Psychological Markers

downport said:

Hope you don't mind me jumping into this discussion ?

The idea of the transport vehicle being a utility or municipal type of work vehicle is interesting, I never would have thought of that.

Idk about the drifter idea. This guy would need regular Internet access.

The main thing to me is the burlap. That's not your everyday type of material. Because of the area, I can't see how a farmer could possibly be involved but how about a horse person ?

If I recall correctly, don't they think there's a link between these remains and remains found in NJ ?

I live on Long Island so I'm interested in this case.

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Here in PA, DCNR plants trees. If someone worked for DCNR, he could have the inconspicuous vehicle plus access to burlap (often trees at the nursery have it wrapped around their roots, I think).

Good points have been brought up about how this person/people eluded detection while in the act of disposing of bodies along the parkway...

I grew up locally, and I believe OP is patrolled by NYS Troopers rather than Nassau/Suffolk County PD, as most “parkways” around here generally seem to be (in my experience.)


I don’t think it is lawful to pull-over on OP and park on the shoulder. There may be signs posted altering drivers to this, but I think a passing patrol car would approach a stopped vehicle.


I was once pulled-over on the OP (at night) for accidentally throwing a cigarette out of my car window. There were two NYS Troopers in the one car that immediately pulled me over, and they chastised me for what I admit was an irresponsible act. (This took place several years ago.)
The OP is very flat and has unobstructed views, therefore someone who is pulled-over on the shoulder would be able to see an approaching car from either direction, and from a far distance. Also, especially during colder weather and at night, one is often able to drive on the OP for awhile without passing another motorist.


A few days ago in the evening, I drove past an SUV pulled over and parked very far off the shoulder of OP. It freaked me out, and I wondered if I should call police when I realized I was close to the Nikon Theater, and they were most likely trying to catch what they could of the concert that was going on.

waltzingmatilda said:

ONe idea I had about the drifter is that he contracts with the girls from a computer in a hotel lobby or public library. It would be more difficult to track him since he 'drifts' around, IMO.

wm

MOO

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Respectfully snipped

I don't know if it would be more difficult, it may be easier once pinpointed as any computer contact would involve signing in to email with passwords to post of craiglist, I don't know about the other site. That is if there were ever any posts from the killer. If the girls just posted their ads and put a phone number up then the killer would just be reading, not responding via computer. The killer would then just pick up the phone. IIRC, all the girls posted phone numbers.

21merc7 said:

Respectfully snipped

I don't know if it would be more difficult, it may be easier once pinpointed as any computer contact would involve signing in to email with passwords to post of craiglist, I don't know about the other site. That is if there were ever any posts from the killer. If the girls just posted their ads and put a phone number up then the killer would just be reading, not responding via computer. The killer would then just pick up the phone. IIRC, all the girls posted phone numbers.

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That's what I was thinking. I'm not too familiar with Craigslist, but I think that you can simply read the posts without having to log in. I doubt that the killer had a Craigslist account. If he did, then LE should have been able to catch him by now. MOO.

The last two victims voluntarily left their cell phones behind, so I was thinking about how someone might have convinced them to do that. I haven't liked any of the explanations I have read so far so here's my alternative

Turn the cell phone into a liability for them. Given that the killer is able to avoid cell tracking himself, it suggests he has some knowledge in this area. He might present himself as a law enforcement professional with inside information and convince the girl that her cell phone position is being monitored by law enforcement after she posted the number in an escort ad. Discuss this with her, offer to help her avoid getting arrested, and purchase services stressing that the phone will get them both arrested.

It's not that unusual that serial killer's accidentally cross paths without even noticing it. The Hillside Stranglers were for a while blamed for a victim of Alcala, in the Bundy case, there was this girl from the gas station which wouldn't fit Bundy's pattern, but who cares? And the Grim Sleeper had in his neighborhood a number of murders of another psychopath. The best known case for that is also the oldest: While Jack the Ripper was on the road, there was also one of those always popular torso killers active in London.
The point is, are we talking here about one or two cases? Because just mixing up psychological markers from two independent serial killers (and in the case of the Manorville Torso Killer), I'm so not sure it is only one at all, will not help us.
<modsnip>.

But a single strangler wrapping his victims in burlap and a dismemberer/torso killer are normally two different kinds of mice to start with. But if you look for a moment only to the four victims, you can definitively connect to the strangler, the first four found in Dec, you get not much of similarity except for the more general terms of prostitutes, history of drug abuse, Craigslist. The interesting detail is the variety in optical appearance and age, which indicates, this killer hasn't a set type. Such victimologies are rather rare with serial killers (I remember foggy another case in England in the 50s but can't find the file right now - which makes me a disorganized desk owner). However, over the last two decades, this type of variant victimology appears in cases of serial rapists more frequently. The best known case is the Waldo rapist, I think.

@Shadowwraiths: I would appreciate your opinion to the Long-Island-II-killer file on my website <modsnip> if you find the time and can bring up the interest.

Peter Brendt said:

two different kinds of mice to start with.

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I see no reason to use rodent analogies here.

Was reading your profile on your website and wanted to make a few comments. In looking at what the girls had in common, I would say "they let their guard down". If you look at some of the histories, some of them normally traveled with what amounts to body guards and cell phones to constantly be in touch. One was even known to "roll her clients" with accomplices. Two intentionally left there cell phones behind on the night they disappeared. I have a hard time with it being random that they disappeared only the moment they left without their escort and phone. I was thinking someone that tries and tries again until he gets someone in vulnerable circumstances. That kind of fishing with these girls would take some considerable disposable income.

Looking at the pictures of the girls, I don't think the girls are all unambiguously caucasian. In fact I read somewhere that the phone calls to the sister referred to her as a "half-breed".

The "not so random" point is the interesting one here. Because that is, what I doubt either. According to what I found in the media, Melissa Barthelmy deposited money that night AFTER she was at the client. Which basically means, she was abducted at a time and a place, only a stalker would have caught.
The thing with "caucasian" is a little bit of hindsight-thinking. I doubt, a serial killer does too much genealogy. Basically, most serial killers go by the look. So the criteria here would be, how they look, not what they really are. However, if the "half-bred" line would come from the phone calls, it would mean, the killer knew AFTER killing the victim. Only one family got phone calls, which, aside of the assumption that the killer had to raise the stakes for the kick, could also mean, something was with that victim which raised his rage and therefore called for some kind of special treatment. Just speculating on this point, of course.

My mistake, the half-breed comment is in reference to the sister who got the call. He wasn't talking about Melissa.

http://nymag.com/news/features/long-island-serial-killer-families-2011-6/index3.html

Peter Brendt said:

Melissa Barthelmy deposited money that night AFTER she was at the client.

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That isn't quite what I read.

"All I know is her landlord said she was sitting on the curb as if she was waiting for someone to pick her up," Lynn Barthelemy said. "Earlier that day she made a bank deposit of $900."

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http://articles.cnn.com/2011-07-30/justice/long.island.killings_1_amber-lynn-costello-melissa-barthelemy-maureen-brainard-barnes/3?_s=PM:CRIME

Maureen was from CT and was only scheduled to be in NY overnight. Following someone for over 100 miles on a bus?

Meagan was leaving a motel in Hauppage she booked only for the weekend with Cruz. Waiting at a hotel she booked with her boyfriend for her to leave alone in the middle of the night?

I originally wrote this on 08/21/11, but have been reading/posting elsewhere on WS, so I got a bit side tracked from this case. I only mention that to explain why I am bringing back up some old previously mentioned points.

::::::: MY 2 CENTS :::::::::::
Just read through what was listed on this sub-forum and decided to add my 2 cents, along w/info I've read, some concurs with theories presented here, some not so much.

This is my personal theory of the Long Island Serial Killer's Profile:

1) Relationship: Married or has Girlfriend (I lean towards married)
2) Family: Has one or more children (I lean towards multiple children)
3) Age: 30-40 yrs old (I lean towards 35-46)
4) Race: Undetermined - 1st pick- Caucasian, 2nd pick-Hispanic
5) Employment: Landscaping, Construction, Private Security (I think it's both Landscaping and Construction -- in this case a certain type of one that uses burlap regularly *winks*)
6) Education: High School, some College
7) Home owner & land owner: I believe he has lived in the area 5+ years (owns land -quite a bit- and a home same property)
8) Lives: Southold, NY (this is a guess on my part, and just an educated/uneducated one)

* Location/Beach - I think that he placed the bodies on the beach because he had to move them from their original location site due to construction that was occurring at the time.
* Change in body disposal/dismemberment - I believe he was experimenting and evolving.
* Victim Selection - While most SK's have their preference" of body type, age, height, etc. I will state this about the victims, they are almost all female (I think that the males happened to get in the way, were unplanned for or came looking for the missing females). All of the women were pretty much petite in size and height (less of a struggle fight). I also propose that this SK works off of "impulse", what I mean is, between his killings, say he encounters a particular woman that he feels has slighted him in some way (or that he desired), so for his next selection of victim, that's the "type" of female he zeros in on. I also think that he has used 'opportunity', when he happens across or goes looking for a female that is vulnerable, not always, because he would rather they come to him, but I think he does it in times of excess stress (a well known trigger for SK's). I also agree that he has a preferred hunting/killing season when he has a non-typical amount of time alone. I think that he also may take "business trips" for various landscape and/or construction industry meetings (which change location annually, but also gives him a "reason" to leave town -- a couple of these Industry meetings happen up/dwn the East Coast). I also believe that his occupation gives him access to homes, vacation homes, new construction sites, land, and beach areas easily little to no questions, because again, his type of job and he's actually well known in the community and further a field because of job, which is also why he knows so much of Long Island. I think the routes he uses, I think is because he does so going from 'job site' to job site.
* Who? - As I stated, you can't point fingers or name names with a "guess", but I know I have a person on my list of suspects, but only because of occupation, location, and meeting a few of my profile criteria, and if not that particular person, then I think LE should question co-workers. But, that's just my supposition and scientific wild *advertiser censored* guess, and what do I know. *smiles*
* Medical Treatment - I tend to disagree with LE opinion, I do not think he sought professional treatment for poison ivy, because I think he both knew better and also I think he self treated and/or disguised any skin irritation by explaining it away as a result of his daily business activitiies.
* Contact Method - Craig's List does not require a visitor to "register" in order to browse profile/AD's, plus there are other sites that also offer access to "professional" profile/AD's and they almost all list a contact phone number, a direct email, or a personal website.

***** BURLAP SOURCES *****
1) Horse Stables were discussed previously:
As for horse stables, there are at least 4 on Long Island. (One of which is oddly enough located in Southold - the area where I say the SK resides/owns a business, but I just think that's a coincidence)
2) Landscaping or Construction - Oddly enough there a certain one of those in Southold too (*winks*)

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
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PUBLISHED PROFILE CHARACTERISTICS:
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I did a search on google: ny+a+serial+killer+in+common, as the NY Magazine, published an in-depth look at the commonality of the victims, "A Serial Killer in Common", so I thought I'd read it. I ended up reading an alternate news story. In it, there were a few items stated, such as:
1) The SK is believed to be a white male 20's-40 yrs,
2) The SK is believed to not live alone, but to be in a relationship
3) He is considered to be an "organized" killer, putting a lot of time and effort into his killing/disposal, because of the lack of forensic evidence. There are some who think he has law enforcement familiarity, because of the calls to one victim's sister being under 3min trace times, and calls being made from high population areas, with greater difficulty to ID via cameras (Times Sq and Madison Sq).
4) The Burlap - easy access or stock pile, but no suspicion for having. Previous NY area SK of prostitutes Joel Rifkin stated his theory is that the SK is in landscaping, construction, fisherman
5) May have sought professional treatment for poison ivy --++This is due to the location of the bodies being full of poison ivy, which they feel would not be unavoidable if placing the bodies at night in the darkness.

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Source References:
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NY Mag - "A Serial Killer in Common" - May 29, 2011
http://nymag.com/news/features/long-island-serial-killer-families-2011-6/index1.html

NY Times - "A Serial Killer gets a Personality"
April 21, 2011
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/22/n...ets-a-personality-profile.html?pagewanted=all

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PROPOSED BY WS MEMBERS
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JustKay - "DEC or construction vehicle"
TLCox - suggested, a van
Tapu -"Most likely, of course, would be a business for which one uses a private vehicle, rather than a company/state vehicle--just for privacy, and for its availability in time off, and for clean-up."
Redbird - "does not live alone..rental unit.. private "killing place".."
Downport - "The main thing to me is the burlap. That's not your everyday type of material. Because of the area, I can't see how a farmer could possibly be involved but how about a horse person"
PlainJaneDoe - "Here in PA, DCNR plants trees. If someone worked for DCNR, he could have the inconspicuous vehicle plus access to burlap (often trees at the nursery have it wrapped around their roots, I think)."
Seifeit79 -"I grew up locally, and I believe OP is patrolled by NYS Troopers rather than Nassau/Suffolk County PD, as most “parkways” around here generally seem to be (in my experience.)"
Marie-Chantal - "I think that you can simply read the posts without having to log in. I doubt that the killer had a Craigslist account."

@Rodent69: Doesn't matter anyway. If both are from the same mother and the same father, if one is half-bred, the other one is too. However, on all the photos, I could see, she appeared Caucasian and a serial killer probably will not perform a genealogical research project to make sure. That would be really over-organized. They have to take what they see as granted.
The money thing is embarrassing -for me- because I didn't print all news articles about the case but used them on the screen and now I can't find the right one. Sorry. I think, it was ABC who had this thing with deposited money later in the night, together with what the bf/pimp said about the night, she disappeared. But I think somehow, to deposit money, after one gets it (in this case from a John) makes more sense than depositing it before one gets it. And there is nowhere hinted, she did $1000 trick daily, so it could have been just the regular cash flow from the day before. But then, a good advocatus diaboli is worth his weight in gold.

Okay, curiositycat, here is my bet:

1.) The unsub African-American
2.) He works in construction and occasional also landscaping. Which also means, he knows about poison ivy and would use an overall and gloves when walking through it.
3.) He works during the summer months in the NY area but moves during the cold time probably on to construction projects in warmer aka more southwestern states.
4.) He drives an American made pickup truck in a very common color, which can certainly also mean the standard reds.
5.) He is not a loner, but maybe divorced, not because he is a serial killer with some personality disorders but because the traveling lifestyle isn't very healthy to marriages and long term relationships.
6.) He has probably living space and additionally workspace in form of a workshop in the NY area, with the living space maybe in the Bronx. The workshop would be his keep and kill site.
7.) He probably has killed in other places. Victims there will be not necessarily wrapped in burlap but other materials in hand, which could change with the changing jobs on construction sites, the unsub performs.

The point, which made me stumble with all this LI based John theory is the money deposit. From there, I went through dozens and hundreds of articles and noticed:
- Barthelmy, money deposit after she was done with the John
- Costello, according to her "roommate" David Schaller, felt save with that customer, she knew him. The theory, that the killer invited the women several times to make them feel safe is based on the idea, that he maybe wasn't sure about his ability to overwhelm them and thus had to create a situation allowing him to blitz-attack. But a guy, who can pick a dead body from a car and carry it at night into the bushes is strong. He doesn't fear, he can't subdue a woman. So, Costello visited a regular, which makes it more likely, she was abducted after she left from there.
- It is said, Waterman lived not in NY, but I doubt that. Most of her business was in NY, her families home too far away to just drive in for after midnight meetings and even if she had some LI business, there is no real sign she had a permanent place there or she wouldn't have needed the hotel in the first place. So there had to be a place in NY and that police didn't tell the media about that means virtually nothing. But she was at the time on LI, for several days already. That means, she lived through the initial meeting and was abducted and killed later. And Maureen Brainard-Barnes left Norwich to go back to NY. She wasn't even with a John! This all made me a bit suspicious about this local John on LI sitting like a spider in the web.
- this leads me to the idea, that the center of their daily lives was in NY. Even prostitutes go shopping, need to eat and therefore go to groceries and so on. The daily stuff. And a stalker could have picked up from there.

Of course, that is only the short version. The long version is on my website, which I am not allowed to link here.

Just another LISK profile I came upon that continues to be updated as new info comes to light..
http://www.stalkinc.com/profile6.html

SmoothOperator said:

Just another LISK profile I came upon that continues to be updated as new info comes to light..
http://www.stalkinc.com/profile6.html

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There was a profile on that site for a serial killer who killed prostitutes in New England. There are some similarities in that profile and in the victims to the GB4 and the LISK:
http://www.stalkinc.com/profile3.htm

The circumstances of Wendy Morello's last sighting remind me a lot about what has been reported about Amber.

Here's the discussions about this case here on WS
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26997&highlight=Wendy+Morello

I have no idea whether they're related or not, but the similarities are striking IMO.

marie-chantal said:

There was a profile on that site for a serial killer who killed prostitutes in New England. There are some similarities in that profile and in the victims to the GB4 and the LISK:
http://www.stalkinc.com/profile3.htm

The circumstances of Wendy Morello's last sighting remind me a lot about what has been reported about Amber.

Here's the discussions about this case here on WS
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26997&highlight=Wendy+Morello

I have no idea whether they're related or not, but the similarities are striking IMO.

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Some similarities in their profiles for different killers appear unavoidable, considering the number of cliches they use over there at StalkInc. However, there are some differences between those two cases in the victimology. The Woodsman victims share at least some physical traits (all petites, hair colors in a certain color range). The GB4 don't. And the woman killed by the Woodsman were street corner prostitutes, the GB4 were Craigslist escorts (prostitutes too, but with another mode of finding their Johns). Also Woodsman and LISK2 have a different chronological behavior. Compare the times between murders for each of them.

I agree with you about the descriptions of the killers. The circumstances of Morello's last night are really similar to Amber, though. That is what caught my eye.

Morello left while dressed casually with someone she appeared to know, at the last minute. It's a very long shot (and I doubt it's the same person or even related) but this definitely sounds like ALC's last night. It also sounds kind of like Kim Raffo's disappearance in AC. It's probably just a coincidence, but I thought I'd throw it out there any way since there is a similarity between this woman's disappearance and ALC's disappearance.

There has been something gnawing at my brain for about a week regarding Jessica Taylor, that maybe some of you fellow sleuthers can shed a psychological light on.

She was missing her head and hands which could be an indication that the SK was trying to conceal her identity. Makes sense that if you don't have fingerprints or teeth, the victim will be hard to identify unless their DNA is in the system. The one thing that is troubling me though is her tattoo. The SK went through the time and trouble to dismember her but didn't bother to remove a clue to her identity, that being her tattoo. Why? It would seem logical that it would be easier to cut out a patch of skin than to cut through bone.

Even more puzzling is that the killer took the time to slice up the tattoo until it was unrecognizable without the ME's having to push the skin together. If you are going to disfigure it why not just remove it completely? Is this his way of playing a game with LE, like saying I want you to find her body and know who she is, but I'm going to make it difficult for you.

Or is it quite possible he made a mistake. He goes to the dumpsite with her torso, drops it at the location, looks down and realizes he left a clue. Being that the area where she was found was relatively open, perhaps he didn't have the tools or time to remove it, he found any object he could use to make it hard to identify. Any opinions?

There is another SK that did this exact same move with having made tiny little slices(like razor blade slices) all the way down the full length of his victim's tattoo.. I cannot for the life of me recall who it is or if it was a victim and SK identified and/or found.. But I saw with my own eyes the crime scene photo of the victim's body and the tiny razor blade slices made thru the full length of the tattoo.

Droopy said:

There has been something gnawing at my brain for about a week regarding Jessica Taylor, that maybe some of you fellow sleuthers can shed a psychological light on.

She was missing her head and hands which could be an indication that the SK was trying to conceal her identity. Makes sense that if you don't have fingerprints or teeth, the victim will be hard to identify unless their DNA is in the system. The one thing that is troubling me though is her tattoo. The SK went through the time and trouble to dismember her but didn't bother to remove a clue to her identity, that being her tattoo. Why? It would seem logical that it would be easier to cut out a patch of skin than to cut through bone.

Even more puzzling is that the killer took the time to slice up the tattoo until it was unrecognizable without the ME's having to push the skin together. If you are going to disfigure it why not just remove it completely? Is this his way of playing a game with LE, like saying I want you to find her body and know who she is, but I'm going to make it difficult for you.

Or is it quite possible he made a mistake. He goes to the dumpsite with her torso, drops it at the location, looks down and realizes he left a clue. Being that the area where she was found was relatively open, perhaps he didn't have the tools or time to remove it, he found any object he could use to make it hard to identify. Any opinions?

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I read somewhere on here that the tattoo was cut up with glass. Don't quote me on that. It has been a while since I read that. Can anyone else remember that?