Trial Discussion Thread #2 - 14.03.07, Day 5

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Reeva's phone could have been pulled out of the toilet room as a Oscar was pulling her out as well.

A-Ha!
Okay, so that makes sense. The phones could have been charging in the bathroom , proper.

So they were not in the john box... or whatever... that is helpful. See>? What would I do without you...(smile)
Not such a precious key, after all.

I think the state needs to be careful. Putting up witnesses that tell tales of OP involving his gun does not make him guilty. I just hope this is a brief interlude, and they get back to good stuff, like the security guard, that is great insight!

"No, everything is fine," he states OP told him. Rrrreally ???

We have the door, and we wait for that.

I am not really impressed with "THE LADY," notice how the advocates have to keep order in the court-room; reminding witnesses to speak as it is being recorded, etc, while she just sits there -

Makes me sick to my stomach to think that ONE PERSON will make the call. I see she has a person on either side of her... and she swore them in :
"are you willing to take the oat (as in oath) and make a decision based upon the facts of the evidence?" So, is this a three headed monster>?

Do tell,,, (thank you)

Love ya,

.G
 
But remember, ST did testify that OP always woke her first if he thought he heard something in the house.....asking if she heard the same.

That she KNOWS of, how many times did OP get up in the night and check all was ok without waking her up. It is possible that he didn't find the need to wake her every single time he got up to check security and then tell her about it the next morning.
 
I agree with you about perceptions. For those of us on the outside looking in on this case, we form our opinions based on our life experience as well as the available information.

Regarding ST: she reported what she personally experienced during the time she dated OP.

At this point, I have been provided with no information that would cause me to doubt her testimony, therefore, at this point I trust the veracity of her statements.

On the other hand, witnesses have provided testimony that has cast shadows on OP's trustworthiness.

Kevin Lerena (pro boxer & friend of OP) testified that after the accidental firing of the gun in the restaurant, OP asked his friend to take the blame.

This demonstrates to me that OP is prone to lying to avoid facing the consequences for his actions.

Furthermore, when Pieter Baba (security guard @ the estate) phoned OP shortly after OP had shot and killed Reeva, OP told Baba that "Everything is fine". Not only was everything NOT fine, everything was, in fact, disastrous.

If anyone's credibility is in question, it is the credibility of Oscar Pistorius.



<<<<<|||||||||||||||\ CLIPPED---->
This demonstrates to me that OP is prone to lying to avoid facing the consequences for his actions.


Very nice. You good. (smile)

-.G
 
It is very difficult to square Oscar's alleged cries for help with "Everything is fine" when he had a chance to directly get it. Roux will have to explain that, to say the least.

I believe you have hit the proverbial nail on the head.
 
On Gun Shots and “Bat Shots”

This mostly pertains to Dr. Stipp’s recollections of 2 alleged volleys of 3 shots each and some general info.

“Bat shots’ is a term someone here used. Not me, but I thank whoever coined it, as the term incorporates its own lack of credibility.

Stipp was awoken by the first set of alleged shots. He could be mistaken as to the # of shots he heard, or there could be echoes involved, or something else going on. To me, it is possible that his first volley of 3 shots heard were one shot and 2 echoes—accounting for 4 shots totally fired (allegedly).

As I noted several times, gunshots incorporate sonic booms, unlike “bat shots.’

In short, despite Roux trying to “put it to us” that the witnesses all heard “bat shots”, I have no trouble understanding that (depending on the state of the bathroom windows perhaps) none of the earwitnesses heard bat strikes, as I think its decibel level will be far lower than the gunshots.

Again the rapidity, reported by the witnesses, of the shots also makes it likely these were gunshots, not cricket bat shots.

Also the wood-on-wood sound should be distinct enough so that witnesses would have said they heard sounds attributed to such “bat shots”. None did apparently.

I have raised the possibility that I may not agree with both versions of events after they are laid out.

But both sides will present their forensics and ballistics and maybe audio evidence in the coming days and weeks, so I will reserve judgment.

But we should not accept ipso facto that earwitnesses heard any “batshots” just because Roux (or anyone else) says so.
 
I would just like to say here that as a non-driver myself when I am a passenger in a car, I pay no attention to where we are or the route taken...and I don't know the roads or districts well at all where I live for this reason even though I have lived here for a number of years. I didn't find anything odd about this part of her evidence at all :) I do, however agree strongly with a point you made in another post, that they seem to skirt over some apparently important questions and go into other apparently trivial points in tedious drawn out detail...quite baffling at times, and certainly frustrating.
Ahh, yes, ok, definitely possible then :) and I guess considering her age. Her mother must have liked OP at some stage thou for allowing her 17 year old daughter to regularly sleep over at his house. Btw, age of consent here is 16 and you can get a drivers licence when you are 18 so I'm assume ST was not even driving at this stage.
 
Did anybody catch how long Dr. Stipp estimated between the two sets of sounds?
 
I think the evidence that shows both mobile phones in the bathroom speaks volumes- and represents a key here- a key we can use to unlock the mystery box containing the truth behind what actually took place that Valentines Day... a day lovers seek to confirm the commitment of their loved one.

snipped.....

Two Phones in the bathroom - this is - "what I am going to put to you," can you reflect upon this?

Clearly, OP was in a rage -

Clearly, Reeva had locked herself in the loo... with both phones.

But why?

your thoughts

If she took his, it had been to look at the activity. She takes hers to keep OP from doing the stumps, uhhh, I mean, same.

I don't see him flipping out because she is contacting someone in his phone... I think he was the lucky one, but I may be wrong, as the GF today cried when she referenced the "cheat" that terminated their relationship.

Maybe you can help me... why the two phones?

"Just hours before Oscar Pistorius shot his model girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp, the Blade Runner was surfing internet *advertiser censored* sites on his mobile phone."

"More leaked evidence states that Steenkamp took her cell phones with her into the toilet with her and that she was clothed; standing upright and facing the door at the time she was shot."

http://www.graziadaily.co.za/hot-stories/oscar-pistorius-state-evidence-leaked/
 
Regarding the 2 iphones found near the loo, don't forget, one (allegedly) had blood spatter on it.
 
It is very difficult to square Oscar's alleged cries for help with "Everything is fine" when he had a chance to directly get it. Roux will have to explain that, to say the least.

This is an excellent point!
 
Roux has a difficult job because the holes that he is poking cannot just be looked at on their own, they have to be viewed in the context of all the other witnesses as well. When you consider it globally, and if you try to reconcile all of the witnesss' testimony with each other, it really does line up with Oscar's own statement.

There is nothing that suggests premeditation. Let me see if I can give you an example of what I mean:

First of all, the most reliable statements from the witnesses are going to be the statements they gave shortly after the event, while it was fresh in their minds and all they were reporting were facts of what they witnessed. Many of the witnesses have now come to court and have embellished and added "emotional" information that was not in their original statements. I think you have to discount those additions.

Shipp

He is the closest of the witnesses and had a direct line to Oscar's house via his open balcony.

1. He heard 3 "shots" and got up and went to balcony to see where it was coming from

2. On balcony, he heard a woman "screaming or yelling" 2 or 3 times

3. At 3:17 (verified by phone records) he heard "2 or 3" additional "shots"

4. At 3:27, he called security again

5. After his 3:27 call to security, he THEN heard Oscar yell "help, help, help"

6. At 3:28 he phoned Stander from Oscar's house.

Although his testimony included the an additional claim to have heard a man's screams intermingled with a woman's screams between the first and second set of bangs, this is no in either of his statements to police given on 2-15-13 and 3-18-13

I consider Shipp's testimony to be the most reliable because he is close by and would have had the best opportunity to hear what happened. He also gave a written statement on 2-15-13, before the bail hearing and before an opportunity to be influenced by media or other witness accounts, etc

Burger and Johnson

1. Heard a woman screaming and were woken up by the sound

2. They heard "help help help" -before the sounds they interpreted as gunshots

3. Heard a number of "gunshots" at 3:17, coinciding perfectly with the second set of bangs heard by Shipp and his wife. At the time they gave their written statements, neither of them could identify the number of "shots" as 4, contrary to Burger's court testimony

4. They did not hear any other sets of bangs.

While they both claim at trial that the woman's screams were "blood-curdling" and the woman was "in fear for her life" that was not in either of their statements to police.

They did not come forward until after listening to the bail hearing. They did not give a statement to police until 6 weeks after the events. Their testimony is the most suspect because of the timing and the ability to be influenced by each other and by media accounts. There's also a problem with their testimony changing in important aspects compared to Johnson's written notes and statements.

Werwe

1. She heard a woman's voice that sounded like one side of an argument around 2 a.m. It has not been established that this was coming from Oscar's house.

2. She heard what sounded like gunshots, and then she heard loud crying and yelling from Oscar - she initially thought it was a woman screaming, but her husband identified the voice as Oscar Pistorius

I believe that she was being honest and factual in her testimony. She did not try to interpret what anything meant, she simply reported what she heard.

So you try to reconcile all of these accounts with each other and what you are left with is -

- Shipp was woken up by the actual gunshots some time before 3:17;

- the noises at 3:17 were the sounds of the cricket bat hitting the door (Shipp said they sounded the same, so it's no longer in dispute whether a cricket bat hitting the door can sound like a gunshot);

- the screaming and yelling between the initial gunshots and the banging at 3:17 was Oscar screaming and crying loudly. This was heard by all 4 witnesses, all of whom believed it to be a woman screaming

- Oscar yelled help, help, help after he broke the door with the cricket bat
Where does the 3.20am phone call for help to netcare from OP fit it??

#OscarPistorius Roux looked at phone calls - Oscar called Netcare at 3:20am. BB
 
Ahh, yes, ok, definitely possible then :) and I guess considering her age. Her mother must have liked OP at some stage thou for allowing her 17 year old daughter to regularly sleep over at his house. Btw, age of consent here is 16 and you can get a drivers licence when you are 18 so I'm assume ST was not even driving at this stage.

Ah but then you countered your own point, Carol.
If age of consent is 16, Sam did not need her parents approval to "be" with OP.

I cannot wait to hear the testimony of your good friend, Mark Batchelor [j/k]

How are your electric generators doing in that failed country of yours? [j/k]
:)
 
My apologies in advance but I'm just responding from where I left off last night and see I'm answering posts that already have been answered by others as I go along! 'Blush' :)
 
Where does the 3.20am phone call for help to netcare from OP fit it??

If Oscar called Netcare at 3:20 that might explain him claiming "Everything is fine." to security subsequently I suppose. We already have testimony that he seeks to avoid negative attention and it may have been his instinct to limit his exposure, however non-sensical and hopeless in reality.
 
Where does the 3.20am phone call for help to netcare from OP fit it??

I guess that would have been a couple of minutes after he broke the door down. I missed that in the trial
 
If Oscar called Netcare at 3:20 that might explain him claiming "Everything is fine." to security subsequently I suppose. We already have testimony that he seeks to avoid negative attention and it may have been his instinct to limit his exposure, however non-sensical and hopeless in reality.

??
The everything is fine statement occurred several minutes before the alleged netcare call.
 
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