn't really work for me. No judgment - to each his own. Thanks everyone - have a great day!

Quick question. Can someone enlighten me, do most residents in Florida buy bottled water, and of the cost? Thanks.

ETA: Disregard, found info.

HOLY COW! Way over $100!!! I don't have kindle, I ordered paperback for $6 + 3.99 shipping U.S.

I can't do audio books of any subject - I get so relaxed I dose off

LOL, actually I doZe off, but

AmazonRain said:

If it helps with the sleuthing on this case, take care when assuming what TS knew and what TS didn't know. I'm going to close this chapter by saying simply that just because MS has stated something or texted something or recorded something and if these things have been repeated - they still are more likely false than true. I have said many times over the past 11 months that TS had no idea the monster she was dealing with, she was not in fear of her life, she was not in fear for the lives of her children. She also was very open about things that bothered her, concerned her or caused her to worry. To my knowledge, there is NO ONE in Teresa's inner circle who had any idea that MS was capable of violence, let alone murder. That is the point. Teresa didn't even think he was capable of violence, nor would she have tolerated violence. So to make the jump to murder - it is incomprehensible. The singular reason why I believed MS to be behind this murder, from the very minute I heard of it, was because he was obsessed with money and control of money. I met him early in their marriage. He talked about money in every conversation I ever had with him. Make no mistake, the prominent motive for this murder was money.

Time for me to again take a few days off. I like the sleuthing aspect of this forum and believe it has helped this case (can anyone say wedding pictures???). I hope more sleuthing happens in the future. But I am having a hard time with some of the language and don't want to get intertwined with debates on what goes on in a victims head or in the minds and hearts of victims or victim's families. I understand the reasons and intent behind this line of thought but it doesn't really work for me. No judgment - to each his own. Thanks everyone - have a great day!

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AMAZON!! Thank you for sticking this it out AND FOCUSING ON THE ISSUE...TERESA NEVER THOUGHT SHE WAS IN DANGER!!! Sometimes I am slow to get the point being made, but I will keep trying to understand. Physical safety and history of domestic violence were NEVER issues. (NO bruises, NO fuses) However, his inordinate obsession with money is what made you suspect him early on. F-l-a-s-h-p-o-i-n-t...that had to be a significant obsession to make a person consider it could possibly have anything to do with a violent murder.
(Origins of "financial obsessions"? EVENTS so traumatically significant, painful and or distressing they leave an imprint that follows the individual into adulthood.)
While obvious to you (and perhaps other insiders) the significance had escaped many of us. Thank you again for taking the time to redirect our compass. IQuestion

I have followed this case from the very beginning. JUSTICE FOR TS, THE GIRLS, HER FAMILY AND FRIENDS HAS BEEN THE NUMBER ONE FOCUS. I in no way ever meant any words or phrases to be taken as being insensitive to TS or this case. <modsnip>

AmazonRain said:

If it helps with the sleuthing on this case, take care when assuming what TS knew and what TS didn't know. I'm going to close this chapter by saying simply that just because MS has stated something or texted something or recorded something and if these things have been repeated - they still are more likely false than true. I have said many times over the past 11 months that TS had no idea the monster she was dealing with, she was not in fear of her life, she was not in fear for the lives of her children. She also was very open about things that bothered her, concerned her or caused her to worry. To my knowledge, there is NO ONE in Teresa's inner circle who had any idea that MS was capable of violence, let alone murder. That is the point. Teresa didn't even think he was capable of violence, nor would she have tolerated violence. So to make the jump to murder - it is incomprehensible. The singular reason why I believed MS to be behind this murder, from the very minute I heard of it, was because he was obsessed with money and control of money. I met him early in their marriage. He talked about money in every conversation I ever had with him. Make no mistake, the prominent motive for this murder was money.

Time for me to again take a few days off. I like the sleuthing aspect of this forum and believe it has helped this case (can anyone say wedding pictures???). I hope more sleuthing happens in the future. But I am having a hard time with some of the language and don't want to get intertwined with debates on what goes on in a victims head or in the minds and hearts of victims or victim's families. I understand the reasons and intent behind this line of thought but it doesn't really work for me. No judgment - to each his own. Thanks everyone - have a great day!

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I felt the same way a few weeks ago had to back off for a while but you are so intuitive and can look out of the box so well, if you back off for a while please do not go far. I will miss you comments and statements

This situation and the murder of a brilliant, kind, generous, and funny woman is intense. Let's cut each other some slack- especially those who loved and knew her.

It's different for them- it just is and I am glad I am not in their shoes.

Maybe it's good and even necessary to step away and regroup when the stress of the discussion begins to take on a different feel. We are all here for justice- that, I do know for sure.

How about we find a way to step back and understand that all of us who are here, posting for months on end, are here because we care- especially for justice.

There was a lot of real private, intimate and painful information released in these documents- let's just agree that there is a level of sensitivity for the way it feels some of us are judging it- in their eyes.

It can be a very fine line between being grateful for VI's and unintentionally offending the sensitivities of those individuals who are close to the case or victim- and we are openly discussing the life and death of their beloved friend, Doctor, neighbor- what have you. It's gotta be hell sometimes.

I love my fellow posters, it's a great group of people here and I am proud at the level of love, understanding and commitment to what qualifies as the murder of a stranger to most of us. Please let's all of us show compassion towards each other. I don't need to be right I just want to get along and try to see this case through to a conviction for all three perpetrators. Mark first and foremost.

I adore you Lawdog- some of us don't want our motives questioned just like those who love Teresa dont want her motives or choices questioned. It goes both ways.

Cases are discussed and analyzed here intensely. That is what happens here. I guess if it is upsetting, it may not be wise to come and read here

Frigga said:

This situation and the murder of a brilliant, kind, generous, and funny woman is intense. Let's cut each other some slack- especially those who loved and knew her.

It's different for them- it just is and I am glad I am not in their shoes.

Maybe it's good and even necessary to step away and regroup when the stress of the discussion begins to take on a different feel. We are all here for justice- that, I do know for sure.

How about we find a way to step back and understand that all of us who are here, posting for months on end, are here because we care- especially for justice.

There was a lot of real private, intimate and painful information released in these documents- let's just agree that there is a level of sensitivity for the way it feels some of us are judging it- in their eyes.

It can be a very fine line between being grateful for VI's and unintentionally offending the sensitivities of those individuals who are close to the case or victim- and we are openly discussing the life and death of their beloved friend, Doctor, neighbor- what have you. It's gotta be hell sometimes.

I love my fellow posters, it's a great group People and I am proud at the level of love, understanding and commitment to what qualifies as the murder of a stranger to most of us. Please let's all of us show compassion towards each other. I don't need to be right I just want to get along and try to see this case through to a conviction for all three perpetrators. Mark first and foremost.

I adore you Lawdog- some of us don't want our motives questioned just like those who love Teresa dont want her motives or choices questioned. It goes both ways.

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Wow. Thank you. That was a good summary that kept things neutral with a understanding for all.

I was going to say something similar earlier. But I couldn't find the words. So thanks. And Justice for Teresa.

And hugs to the people on here that have been blessed to know her.

Frigga..... BRILLIANT post here @ 12:32 AM.

AmazonRain said:

If it helps with the sleuthing on this case, take care when assuming what TS knew and what TS didn't know. I'm going to close this chapter by saying simply that just because MS has stated something or texted something or recorded something and if these things have been repeated - they still are more likely false than true. I have said many times over the past 11 months that TS had no idea the monster she was dealing with, she was not in fear of her life, she was not in fear for the lives of her children. She also was very open about things that bothered her, concerned her or caused her to worry. To my knowledge, there is NO ONE in Teresa's inner circle who had any idea that MS was capable of violence, let alone murder. That is the point. Teresa didn't even think he was capable of violence, nor would she have tolerated violence. So to make the jump to murder - it is incomprehensible. The singular reason why I believed MS to be behind this murder, from the very minute I heard of it, was because he was obsessed with money and control of money. I met him early in their marriage. He talked about money in every conversation I ever had with him. Make no mistake, the prominent motive for this murder was money.

Time for me to again take a few days off. I like the sleuthing aspect of this forum and believe it has helped this case (can anyone say wedding pictures???). I hope more sleuthing happens in the future. But I am having a hard time with some of the language and don't want to get intertwined with debates on what goes on in a victims head or in the minds and hearts of victims or victim's families. I understand the reasons and intent behind this line of thought but it doesn't really work for me. No judgment - to each his own. Thanks everyone - have a great day!

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AMAZONRAIN "To my knowledge, there is NO ONE in Teresa's inner circle who had any idea that MS was capable of violence, let alone murder. That is the point. Teresa didn't even think he was capable of violence, nor would she have tolerated violence. So to make the jump to murder - it is incomprehensible. The singular reason why I believed MS to be behind this murder, from the very minute I heard of it, was because he was obsessed with money and control of money. I met him early in their marriage. He talked about money in every conversation I ever had with him. Make no mistake, the prominent motive for this murder was money."
The singular reason why I believed MS to be behind this murder, from the very minute I heard of it, was because he was obsessed with money and control of money. Please realize, in the beginning, none of us were privy to the character of MS....so "singular reason" to kill such a wife, mother, physician, community activist is difficult to grasp. It is actually the saddest and most senseless reason of all. IQ

human said:

Cases are discussed and analyzed here intensely. That is what happens here. I guess if it is upsetting, it may not be wise to come and read here

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Yes. This is what we do here... disect all aspects of the crime. It can be very difficult for insiders at times.

There is an area of WS specifically for the support of family and friends of victims. Not sure if Teresa has a thread there.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Time for a fresh Sidebar thread. I generated a new one and we'll be moving over there.

This thread will be closing in 10 minutes.

Note

Before I open the new thread I want to comment here.

One of the things that has amazed me about this forum, in particular, is the poster dynamic - the respect and compassion for each other - both toward insiders and your fellow posters not directly related. Words fail me to adequately express my pride and appreciation for all of you. You guys have nearly always expressed opinions and feelings openly and with great care.

I don't ever want anyone to feel they're walking on eggshells in here. So, don't. Just keep on keeping on expressing yourselves with the same honesty and respect that y'all always have.

Re. Insiders: I don't even know where to begin.... We have family & friends of the perp(s) AND the victim reading and posting here. Can you even begin to imagine? Think about that for just a minute. It is nothing short of miraculous that this forum has remained as civil as it has over the past year. That is because of the quality of character and restraint of everyone frequenting this forum - both insiders and the rest of us. I've been moderating a long time. More often than not, insiders don't make it for long around here. It is HARD to read others opinions/thoughts of someone you love. It's only natural to need to take a breather. Heck, insider or not - when things get too heavy, we all need to step away and regroup. It's all going to be okay. :grouphug:

Okay, I am going to give everyone a chance to read this post. I'll be back in just a few to open the new sidebar thread so we can begin afresh. I've already set out some pretty lattes for you guys.