NY-LI 10 bodies found on Beach-Poss. SrlKlr-12/10-4 id'd; more found 3/11 #11

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But I'm just trying to figure out how the body made it to Gilgo from Fire Island. I am thinking that someone must have taken a private boat from Cherry Grove to Oak Beach, loaded their car and then jumped on the Ocean Parkway for disposal.

If you are truly familiar with the Great South Bay and the logistics of the barrier Island, why would you make such a suggestion?

For starters, if someone was going to use their private boat to dispose of a body from Cherry Grove on Fire Island, wouldn't it be much easier (and much less riskier) to simply dispose of the body on one of the dozens of grassy (as well as heavily wooded) deserted islands that clutter the bay? I mean seriously, someone approaching Oak Beach by boat would not have the slightest clue who could be on the shoreline waiting to discover them unload the body.

Then there is the whole issue about "loading their car and and jumping on the Ocean Parkway". Most of the visitors to the residential parts of Fire Island arrive there by ferry (which puts their cars at the ferry terminals on the mainland). How does someone arrange to have their car transported to Oak Beach from Bay Shore, Sayville or Patchogue? Even if they did, what do they do with their boat while they are out disposing of the body on the Parkway?

Wouldn't it be easier to just drive the boat around to the Hemlock Cove/Cedar Beach Marina area of the State Boat Channel and dump the body along the parkway from the water instead of from land?

Seems like an awful lot of trouble and risk taking.
 
If you are truly familiar with the Great South Bay and the logistics of the barrier Island, why would you make such a suggestion?

For starters, if someone was going to use their private boat to dispose of a body from Cherry Grove on Fire Island, wouldn't it be much easier (and much less riskier) to simply dispose of the body on one of the dozens of grassy (as well as heavily wooded) deserted islands that clutter the bay? I mean seriously, someone approaching Oak Beach by boat would not have the slightest clue who could be on the shoreline waiting to discover them unload the body.

Then there is the whole issue about "loading their car and and jumping on the Ocean Parkway". Most of the visitors to the residential parts of Fire Island arrive there by ferry (which puts their cars at the ferry terminals on the mainland). How does someone arrange to have their car transported to Oak Beach from Bay Shore, Sayville or Patchogue? Even if they did, what do they do with their boat while they are out disposing of the body on the Parkway?

Wouldn't it be easier to just drive the boat around to the Hemlock Cove/Cedar Beach Marina area of the State Boat Channel and dump the body along the parkway from the water instead of from land?

Seems like an awful lot of trouble and risk taking.

Seaslug, I was insinuating that the killer lived in Oak Beach, took his own boat to Cherry Grove, picked up the Asian cross-dresser, killed him put him into his boat, took him back to Oak Beach, loaded him into his car and then dumped him off the Ocean Parkway east of Gilgo.

Just speculation on my part. Just trying to think of ways for a body to get from Cherry Grove to Gilgo.

It would be very easy to load a 100 pound body into a boat. Put it in one of those large fishing coolers and nobody would be the wiser. I have a 32' Albin and I am constantly loading and unloading my boat with that big fishing cooler. And nobody ever asks me whats in there.
 
True! But if he entered the US by way of human trafficking, it is possible that he lost the front tooth if he was too mouthy, or not submissive enough, or didn't do what someone wanted during a trick. How would anyone know anything about this person if he were brought into the US illegally?

I do agree that drugs run rampant in this profession, I just wonder why is he missing only the front tooth and two molars. Heck, I had four molars removed for braces. IDK much about meth mouth, but wouldn't there be more than one tooth affected by prolonged use?

wm

WM,

I'm an ER nurse and used to see a lot of meth addicts complaining of dental issues from their chronic use. Typically chronic use would cause dental "caries" that affect all the teeth. It causes the teeth to decay. It wouldn't just affect 3 teeth in the whole persons mouth. Its incredibly unsightly and looks painful.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12271905

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meth_mouth"]Meth mouth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
Thanks for the video Seaslug ... it looks a bit different from what i'm recalling, but is most likely the same one. This one that you have provided seems to have much more clarity, and I don't see anything that looks like a sheet.

You are very welcome. Here is another link for those who missed it. Notice the lack of any noticeable burlap. I still think the skeleton looks strane like it's fake.

Also, one very important clue can be seen here- notice how close to the side of the road the body was dumped?

Someone easily could have driven right up to that location. When they stated the number of feet from the road the bodies were found they failed to mention that the first ten to twenty feet was the grassy curbside. To me, I consider this body as being dumped only two or three feet from the roadside (big difference).

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DyXXURY8kHy8%26feature%3Dplayer_embedded&feature=player_embedded&v=yXXURY8kHy8&gl=US
 
WM,

I'm an ER nurse and used to see a lot of meth addicts complaining of dental issues from their chronic use. Typically chronic use would cause dental "caries" that affect all the teeth. It causes the teeth to decay. It wouldn't just affect 3 teeth in the whole persons mouth. Its incredibly unsightly and looks painful.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12271905

Meth mouth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Right. But individual teeth don't fall out at the same rate. I've seen a number of cases of meth mouth where there is a mouthful of decay, but often with only a few teeth missing. And for some reason, it seems like the front teeth are usually the first to go.

JMO
 
Meth is not really that common here on Long Island. The big drugs here are heroin, cocaine, marijuana, and abuse of illegally obtained prescription medication.

I also believe the Asian male was likely an illegal immigrant. We have a very large number of illegal immigrants out here and in the city ... and not just Hispanics. Unfortunately the immigrant community (legal and illegal) in the heavily Asian parts of Queens are not exactly open with law enforcement.
 
Meth is not really that common here on Long Island. The big drugs here are heroin, cocaine, marijuana, and abuse of illegally obtained prescription medication.

I also believe the Asian male was likely an illegal immigrant. We have a very large number of illegal immigrants out here and in the city ... and not just Hispanics. Unfortunately the immigrant community (legal and illegal) in the heavily Asian parts of Queens are not exactly open with law enforcement.

Hi WI1987,

I would love to know if you have any insight on JB. Thanks.
 
And for some reason, it seems like the front teeth are usually the first to go.

JMO

Often after getting smacked in the mouth for stealing something off of someone. Although other drugs don't decay your teeth like meth does so rapidly and severly I've seen even heroin addicts missing a front tooth or two. You don't take care of yourself and mess with nasty people you're liable to miss a tooth.

A bit back someone asked where five to ten years ago would someone find a TV Asian prostitute. It'd be as easy as looking in the back of an alt-weekly newspaper or just knowing where to look period. If we have it where I'm from and Boston has it no doubt NY sure does and did. Not to mention the involvement of Asian gangs. Drugs, and prostitution are rampant.

I feel very sad for the young Asian man.
 
OK, I like where you're going with this, Watchman. So where does someone even find a transvestite 5-10 years ago?

If you're right about the connection, it's possible that the M.O. in this case was either Craigslist or AOL chat rooms (I'm saying AOL because it used to be called "GAY-OL" referring to the gay community that used the chat rooms to hook up). AOL was really popular 10 years ago, maybe even more than Craigslist for the alternative lifestyle crowd.

Ever since I heard that the victim was a man in woman's clothing, I assumed that what happened was someone tried hooking up with a transvestite and got totally freaked out and bashed their head in. There could definitely be a religious connection too in addition to a sexual orientation issue (i.e., a Catholic raised with the strong fear of going to hell, etc.). Maybe that's why now they kill fornicating "*advertiser censored*".

I'd say the biggest, closest "alternative lifestyle" Asian population in Brooklyn or Queens, which is likely (IMO) where this victim came from.

From the little, we heard about the phone calls made to Melissa Barthelmy's sister, the killer used rants like Melissa was a *advertiser censored* and her way of life brought her to hell and threatened the sister it would be the same for her. I don't know how far I can trust those bits and pieces from the media reports, but if, then the male Asian would fit exactly in this picture, because the hell reference has also a clear religious aspect. Religion combined with suppressed sexuality or suppressed parts of it can have such effects.
 
Might be nothing, but ... was going through crankycrankerson's album and came across this pic of JB's house. The car in the background caught my eye because Kim Raffo (one of the AC victims) was last been seen getting into a black Nissan Maxima. This may or may not be a Maxima, but sure looks like one to me:

http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/...Y-/?action=view&current=121510BrewerHome2.jpg

"nissan maxima" - Google Search


BTW, mucho thanks to cranky for such a fabulous resource !!

Similiar shape, same color, but according to the logo on the trunk, it's a Chevy.
 
Seaslug, I was insinuating that the killer lived in Oak Beach, took his own boat to Cherry Grove, picked up the Asian cross-dresser, killed him put him into his boat, took him back to Oak Beach, loaded him into his car and then dumped him off the Ocean Parkway east of Gilgo.

Just speculation on my part. Just trying to think of ways for a body to get from Cherry Grove to Gilgo.

It would be very easy to load a 100 pound body into a boat. Put it in one of those large fishing coolers and nobody would be the wiser. I have a 32' Albin and I am constantly loading and unloading my boat with that big fishing cooler. And nobody ever asks me whats in there.

I like to look at it from the behavioral point of view. The GB4 were dumped in one very specific area in one very specific way. The Manorville victims were cut to pieces, which establishes also "one very specific way". This Asian crossdresser doesn't fit either. So either, he is entirely unconnected, or, what appears to me the more probable theory, he sold himself as woman and the killer found out about, when he was already heated up. Disgust and disappointment culminate in a quick kill (aka head bashed in). But then, the killer has there a body and regardless, which of them it was, the problem is the same. It's some kind of "not counting" kill. The LISK2 couldn't put the body just in his little collection on the beach. The Manorville killer couldn't just go on with the dismembering part of his ritual. The ritual was broken because the victim didn't fit. So, what was left to do? Just drop the body somewhere, where there is no connection to the other victims (which is, why I think, the Asian is maybe a mistake of the LISK2 rather than Manorville).
 
WM,

I'm an ER nurse and used to see a lot of meth addicts complaining of dental issues from their chronic use. Typically chronic use would cause dental "caries" that affect all the teeth. It causes the teeth to decay. It wouldn't just affect 3 teeth in the whole persons mouth. Its incredibly unsightly and looks painful.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12271905

Meth mouth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

... and it would make it more probably, that teeth, especially front teeth break during a beating. The ME should be able to figure out whether there was a removal of root remains or not. But unfortunately, such details will LE not tell us.
 
Watchman, you have pretty well summed up my view of the situation. The only point I might disagree is that I don't believe the Asian Male had anything to do with the others. What really connects the GB4 to all of the others is that Ocean Parkway is a very good place to dispose of a body. I think the same can be said to Manorville.

LI is very developed with a population of 7.5 million. There are bound to be murderers looking for dumpsites and limited places where a body can quickly and easily be concealed. It stands to reason that more than one murderer (not necessarily serial killers) would pick the same stretch of Highway.

Anyone who has followed some of the better know serial killer cases would know that "dump sites" are often the area that one would first come to after driving out of a metro area, that offer a secluded spot to pull off the road, brush or other vegetation to conceal the body, and no obvious reason that anyone would spend any time in that area.

I think Ocean Parkway was just a suitable spot that at least 4 murders discovered over a period of at least 10 years.

kemo-

Think about this- what if you replace "Asian male" with female prostitute in this discussion. A fifth female found directly in the cluster of the GB4. Would you then suspect the cases are related?

If you do, then I don't think you should completely discount my theory. The killer of the GB4 is likely to have deep sexual identity and anger issues, and a cross dressing male may be someone he would encounter, intentially or otherwise, in his lifestyle.

This is just the way I'm thinking, waiting for more information to come in.

The Night Watchman
 
kemo-

Think about this- what if you replace "Asian male" with female prostitute in this discussion. A fifth female found directly in the cluster of the GB4. Would you then suspect the cases are related?

If you do, then I don't think you should completely discount my theory. The killer of the GB4 is likely to have deep sexual identity and anger issues, and a cross dressing male may be someone he would encounter, intentially or otherwise, in his lifestyle.

This is just the way I'm thinking, waiting for more information to come in.

The Night Watchman

But as far as I read, the COD is different. Blunt force trauma, is that correct? Now, that doesn't mean 100% this case is connected or unconnected, but lets speculate a moment:
What, if the killer has NO deep sitting sexual identity issues. In this case, finding out, the girl he expected is a male, would react with disgust and rage. It would be a fast uncontrolled kill, for example by blunt trauma to the head. By my experience, there is a subtle difference in the behavior shown by the killing method and thus, I plead to make a difference between the words "power" and "control". Beatings, including kill by beating on the head, is power assurance/power gain. Typically, we would find that method of killing in disorganized or temporary raging serial killers. Take Ted Bundy as an example (I love him as example because everybody knows something about that case): Some of his vicitms were strangled, others beaten to death. But if you hold the timeline of his normal life against the timeline of his murders, you can see, that he usually beat his victims to death in phases, in which his regular life was rather chaotic and, of course, in the times of his spiraling down (that includes specifically the Sigma Chi murders). Means, there are serial killers known changing especially between beating to death and strangling, and the reason why those appear sometimes less organized is rage, but it is normally temporary rage unless you deal with someone really on the absolute low end of the organization scale.
Strangling on the other hand is more common. BTK, Bundy, the Hillside Stranglers ... all stranglers. Strangling is control assurance/control gain. It alows to control the death of the victim, it is a lot more upfront than beating. The difference between power and control is, power is the "cure" against feelings of helplessness or rage, control points rather to sadists or deeper sitting inferiority complexes. At least in serial killers. Spree killers with inferiority complexes, due to the shorter time/kill ratio go normally for firearms and force their victims in kneeling positions (the equivalent for SKs for such poses is staging as for example in at least one of Alcala's murders).
So, pure from the behavioral point of view, I think, your theory is possible, but the rush kill of the male doesn't point to sexual identification problems but rather to disgust because this guy knows exactly what his sexual orientation is and felt disgusted.
 
....So, pure from the behavioral point of view, I think, your theory is possible, but the rush kill of the male doesn't point to sexual identification problems but rather to disgust because this guy knows exactly what his sexual orientation is and felt disgusted.

SBM - Welcome to all of our new members, and I am so sorry I have been missing lately (lay off's at work - I am OK; just new job duties in ADDITION to my old ones - bleh!!!). I TOTALLY agree with Peter's analysis of the Asian male. That was my first thought when I heard about an Asian male body dressed in women's clothing! I think the SK picked this guy up, and I bet he went ape poop over finding out his "date" was a guy.
 
I just wanted to share this...Its a blog from the poster "Jim Jones" from the Long Island Serial Killer Website. I believe he is unrelated to the victims, but like us and so many others, he has become entwined in this case, and he has direct contact with SG's family. He describes a trip he, SG's mother and a couple others took to OB where they encountered CPH and his fam...pretty interesting stuff and it confirms a bunch of things we were previously not 100% about, i.e. the leg, his daughter's home and job, his phone conversations, etc. Worth the read.

http://jjfieldnotes.blogspot.com/
 
Very interesting article, man on death row in CT home invasion rape and strangle case writes letters he has killed many more along the Northeast. Also, described taking victims shoes to fulfill a fetish/fantasy. Maybe not Gilgo, but looks like a possible connection to AC?

http://www.northjersey.com/news/cri...asion_co-defendant_claims_other_killings.html

Good find, NJGuy!!! Hmmm! Sounds like someone is talking about the other's stuff to save his butt, doesn't it? The foot fetish thing may also apply to the LI feet that washed up with partially painted toenails too!

This should be posted on the AC victims thread also. MOO.

I try and post it there a bit later if noone else has the time to do so. REal life is interfering with my sleuth time.:waitasec:

wm
 
Thanks for this NJGuy, thats is a scary connection to AC...I have followed this case a little. Totally frightening pair, Hayes was a crack addict and the two met in a halfway house and totally picked the victim and random and had originally planned to only rob them, but one guy decided to rape the 11 year old and so Hayes raped the mother, to make them even. Then they set the house on fire and would've killed the whole family if the father hadn't escaped. So sad...

apparently during Hayes sentencing, his little brother testified that Hayes tortured him as a child, by burning him and stuff, so he has had psychotic tendencies for some time. this home invasion actually happened after AC though and according to all accounts, it doesnt appear Hayes was the one who went in there with the intention of sexual assault, but was only spurred on by the act of his co-conspirator...
 
Thanks for this NJGuy, thats is a scary connection to AC...I have followed this case a little. Totally frightening pair, Hayes was a crack addict and the two met in a halfway house and totally picked the victim and random and had originally planned to only rob them, but one guy decided to rape the 11 year old and so Hayes raped the mother, to make them even. Then they set the house on fire and would've killed the whole family if the father hadn't escaped. So sad...

apparently during Hayes sentencing, his little brother testified that Hayes tortured him as a child, by burning him and stuff, so he has had psychotic tendencies for some time. this home invasion actually happened after AC though and according to all accounts, it doesnt appear Hayes was the one who went in there with the intention of sexual assault, but was only spurred on by the act of his co-conspirator...

Thanks for your knowledge on the case Ashley123!

wm
 
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