The Church?

ilovemew · Apr 9, 2009

passionflower said:
IIRC, Sgt. said no confirmation on luggage stolen and no report.....all hear say by those people.

I was thinking that if it was stolen from the church they probably wouldn't have reported it stolen to police. Just handled it within the church.

SeekingJana · Apr 9, 2009

chicagofa13 said:
Oh I think Gacy was a highly-organized intelligent killer. He got away with murder, literally, for a very long time. IMO the crawl space is a logical place to search for hidden items, not necessarily as a burial or location to hide a body.

I just have a feeling she was not left anywhere for long, but put in the suitcase and taken away.

I also believe it is someone in the mhp or the church, not a stranger or migrant worker, but someone Sandra knew or knew of.

I thought Gacy was probably classified as organized also, but have never read a profiler's report on him. I'm very aware of his crimes and the burying, the wanting to be close to his victims. He was totally schizo and his behavior in prison was also incredibly bizarre.

The hiding behind a mask of a clown--- metaphorically, being a " kind man who likes children".
Just thinkin' about the men who do evil while hiding behind different types of " masks".

I agree with what you've said about Sandra's killer being someone she knew and trusted.

scandi · Apr 9, 2009

LinasK said:
I think she was attacked/murdered/or packaged into the suitcase there. Gloves were found under the church...

Maybe even taken into the church, she died there, stored in the crawl space while someone or he went to pick up the suitcase Mrs CL said she had sitting out by her driveway, back to the shed, took out contents of suitcase, under the hint of darkness carried her into the shed, redressed her if needed, put on her shoes and shoved her in the bag. I still have not put the sequence together.

SeekingJana said:
The FBI has classified Sandra's murder as having been committed by a " disorganized killer". Do we know if Gacy's profile was that of a disorganized killer? I honestly don't know...
I am thinking they may be onto a pedophillic serial spree killer.. it would explain the disorganization aspect.
Anyone who would either keep a live child or hide a decomposing body for a period of days has probably abducted/ killed before. First time non-familial killers with disorganization leave the body where the person died, or dump it immediately. (If the killer is a family member, the killer would be more likely to want to keep the body close by.)

BTW, I think the killer had at least one accomplice/ confidante'.

Thanks, as I hadn't heard LE have classified her killer as 'disorganized.

chicagofa13 said:
Oh I think Gacy was a highly-organized intelligent killer. He got away with murder, literally, for a very long time. IMO the crawl space is a logical place to search for hidden items, not necessarily as a burial or location to hide a body.

I just have a feeling she was not left anywhere for long, but put in the suitcase and taken away.

I also believe it is someone in the mhp or the church, not a stranger or migrant worker, but someone Sandra knew or knew of.

ITA Chicago, I think the bag was in the pond before the call went out she was missing.

I don't think this killer cared if she was thrown into muddy sludge with not much water in it. Even if the pond wasn't full there would be some water in it. I seem to think he wanted her found sooner than later as he probably thought he had left no evidence.

ilovemew said:
Did they bring cadaver dogs into the church to sniff around?

Hi again Ilovemew, I thought of the same thing tonight and don't think there was enough time {1 1/2 - 2 hours} for her body to develop an alertable death scent. Clues might have told them this and so they didn't call in cadaver dogs. And these investigators know the statistics, an abducted child is most usually dead within 3 hours acc to Marc Klaas.

ilovemew · Apr 9, 2009

scandi said:
Hi again Ilovemew, I thought of the same thing tonight and don't think there was enough time {1 1/2 - 2 hours} for her body to develop an alertable death scent. Clues might have told them this and so they didn't call in cadaver dogs. And these investigators know the statistics, an abducted child is most usually dead within 3 hours acc to Marc Klaas.

I thought I had read here somewhere that she had to have been "stored" for a few days because the irrigation pond would not have been filled yet.
I was thinking she was put in the crawl space for awhile.
Poor baby girl this su**s to type!!!

:furious:

Nora Charles · Apr 9, 2009

According to SGT S. in presser the pond had been filled for at least two weeks.

ilovemew said:
I thought I had read here somewhere that she had to have been "stored" for a few days because the irrigation pond would not have been filled yet.
I was thinking she was put in the crawl space for awhile.
Poor baby girl this su**s to type!!! :furious:

ThoughtFox · Apr 9, 2009

I don't know - While this killer may have premeditated somewhat, the whole suitcase deal makes me think it was a spur of the moment decision. That's not to say the killer might not have a history of crime, but that he just took an opportunity when the child was out alone and no one was around.

Anyway - my 2 cents.

Here are some facts about the Church:

ABC News: Searching for Sandra's Killer

Police and FBI agents began working at the church, located about 500 feet from Sandra's home, around 2 p.m. on Tuesday and continued into the evening, Sheneman said.

ABC's KGO-TV in San Francisco reported that a team of FBI agents removed items from inside the church and from the pastor's home which is located in the same mobile home park where Sandra lived. FBI agents were also seen searching a crawl space under the church.

The pastor's wife, Connie Lawless, told KGO that they are cooperating with police. She confirmed that investigators removed some items from their home. "They took the usual stuff -- phone, computers, things of that nature. We were very open to them taking anything they wanted to take."

Fear Grips Tracy as Cops Search

Investigators appeared to be focusing most on the Clover Road Baptist Church, on West Clover Road about a quarter-mile from the park, and spent at least three hours since the discovery of Sandra's body questioning its pastor, Lane Lawless. Tuesday evening, officials in white forensics suits and gloves and armed with a search warrant were meticulously picking through the building.

No arrests were made, and police Sgt. Tony Sheneman said the pastor "has not been named as a suspect."

...Sandra's family - who gave no public interviews Tuesday - does not attend Clover Road Baptist Church, neighbors said. The church's Web site said Lawless has headed the church since 1981 and has three grown children and nine grandchildren.

ThoughtFox · Apr 9, 2009

Video of Police Searching Clover Road Church

Screencaps of the Video ~ Not in Order of Appearance:

Crawl Space

Gloves Discovered in Crawl Space

Plastic Bag Found on Property

Paper Towel Marked as Evidence

Shed Searched

elle1919 · Apr 9, 2009

I can't tell is that paper towel inside the fence?

**sweetpickles** · Apr 9, 2009

would anyone happen to have an ariel photo marking Sandra's MHP and the Church?

TIA

passionflower · Apr 9, 2009

The shed and esp the crawl space is so creepy to me!
My hair stood up on end when looking at crawl space.
Do we know if samples of dirt taken, or dog were brought in?
Perfect hiding place............

~Always Have Hope~ · Apr 9, 2009

Question on crawl space.....is the crawl space accessible outside? I mean I know it is, but would it have been visible to anyone passing by? or would someone have to *know* it was there? Does that make sense??

**sweetpickles** · Apr 9, 2009

passionflower said:
The shed and esp the crawl space is so creepy to me!
My hair stood up on end when looking at crawl space.
Do we know if samples of dirt taken, or dog were brought in?
Perfect hiding place............

There were gloves found under the church correct?

That made the hair on the back of my neck stand up! WHY would there be a pair of gloves UNDER the church unless they were trying to hide something. And WHAT was in the shed???? I want INFO!!!

lonetraveler · Apr 9, 2009

chicagofa13 said:
Fred W, a member of the church says the luggage was to be part of a rummage sale and was stolen the day Sandra went missing.

(IIRC other posters here say Connie L has since said it was hers (?) to be donated to the rummage sale. I don't have a link for that, so maybe someone else can help me out!!)

http://www.kcra.com/news/19121818/detail.html

Williams said that the mysterious black suitcase Cantu was found in was reported stolen by another congregation member the same day Cantu disappeared.

"That suitcase was to go to the church for a rummage sale with some stuff in it and the person put it somewhere, either in the back of a car somewhere. But anyway, when she came back out the suitcase was gone," Williams said.

---
This is really strange to me. Who knew that the suitcase was put into the car? It seems to me that the murderer would have had to know about the suitcase. IMO, the murderer would not have killed Cantu and then walked around the Mobile Home Park looking for something to hide her in and coincidentally found a suitcase just sitting in a car waiting to be found just when a little girl needed to be hidden and disposed of in an irrigation pond. I'm just not buying it. Whoever took the little girl knew exactly where to find the suitcase and did not have to look very far for a way to hide Cantu.

passionflower · Apr 9, 2009

lonetraveler said:
---
This is really strange to me. Who knew that the suitcase was put into the car? It seems to me that the murderer would have had to know about the suitcase. IMO, the murderer would not have killed Cantu and then walked around the Mobile Home Park looking for something to hide her in and coincidentally found a suitcase just sitting in a car waiting to be found just when a little girl needed to be hidden and disposed of in an irrigation pond. I'm just not buying it. Whoever took the little girl knew exactly where to find the suitcase and did not have to look very far for a way to hide Cantu.

bolded by me. Very Hinky for sure and this is important! I agree

Sunburst70791 · Apr 9, 2009

passionflower said:
bolded by me. Very Hinky for sure and this is important! I agree

yeah just a little too convenient.....what are the odds, huh?

bp531 · Apr 9, 2009

bp531 said:
I just noticed that the church website has been changed. It seems they have disabled alot of it. No more comments, which is good IMO. It was getting pretty ugly.

Sorry to quote my own post, but apparently I was mistaken. The church website is up like it originally was. It was really late last night when I was trying to access it, so it must have been something I was doing wrong. IDK

nursebeeme · Apr 9, 2009

quick thing on the church... I was just watching KRON live and they were answering questions that people tweeted in .... one of them was about the gloves...

They said that Shenehan would not confirm or deny that gloves were found under the church.

They also showed some video they took of the church search and it showed fbi using blue light inside

~Always Have Hope~ · Apr 9, 2009

Also about the church~ just another thought provoking question (also that I sorta-semi posted on the Profile of a killer thread).....do we know if the church was accessible going out of the back of the MHP?

tiredofthis · Apr 9, 2009

passionflower said:
The shed and esp the crawl space is so creepy to me!
My hair stood up on end when looking at crawl space.
Do we know if samples of dirt taken, or dog were brought in?
Perfect hiding place............

Very creepy.

**sweetpickles** · Apr 9, 2009

~Always Have Hope~ said:
Also about the church~ just another thought provoking question (also that I sorta-semi posted on the Profile of a killer thread).....do we know if the church was accessible going out of the back of the MHP?

There is only one way in and one way out, although it might be accessible via foot.

The Church?

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