Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL* #2

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Monzoo said:
Do you have information as to what is "normal" after a false confession or accusation? Are there studies as to how long it takes a person to recant? I'd love to see some case studies, even -- to see what you base your knowledge of what Amanda Knox should have done if she were forced into making a statement.

If she were to recant within a couple of days, would that be enough for you? Within a few hours? I hope that you are not hold her to an impossibly high standard.

... If you know the history of the case, then you know that hours after her statements... the afternoon of the 6th (the two confession statements were signed approx. 1:30 am and 5:45 am that day) Amanda wrote what has been termed her "gift" note.

In addition, she wrote a note to the police the next day, the seventh, after her arrest. The only place I have found the text of this note is in her book, Waiting to Be Heard (chapter 13). It was, however, referenced during her testimony.

I'm not sure what you are refencing in regard to telling a family member that she lied about Patrick. Do you have a cite? I have shown you two instances where she recanted within the first day, before she had a chance to talk to a family member or legal counsel. She was in police custody at the time she wrote both of these statements.
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If Knox had clearly stated, after falsely accusing an innocent man of murder, that she felt pressured to make the statement and that there was no truth to it, everything would have been fine. The fact remains that Knox did not do this and, as a result, she was convicted of criminal activity. That earned her three years in jail.

Knox told her mother that she lied about Patrick. That was overheard when her mother visited her in jail. That information is in the court transcripts. This demonstrates that Knox knew that what she did was wrong, and we know that she did nothing to clearly straighten out the truth. If I recall correctly, the family member stated during testimony that she also kept quiet about the information because she did not speak Italian.

I have read Knox's "gift" letter where she states that she stands behind what she said about Patrick.
 
otto said:
If Knox had clearly stated, after falsely accusing an innocent man of murder, that she felt pressured to make the statement and that there was no truth to it, everything would have been fine. The fact remains that Knox did not do this and, as a result, she was convicted of criminal activity. That earned her three years in jail.

Knox told her mother that she lied about Patrick. That was overheard when her mother visited her in jail. That information is in the court transcripts. This demonstrates that Knox knew that what she did was wrong, and we know that she did nothing to clearly straighten out the truth. If I recall correctly, the family member stated during testimony that she also kept quiet about the information because she did not speak Italian.

I have read Knox's "gift" letter where she states that she stands behind what she said about Patrick.
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I am not so sure if everything would be fine. You still can't accuse an innocent man of rape and murder, even if you recant it the next day. Knox tries to play the police and wants to keep both options open in that letter. I don't think you can say she recants anything. Furthermore, in her letter she was the first one to mention screaming by Meredith (later confirmed by other witnesses), and puts suspicion on Sollecito when she says he has blood on his hand and she just thinks (so she is not sure) it is from fish.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Amanda_Knox's_Confession

The previous appeal court simply ignored Knox's writings. They didn't even bring it up. They also ignored the multiple witnesses that all stated the interrogation was not very long, that Knox did not appear exhausted and there was no extreme pressure. The Supreme Court however can not be fooled that easily and I am pretty sure the next court won't be either.

From the translated Supreme Court report:
The objective facts are therefore absolutely irrefutable, as was deemed in both trials; whereas the argument adopted from a subjective point of view, according to which the young woman resorted to extreme behavior by giving the name of Lumumba only in order to get out of a situation of mental discomfort into which she was driven by the excessive zeal and unjustifiable intemperance of the investigators, cannot be well‐founded given that – as it was ascertained – the accusation of Lumumba was maintained after her first statements and re‐affirmed in the letter, which was written in complete solitude and at a certain distance in time from the first uncontrolled reaction in response to an insistent request for a name by the police.

Although very young, Knox was a mature and sufficiently cultivated girl, born and raised in a country whose laws do not allow gratuitous accusations of a person in order to extricate oneself from a difficult situation. So Knox was in a position, even after an initial although long moment of bewilderment, amnesia and confusion, to regain control of herself and understand the gravity of the conduct she was adopting; at the very least, in the days immediately following her heedless initiative she could have pointed out to the investigators that she had led them in a false direction, availing herself of the support of her Defence team, given that in the meantime she had acquired the status of a suspect.

Her persistence in her criminal attitude (discovered only through her taped conversation with her mother) proves the clear divergence with behavior that could be interpreted as an attempt at cooperation, as the Defence would have it, and does not lend itself to evaluation as a response to a state of necessity, the very existence of which depends on a condition of inevitability and thus on the non‐existence of any alternatives, so that it cannot even be recognized [as existing] as [her own] erroneous hypothesis. Neither can the exercise of any right be invoked, given that the right of [self] defence does not extend under the legal system of any constitutional state to the point of allowing one to implicate an innocent person so seriously – it is worth recalling that he [Lumumba] underwent a period of incarceration uniquely and exclusively on the basis of the false accusations of the defendant.

On the subject of the relations between the right of self‐defence and false criminal accusations, it has been affirmed that during the course of the proceedings instituted against a defendant, he can deny – even lie – the truth of statements that are not in his favour, but if he goes beyond the rigorous functional relationship relating his conduct to a refutation of the accusation, if he does not limit himself to denying the accusations against him but undertakes further initiatives aimed at implicating third parties of whose innocence he is aware, then he has gone beyond the simple exercise of the right of [self] defence, and must be held responsible for all the constituent elements of the crime of calunnia (SC section VI,16.1.1998, n. 1333).
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And with that the appeal by the defence against the false accusation charge was rejected, and the charge became definite. Knox is a criminal. It is important to note for the next trial that the SC also rejected the opinion of the previous court that there is no connection between the false accusation and the murder charge.

Trial starts at September 30th. Hearings are scheduled for October 4, 23 and 24th and November 6, 7, 25 and 26th. President of the Court will be Alessandro Nencini.
 
Elley Mae said:
Amanda Knox: Raffaele Sollicito claims police wanted him to FRAME her over Meredith Kercher’s murder

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/amanda-knox-raffaele-sollicito-claims-2272515
Click to expand...


Rafaelle seems to be "talking" a lot lately ... and the more he talks, the more he "tells" on himself and Amanda ...

It is going to be very interesting to see IF he shows up in Florence on 9-30-13 ...

:doh: Oh wait, first he said he was going to the Appeal and now he is saying he is not ...

JMO but he is a "loose cannon" ...

:moo:
 
dog.gone.cute said:
Rafaelle seems to be "talking" a lot lately ... and the more he talks, the more he "tells" on himself and Amanda ...

It is going to be very interesting to see IF he shows up in Florence on 9-30-13 ...

:doh: Oh wait, first he said he was going to the Appeal and now he is saying he is not ...

JMO but he is a "loose cannon" ...

:moo:
Click to expand...

"Sollecito has now moved to a secret location in the Caribbean, where he is currently trying to establish a business.

Knox’s lawyers have insisted she will not be at the retrial in Florence and *Sollecito said he will wait until after the first of eight *scheduled *hearings to see “which way the court is going”.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/amanda-knox-raffaele-sollecito-claims-2272515
 
<Mod Snip> Amanda and Rafaelle are completely innocent unlike Rudy.
Amanda is a victim of mass media.
I am so happy that Amanda will not be at the trial it is not needed for her to be.
 
Who would have thought that the day would come when someone would suggest that having a suspect in court during a murder conviction appeal could be interpreted as a "distraction"?

&#8220;There are so many factors that are not allowing me to go back,&#8221; she said, &#8220;financial ones, ones where I&#8217;m going to school, ones where I want the court to proceed without distraction. ...

It didn&#8217;t matter that everybody knew Amanda Knox wasn&#8217;t going to say anything new on the &#8220;Today&#8221; show Friday, that she wasn&#8217;t going to drop any big bombshells. It didn&#8217;t matter, because Amanda Knox is such a subject of deep public fascination, she could have sat in that chair opposite Matt Lauer and said nothing at all, and people would have tuned in. And she knew that. Amanda Knox &#8211; whose name has become synonymous with a lurid murder, and all those rumors about orgies and devil worship and drugs. The tabloid headline queen of the world. The pretty, all-American girl."
... more at link

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/20/amanda_knox_i_have_to_think_the_worst_case_scenario/
 
I seem to recall that she declined any kind of professional help after she returned to Seattle. Now she claims to have PTSD, and apparently she had it already when she was in prison. Six months ago, in April, she loved the idea of opening a discussion about some of the problems that surrounded her case &#8212; "for instance, the idea of a public identity." Is she offering to do a program about Public Identity where she's the guest ... what is she asking for? ... and she has PTSD? Could the fact that she has a public identity be the cause of the PTSD?

"She says she still suffers post-traumatic stress disorder that &#8220;debilitates me.&#8221;

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/20/amanda_knox_i_have_to_think_the_worst_case_scenario/

"I really, really want this to not be just about what happened to me, but about what one can do in a bad place. And I'd love for it to open a discussion about some of the problems that surrounded my case &#8212; for instance, the idea of a public identity. The idea of trying to find the familiar in the completely unfamiliar. This existential crisis of things happening to you that you don't understand."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/30/amanda-knox-interview-excerpts/2113059/
 
"Miss Knox, from Seattle, was arrested and remanded in custody a few days after Miss Kercher's body was found in a pool of blood in the house the two young women shared in Perugia, the hilltop town in Umbria where they were both studying.

The American was found guilty of the murder, along with her ex-boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, in 2009 but then acquitted by an appeals court in 2011.

But earlier this year the Supreme Court in Rome ordered a retrial, saying the appeals judges had failed to fully take into account crucial evidence."

...

The computer studies graduate, who tried to settle in Switzerland this year before being expelled for not revealing his involvement in the case, is not expected to be at the retrial either. He is reportedly now living somewhere in the Caribbean.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rning-to-Italy-would-be-a-return-to-hell.html
 
otto said:
I seem to recall that she declined any kind of professional help after she returned to Seattle. Now she claims to have PTSD, and apparently she had it already when she was in prison.
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Respectfully snipped and BBM:


:twocents: This is a huge insult to those who are suffering with REAL PTSD ...

What a crock that Knox is now claiming to have this ... hmmm ... I remember when Jodi Arias "claimed" to have PTSD also ...

It is really getting "old" that when these knife-wielding "damsels in distress" run out of "excuses" they turn to PTSD ...

:twocents:
 
otto said:
Who would have thought that the day would come when someone would suggest that having a suspect in court during a murder conviction appeal could be interpreted as a "distraction"?

“There are so many factors that are not allowing me to go back,” she said, “financial ones, ones where I’m going to school, ones where I want the court to proceed without distraction. ...
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Respectfully snipped and RBBM:


:violin: What a pathetic and pitiful "excuse" ...

:twocents: The REAL reason Knox is not going to Florence for the re-try of the Appeal is that she KNOWS that the Court is going to squash the Hellman verdict and uphold the decision of the Trial Court = GUILTY !

:waitasec: "financial ones" ? Didn't she just get $3.8 million dollars for her book deal ?

:doh: Oh that's right ... she had to pay off that high price PR firm ...

:twocents:
 
After reading through every post in this thread I just have to say that I find it appalling that for those who believe that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty of murder and who are crying out for justice for Meredith Kercher, have not a single word of outrage that Rudy Hermann Guede, Meredith's convicted murderer, may be paroled in 2014 to walk the streets a free man.

Remember Rudy? The man who's DNA was found in and on Meredith's brutally savaged body and throughout the crime scene? The man who left a bloody handprint on the pillow under Meredith's body and fingerprints all over Meredith's bedroom? His bloody shoeprint in the bedroom and down the hall and his feces in the toilet? The man who stole money and cell phones from Meredith's purse that night and then fled to Germany the next day? The same man who repeatedly told police that Amanda and Raffaele were not in the house that night only to change his story two years later during an appeal which successfully reduced his original 30 year sentence by half?

Do you truly believe his ridiculous story that he and Meredith had consensual sex that night? Where's the outrage over this man possibly being set free after serving a mere seven or eight years for committing such a despicable, savage murder? And even if he's not paroled next year, serving only sixteen years in payment for taking Meredith's young and innocent life from her is justice?

Not a single hair, not a single fingerprint, not a speck of DNA belonging to Amanda or Raffaele at the bloody scene of the crime. Not a speck of Meredith's DNA or blood on their clothing. Not a shred of evidence to place them at the scene. Only a desperate, unbelievable prosecution theory of a drug-fueled, satanic-ritual sex orgy gone wrong with not a single evidentiary fact to support it.

The prosecution's case against Amanda and Raffaele is laughable at best, and an absolute travesty of justice at its worst. Don't kid yourself if you believe that the retrial of their case with a possible finding of guilty equals justice for Meredith. If one truly cared about justice for Meredith you would be as outraged as I am that her convicted murderer Rudy Guede may be walking the streets, a free man, in a matter of months.
 
dog.gone-- thank you for that interview clip. the first link did not work for me either.

i do not fault amanda for not returning to italy -- for any of the reasons she mentions. her defense cost well over $1,000,000. that needs to be paid off. additionally, i would imagine that taxes would take a large chunk of the book deal money too. and, why should she spend more money to travel back to, and stay in, a country that --should she be innocent of murder-- mistreated her so badly?

question: if you were in her place --and innocent, as she claims to be-- would you return to italy?
 
PaperMoon said:
After reading through every post in this thread I just have to say that I find it appalling that for those who believe that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty of murder and who are crying out for justice for Meredith Kercher, have not a single word of outrage that Rudy Hermann Guede, Meredith's convicted murderer, may be paroled in 2014 to walk the streets a free man.

Remember Rudy? The man who's DNA was found in and on Meredith's brutally savaged body and throughout the crime scene? The man who left a bloody handprint on the pillow under Meredith's body and fingerprints all over Meredith's bedroom? His bloody shoeprint in the bedroom and down the hall and his feces in the toilet? The man who stole money and cell phones from Meredith's purse that night and then fled to Germany the next day? The same man who repeatedly told police that Amanda and Raffaele were not in the house that night only to change his story two years later during an appeal which successfully reduced his original 30 year sentence by half?

Do you truly believe his ridiculous story that he and Meredith had consensual sex that night? Where's the outrage over this man possibly being set free after serving a mere seven or eight years for committing such a despicable, savage murder? And even if he's not paroled next year, serving only sixteen years in payment for taking Meredith's young and innocent life from her is justice?

Not a single hair, not a single fingerprint, not a speck of DNA belonging to Amanda or Raffaele at the bloody scene of the crime. Not a speck of Meredith's DNA or blood on their clothing. Not a shred of evidence to place them at the scene. Only a desperate, unbelievable prosecution theory of a drug-fueled, satanic-ritual sex orgy gone wrong with not a single evidentiary fact to support it.

The prosecution's case against Amanda and Raffaele is laughable at best, and an absolute travesty of justice at its worst. Don't kid yourself if you believe that the retrial of their case with a possible finding of guilty equals justice for Meredith. If one truly cared about justice for Meredith you would be as outraged as I am that her convicted murderer Rudy Guede may be walking the streets, a free man, in a matter of months.
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Guede should have gotten a longer sentence but he used the system by taking advantage of the fast track trial. Without the deduction for the fast track trial his sentence is just as long as for Knox and Sollecito after their conviction.

Good summary of the 'innocent' case. Just keep repeating no DNA and no evidence. Even Guede's fingerprints all over the room? Amazing. Then throw in the old 'satanic ritual' claim and blame the prosecution even though it came from the defense lawyer. If there was an actual case for innocence you wouldn't have to make any of this stuff up.

<Mod Snip> There is a real trial going on with lots of real evidence that all points to the participation of Amanda Knox and her boyfriend in the murder of Meredith Kercher. It is starting on September 30th.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/The_Evidence
 
redheadedgal said:
dog.gone-- thank you for that interview clip. the first link did not work for me either.

i do not fault amanda for not returning to italy -- for any of the reasons she mentions. her defense cost well over $1,000,000. that needs to be paid off. additionally, i would imagine that taxes would take a large chunk of the book deal money too. and, why should she spend more money to travel back to, and stay in, a country that --should she be innocent of murder-- mistreated her so badly?

question: if you were in her place --and innocent, as she claims to be-- would you return to italy?
Click to expand...


:seeya: You're welcome for the clip ... there are more clips on You Tube of the most recent interviews ...

As to your question : IF it is me, and I know that I am INNOCENT, I would have no problem returning and doing everything I could to disprove the prosecution's case against me ...

Another thing : my "story" would NOT change because the TRUTH does not change ... If you tell the TRUTH from day one and tell it consistently for 6 years, it would be the same "story" ...


But Knox did NOT do that : Knox's "story" changed ... and changed ... it also did NOT match the evidence -- NOT just the DNA evidence -- but the MANY PIECES of evidence against her and Raf and Rudy ...

And the most damning evidence, IMO, against Knox is when she accused Mr. Patrick Lumumba -- an INNOCENT African man -- of murdering Meredith !

Now WHY would an "innocent person" [allegedly Knox] ACCUSE another innocent person of murder [Mr. Lumumba]? That makes NO SENSE at all, IMO ...

And for that, Knox was charged with calunnia, which has been upheld and FINAL by the Supreme Court in Italy ...

:waitasec: Although it is NOT the same thing -- calunnia in Italy and lying to LE in the U.S. -- both are crimes :

Example : Casey Anthony was charged AND convicted of several counts of LYING to LE, and the sentence she served while awaiting trial counted towards these charges for lying to LE ...

Knox LIED to Italian LE about Patrick Lumumba, an INNOCENT man who had nothing to do with Meredith's murder, so she was charged and convicted of calunnia, which sentence was served while awaiting her trial and appeals trial ...

:moo: Knox is a convicted liar just like Casey Anthony is a convicted liar ...

And Knox knows that if she goes back, she is going to :jail: ...

And it will be interesting to see IF -- IF Rafaelle "throws her under the bus" when he is extradited back to Italy ...

:twocents: :moo: :twocents:
 
dog.gone.cute said:
And it will be interesting to see IF -- IF Rafaelle "throws her under the bus" when he is extradited back to Italy ...
Click to expand...


i find it interesting that you and i agree on several other cases re: guilt yet i so vehemently disagree with you on this one...

yes-- the next few weeks/months will be very intriguing... to see how the trial/verdict play out. think it'll be on tv and translated?? i'd watch.

if i've got this one all wrong, and AK/RS are truly guilty of murdering MK, i hope justice prevails, for meredith's sake.

:seeya:
 
dog.gone.cute said:
:seeya: You're welcome for the clip ... there are more clips on You Tube of the most recent interviews ...

As to your question : IF it is me, and I know that I am INNOCENT, I would have no problem returning and doing everything I could to disprove the prosecution's case against me ...

Another thing : my "story" would NOT change because the TRUTH does not change ... If you tell the TRUTH from day one and tell it consistently for 6 years, it would be the same "story" ...


But Knox did NOT do that : Knox's "story" changed ... and changed ... it also did NOT match the evidence -- NOT just the DNA evidence -- but the MANY PIECES of evidence against her and Raf and Rudy ...

And the most damning evidence, IMO, against Knox is when she accused Mr. Patrick Lumumba -- an INNOCENT African man -- of murdering Meredith !

Now WHY would an "innocent person" [allegedly Knox] ACCUSE another innocent person of murder [Mr. Lumumba]? That makes NO SENSE at all, IMO ...

And for that, Knox was charged with calunnia, which has been upheld and FINAL by the Supreme Court in Italy ...

:waitasec: Although it is NOT the same thing -- calunnia in Italy and lying to LE in the U.S. -- both are crimes :

Example : Casey Anthony was charged AND convicted of several counts of LYING to LE, and the sentence she served while awaiting trial counted towards these charges for lying to LE ...

Knox LIED to Italian LE about Patrick Lumumba, an INNOCENT man who had nothing to do with Meredith's murder, so she was charged and convicted of calunnia, which sentence was served while awaiting her trial and appeals trial ...

:moo: Knox is a convicted liar just like Casey Anthony is a convicted liar ...

And Knox knows that if she goes back, she is going to :jail: ...

And it will be interesting to see IF -- IF Rafaelle "throws her under the bus" when he is extradited back to Italy ...

:twocents: :moo: :twocents:
Click to expand...

I agree with you as usual, DGC. :seeya:

Amanda and her ex-bf are, at the very least, guilty of lying about what really happened that night. Why lie at all? Why so many contradictions? I'm not even going to take into account her bizarre behaviour post-murder. Just the numerous lies = huge red flag for me. I think she was present at the house when the murder took place. I'm not sure to what extent she actually participated in it.

I've noticed also that in her recent interviews she really doesn't show any genuine emotion while speaking about Meredith. See the contrast in emotions when she talks about her pain, her family, her ordeal. You can see genuine sadness. Of course this is not evidence but it's very revealing. Something is clearly off with that girl regardless of her innocence or guilt.
 
redheadedgal said:
i find it interesting that you and i agree on several other cases re: guilt yet i so vehemently disagree with you on this one...

yes-- the next few weeks/months will be very intriguing... to see how the trial/verdict play out. think it'll be on tv and translated?? i'd watch.

if i've got this one all wrong, and AK/RS are truly guilty of murdering MK, i hope justice prevails, for meredith's sake.

:seeya:
Click to expand...


:seeya: Yes ... we agree on some and disagree on this one ... so sometimes "great minds" do not think alike :floorlaugh: ... LOL !

Let me explain why I have NO doubt that Knox and Sollecito -- and Rudy -- are ALL guilty of Meredith's murder:

The first two documents I read in this case were Knox's "E-Mail" and her "written Confession" -- and BOTH of these documents raised red flags immediately ! Now, when I first read these 2 documents, it was when the Appeal was going on which was sometime in 2011 ...

To get caught up to speed in the case, I read the Threads here at Websleuths, numerous news media articles [both US and Europe], watched videos, photos of evidence and crime scene, etc. Then I read John Follain's book ...

I looked at everything ... including the FOA's argument :scared:

My conclusions were : there were too many changes in their "stories" by both Knox and Sollecito ... the staging of the crime scene at the cottage, which only could have been done by someone who lived there ... cell phone and computer records did not match the "stories" ... Knox accusing an innocent man, Patrick Lumumba, of the murder when he was working in his bar that night ... the list goes on and on and on ...

My conclusion is Knox and Sollecito -- and Guede -- are GUILTY of Meredith's murder ... Guede did NOT act alone, and this was clearly stated in the Supreme Court decision in his case. One thing I would like to know is HOW Guede ended up at the cottage that night : Meredith did NOT invite him to the cottage ... so it had to be only person who let him into the cottage that night: Amanda Knox !

The Trial Court got it right and the Supreme Court got it right ... Hellman should have NEVER overturned the Trial Court's guilty verdict ...

I have no doubt that this retry at the Appellate Court will uphold the Trial Court's GUILTY verdict ...

Of course, all JMO and MOO !

:twocents:
 
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