Cheri Jo Bates...Zodiac Victim or not?

Interesting!
Ive always felt in my heart she was a Zodiac victim especially looking at the letters.
I think possibly Zodiac was afraid he was too personally involved with the Riverside killing and hadnt CYA'd enough so he didnt immediatly connect it to his Vallejo string of murders.
But by the time Paul Avery made the connection I think Zodiac was afraid some of his marquee power was fading with the papers and his ego made him take credit for it.

Might be a good idea to try and use this point as a starting block. Men connected to her school and college might throw up a candidate that at the time was on the perimeter but could now be important if indeed he went on to be the Z.

Edited to add
A friend of mine many years ago got into a fight and got a black eye and bloody lip. He was too ashamed to go to work (as he worked in an office and had to see well to do customers)
He took 3 weeks off work for the injuries to disappear. Maybe Z waited a month before sending the first of his letters because Cheri Jo had infact given him some facial injuries.
 
Given that hair color changes over time, and with exposure to sun light, and given the problems of subjective perceptions of color and word meanings, I can give a little slack to RPD for saying the hair was "sandy blonde", which happens to match local suspect "Barnett", while the FBI report says it is "brown."

More troubling is that even after the DNA comparison which excludes Barnett, the RPD still kept the focus on him as a suspect, and refused to pursue the possible Zodiac connection to the case. I can personally state that in 2009 and 2010 Detective Steve Shumway of the RPD refused to look at or consider evidence pointing to the Zodiac as the killer of Cheri.

I am not going to contact RPD at this time. I will try to get other Zodiac and EAR/ONS investigators to access the actual mtDNA results for comparison purposes. Now that I have a case# and lab# that will be a little easier.

Also the report indicates FOUR hairs found on the blod clot in Cheri's hand. IMO it could be possible ONE hair came from a police officer or lab tech. But not FOUR hairs on a BLOOD CLOT.

IMO these hairs are from the killer, and the killer was almost certainly Zodiac. I want to get this mtDNA compared to my POI's mtDNA, that from other good suspects and to any mtDNA from other possibly related unsolved crimes like EAR/ONS and Percy. Thanks Morf you gave me more work to do! But it just may lead to a breakthrough, I am going to try anyway.

I see that a person claiming the whole Zodiac case is a hoax says the mtDNA used to compare to local suspect 'Barnett' was aged and faulty. These reports show that is false as they show a good sample was obtained and Barnett was conclusively cleared as a nonmatch. Also for those who say the hair in Chei's hand could have come from a cop that seems highly unlikely as these reports show it was actually FOUR hairs in a blood clot.

The handwriting, letter, word usage, spelling, MO and circumstantial evidence IMO shows Zodiac very likely killed Bates.

Then we have the early reports from the RPD that say the confession letter writer was the killer because he knew details that had not been released, then years later when a jailhouse informant turned them onto Barnett, they backtracked on everything pointing to Zodiac and said all the letters came from cranks.

Go to google and type in "jailhouse informant" and "wrongful conviction".

California just signed a law barring jailhouse snitch testinmony unless it is backed by physical evidence, because false testimony from jailhouse informants have been responsible for hundreds of false convictions. Of all the convictions overturned by new DNA evidence, at least 15% were found to have involved utterly false and invented testimony from jailhouse informants or informants seeking to reduce charges or prison time.

Was Barnett really playing basketball and then Cheri called him, and then did he really shout out "That ***** is going to the library!" I say no way. False story by a jailhouse informant. It makes no sense at all. Its contrived and melodramatic and rings false. Why would she tell him she was at the library? Why would he care? Why would he shout it out for several people to hear? Why did nobody else report this? Why did Cheri herself never reveal any concerns about Barnett? Why did no other friends of Cheri or Barnett ever report any of this?

For me personally these reports show that the four hairs in a blood clot almost certainly were from Cheri's killer, the killer was not Barnett, and since all the other evidence in the case IMO points strongly to Zodiac as the probable killer, that means for me these hairs and this mtDNA are very likley from Zodiac. I am going to use what contacts I have and what energy I can muster to try to get them compared to Kaczynski, other good POI's and DNA from other unsolved cases. I think this is the best evidence we have.

Also in regards to the evidence pointing to the Zodiac Killer/Ted Kaczynski as a suspect in the Tylenol Murders, if the FBI wants to actually solve that case they could easily compare the DNA here in the Bates case, which is very likely the genetic profile of the Zodiac Killer (and IMO also Ted Kaczynski), to the DNA they have in the Tylenol case.











 
Hey guys, found some handwriting I think looks similar to both the Cheri Jo Bates letters and the Zodiac letters. It's from a letter written by Martin Ray Smartt. The pictures are here, http://www.keddiemurdersfilm.com/gallery/Case Files/index.html . He is a suspect in the Keddie case. According to the "Marty" timeline at the keddie site, http://www.keddiemurdersfilm.com/timeline.php Aged 17, he married 07-24-66 in Imperial County,Ca. Then he and his wife have 3 kids between 67-71, all born in San Bernardino,Ca. Then after returning from Vietnam in 69 he moved to Pheonix. Not sure about the timeline?
letter_envelope.jpg love_note.jpg post_it_note.jpg
Cheri_Jo_Bates_-_Riverside_Joseph_Bates_April_30_1967_letter.jpg Cheri_Jo_Bates_-_Riverside_Police_Department_April_30_1967_letter.jpg
Not sure if i've picked the best Bates samples, and could'nt fit any Zodiac samples but i'm sure you've got your own.
I just think the writing is similar, and he appears to have been living in the general vicinity, at the right time.(for Bates)
Just wanted to share :seeya:
 
Good find, but wouldn't that put him out of the area at the time of occurance with the other suspected Zodiac crimes?( am am confident he killed the # of people he claimed to have killed, putting him on the scale of Gary Ridgeway)
I have often considered that the Zodic had a few admirers and that a few of the crimes could have been copy cats.
I have a suspect who is sixty four, vary capable(as I watched him swim acroos a category 3 river), so I have no doubt he would/could still be alive and able to kill.
Chery Jo Bates I think is one of the strongest links, as her father worked at an ordinance factory...and that zodiac sign may represent the sights/view of a gunship(this connection also is a kenning in Norse and may identify my suspect by name-KEN). I am most confident that the Zodiac used runes and multiple meanings of things in his letters and am concentating on finding clues within the letters themselves.
I notices that your yellow envelope is not plastered with extra stamps....that was one of the letters you speak of, but not sure it was a Zodiac letter(from the guy claiming to be the zodiac).
Please read the Zodiac Name post please, I need some help in determining if I am actually cracking the code. I believe I am on the right track.

Hey guys, found some handwriting I think looks similar to both the Cheri Jo Bates letters and the Zodiac letters. It's from a letter written by Martin Ray Smartt. The pictures are here, http://www.keddiemurdersfilm.com/gallery/Case Files/index.html . He is a suspect in the Keddie case. According to the "Marty" timeline at the keddie site, http://www.keddiemurdersfilm.com/timeline.php Aged 17, he married 07-24-66 in Imperial County,Ca. Then he and his wife have 3 kids between 67-71, all born in San Bernardino,Ca. Then after returning from Vietnam in 69 he moved to Pheonix. Not sure about the timeline?
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Not sure if i've picked the best Bates samples, and could'nt fit any Zodiac samples but i'm sure you've got your own.
I just think the writing is similar, and he appears to have been living in the general vicinity, at the right time.(for Bates)
Just wanted to share :seeya:
 
@extrachewwy:
Your letter from the perp you speak of is indeed a close match to Zodiac writting in my HO.
I never considered really a legion of killers working for satan at the same time, but the more I study this case, the deeper it goes, connecting to hundreds of crimes and perps in that area of time.
The yellow forgive me letter...where is the link for that one?This one I do not think is ZODIAC himself, but rather a folower who coppied Zodiac(by the tone) I do not think Zodiac is sorry.

I looked at picture #43 and think it is possible to be a zodiac writting match( I would rate your match a 9.5 of 10. But there are a few Zodiac letters that I am suspicious to be of other authors. Maybe there was a group of killers. I often think there may have been an SLA connections deeper than the public was aware of.
I have been looking into my suspects hometown data, and found his highschool town had a letter sent from the Zodiac(pleasanton). He is from Oakland, at least his public share dinfo says so. I think this chance of finding this coincidence only fuels my fire and passion thats burning to make this Zodiac pay for what he did to women. I really hope to get in contact with an active detective on this case, but feel that Zodiac has some kind of illusive power that makes him not a top notch priority. (its been 3+ days and no reply)
A weird movie idea I came across almost seems real...it called the 'Scorpion 7' and how the ZODIAC is a world leader and tyrant making many his slaves,but I never read it or watched it, I just looked at the title and description. Very weird.I suspect many know his real identity and that him and satan are one in the same somehow.
 
BUMP, before you know it, it will be the 47th anniversary of Cheri Jo's Murder. Zodiac Killer or not,I want to see this case solved
 
Anyone still interested in getting into this. I did get ahold of information on the wounds, etc. and some autopsy info, and everything indicates to me that they were left handed. Or, at least had the knife in their left hand during the attack on her. I can refind the details, and there are many.
 
I would love to know, please share
 
Relative to the Cheri Jo Bates (CJB) case, I can say, unequivocally and confidently, that Ms bates was a victim of the ZODIAC. In fact, the ZODIAC (who calls himself "John") was so obsessed with Ms Bates that detailed letters sent to police, and centered around her murder, were never read.

There are many, many elements to the Bates homicide that have never been released to the general public. This is their 'validation' information - things that only the killer and the police would know.

It is primarily Ms Bates case that compelled me to join this forum. I need to understand why John was so obsessed with this young lady.
 
Anyone still interested in getting into this. I did get ahold of information on the wounds, etc. and some autopsy info, and everything indicates to me that they were left handed. Or, at least had the knife in their left hand during the attack on her. I can refind the details, and there are many.


Please consider stopping by Nikki Benedict's forum... it seems that she too could have been a zodiac victim
[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9912996"]CA CA - Nikki Alexandra Benedict, 14, Poway, 1 May 1967 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
 
also, I would really like to see all of the autopsy information + especially to see what knife was used, and whether it was similar to the one that killed Nikki Benedict.
 
Slicky Boy;9908653
Relative to the Cheri Jo Bates (CJB) case, I can say, unequivocally and confidently, that Ms bates was a victim of the ZODIAC. In fact, [/B]the ZODIAC (who calls himself "John") was so obsessed with Ms Bates that detailed letters sent to police, and centered around her murder, were never read.


<modsnip>

I have never been 100% convinced that Bates was a Zodiac victim. Like most serial killers I think many people try to link many unsolved crimes to the Zodiac and some of those, IMO, are real stretches. However, I do conisider Bates to be one of the more realistic attempts to connect the Zodiac. It seems to me it could well have some hallmarks of his crimes when he was possibly still in the early stages of his murderous career. The symbols on the cars, the scary costume, etc. all being effects added later for greater dramatic flair.
 
The Bates Case is a good candidate for Zodiac but, if I was going to handicap it, I would only put the murder at about 40%. The reason I say that is because I don't believe Zodiac mentioned Bates until someone else brought her up and, knowing that he took "pride" in his actions, I would have expected him to mention her in the first communication.
 
The Bates Case is a good candidate for Zodiac but, if I was going to handicap it, I would only put the murder at about 40%. The reason I say that is because I don't believe Zodiac mentioned Bates until someone else brought her up and, knowing that he took "pride" in his actions, I would have expected him to mention her in the first communication.

The fact that the date of her death wasn't put on the car at the Lake Berryessa killing along with the Jensen, Ferrin & Shephard killings, leads me to believe that she was not a Zodiac victim.
 
The fact that the date of her death wasn't put on the car at the Lake Berryessa killing along with the Jensen, Ferrin & Shephard killings, leads me to believe that she was not a Zodiac victim.

I have never believed she was a Zodiac Victim. There is a tend among many Zodiac researchers to try to tie any victim that can be made to stretch into possible Zodiac Terriorty, fit.

I tend to think the Zodiac killings begin and end wih the confirmed attacks. 4 attacks, 3 couples and Stine. Three dead and 2 wounded and an entire State scared spitless at the time. JMO.

An enduring mystery that I am relatively certain will now never be solved as I believe Zodiac is most likely dead by now.
 
There is a tend among many Zodiac researchers to try to tie any victim that can be made to stretch into possible Zodiac Terriorty, fit.

Not all of us try to make every crime 'fit' Zodiac. In the Bates case, we had a letter writer send multiple taunting letters to the newspapers and police, asking that they be published,which fits Zodiac. The letter writer also claims that they made a call to police after the murder,which also fits Zodiac. Bates was murdered with a knife, and Zodiac used a knife at one of his attacks, most people seem to think of him strictly as a shooter at lover's lanes. Most compelling of all, the state writing examiner that handled the Zodiac letters, reviewed the Bates case letters, and desktop poem in the Bates case, and concluded that the bates case writings were "unquestionably" the work of Zodiac. I agree with him. Whether or not, Zodiac killed Bates is up for debate,but I think he defintely wrote the letters in her case, and that is a major clue to his identity. If he did, then the Zodiac had to have been down in Riverside in 66-67,so we can rlikely rule out many suspects that were not
 
Not all of us try to make every crime 'fit' Zodiac. In the Bates case, we had a letter writer send multiple taunting letters to the newspapers and police, asking that they be published,which fits Zodiac. The letter writer also claims that they made a call to police after the murder,which also fits Zodiac. Bates was murdered with a knife, and Zodiac used a knife at one of his attacks, most people seem to think of him strictly as a shooter at lover's lanes. Most compelling of all, the state writing examiner that handled the Zodiac letters, reviewed the Bates case letters, and desktop poem in the Bates case, and concluded that the bates case writings were "unquestionably" the work of Zodiac. I agree with him. Whether or not, Zodiac killed Bates is up for debate,but I think he defintely wrote the letters in her case, and that is a major clue to his identity. If he did, then the Zodiac had to have been down in Riverside in 66-67,so we can rlikely rule out many suspects that were not

I agree with this. The other thing that really cinches it for me is that Bates' killer's letters were sent with double postage--two stamps instead of one--and all the subsequent Zodiac letter were double-posted the same way. That is TOO much to be a coincidence. I can agree that it's possible Zodiac didn't kill Bates (though I think he did) but he definitely wrote the letters. His failure to mention the murder on the side of the car at Lake Berryessa only means he did not want that one known to the public--possibly he feared he left behind evidence that could be linked to him or he did not have a strong connection to being Zodiac yet and considered it a non-Zodiac killing, a practice killing, so to speak.
 
I should also point out that DNA test were run on the stamps used on the Riverside letters and a partial profile was extracted that eliminates Arthur Leigh Allen if the letters can be shown to be genuinely from Zodiac.
 
* I do believe that Zodiac may have been one who killed her in that Arthur Leigh Allen... fit the description (at that age) and went to that area on weekends for the races in Riverside, and was there that weekend. He was known to go there a lot. He also missed work, the day after she was killed.

* Other thing that bothers me is, the supposed ex-boyfriend or guy she had dated and his friend ..... didn't pass the polygraph. The boyfriend passed that he didn't kill her question.... but not if he knew who did, etc. His friend was also missing his watch that light, they saw 2 people searching the area with a flashlight as if they were looking from something that night (time frame after she had been killed).

* Autopsy; I'm sure I can find it again and link it. Defensive wounds on her right hand, suggesting the attacker had the knife in their left hand. Other stab wounds in right shoulder, they had the knife in their left hand. On the left of her back , a stab wound or more... and they thought the attacker was behind her at that point, so again ... knife in left hand. Then he cut her throat, all suggests from behind ...... and almost cut her head completely off of her. The deepest point and cut that nearly took her head off, were on the right side..... and less so on the very left side.... again, that supports cutting someone's throat while behind them that are left handed .

Arthur Leigh Allen .... was always said to be able to use 'both' hands equally as well, but tended to use his left when doing things or working with knifes, etc. and his right hand to do most writing (but not always ... could write with both hands).

Other thing .... most serial killers do NOT want to discuss, admit to , or talk about their first killing. The one that took them over to the darkside , so to speak and more personal. So, if it was Zodiak, , Cheri could have been his first victim. Also... Leigh worked at service station working on cars, was known for working on corvairs, VW's, etc. Ironically, she worked at a Mall not that far from Riverside Race Track, and her house was in that area as well. Leigh also took some "classes" at Riverside College for his continuous education requirements.

The ex-guy that she went out with ... his friend, Arthur Leigh, a weird guy that attended school there that made comments when he got ticked off at a girl .... and told her he killed Bates and could kill her too, and I'm sure others could be suspect. Those stand out to me.

Cheri bothers me.... that they didn't / couldn't get it pinned down.

If , as said in an earlier posts, there were other letters to Police with details , etc.. that were never said or released.... that seems very key. Especially if they were included information about her killing, etc.
 
I should also point out that DNA test were run on the stamps used on the Riverside letters and a partial profile was extracted that eliminates Arthur Leigh Allen if the letters can be shown to be genuinely from Zodiac.

That's what I also thought, that he didn't match the DNA. And if the letters weren't by the real Zodiac killer, than everyone's been following a false lead all along.

If they are real, Zodiac isn't the only killer to send letters and notes to taunt the police.

Maybe he heard about Cheri Jo Bates murder and the letters (which were a couple of years before his first known victim) and decided to use them himself.
 

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