Verdict Watch Thread Saturday July 13

m00c0w said:

I have seen something repeatedly discussed in the thread that, IMO, is an unfounded assertion based on little evidence.

Let's try to take an objective look at the notion that Zimmerman's weapon recoiling into his face may have cut his nose, bloodied it, potentially broken it, and slammed his head into the ground.

Here are three videos of the weapon being fired:

Kel-Tec PF9 Range Day (Part 1) - YouTube
Kel-Tec PF9 Range Review: EDC or Closet Bound? - YouTube
KEL-TEC PF-9 ~ RANGE DAY - YouTube

This is not the amount of recoil I would expect to see to cause significant injury to someone. Even in one video where the individual isn't controlling the weapon well:

Kel-Tec PF9 range day - YouTube

It's still easily controlled, doesn't ever go flying out of the shooter's hands, and clearly doesn't expend enough force to give someone black eyes, a broken nose, and slam their head into the ground.

Let's take another look at the laceration on his nose:

It is off to one side, and maybe a quarter of an inch long. If it was a gun recoiling so hard that it slammed his head back into the sidewalk, why is the injury so small? Logically, if the weapon hit the very center of his nose, it would have stopped there... but the lacerations would be equilateral - there would be two lines from the rear sights on each side of his nose. If the weapon only hit one side, and was with such great force... It seems to me that the weapon would have kept travelling, creating a much larger laceration down the side of his nose and possibly even an eye injury if we're to believe the force of the recoil was enough to bloody his nose, cause significant swelling, and potentially slam his head into the ground.

Let's not forget that his nose was, in fact, swollen and bloody:

Now, onto the question about hollow points.

It was asserted factually by someone that hollow points kill instantly or close to instantly. That they're meant for killing, and that someone who shoots someone with a hollow point round wishes to kill that person. It's also been stated numerous times that hollow points are used because they're so frangible.

Let's dissect this one by one:

Police almost exclusively use hollow point rounds because of the desire to not over-penetrate and their effectiveness at stopping the threat. However, I'm sure we are all aware that everyone the police shoots does not die. In fact, people have been hit multiple times by multiple police officers and still lived. The assertion that hollow points are some magical killer bullet that kills everyone instantly or close to instantly is patently false. Many factors go into death by gunshots, and a surprisingly large number of people live despite being shot.

The second assertion is that they are meant for killing. This is pretty true. However, the assertion makes it seem as if all types of rounds (except LTL, of course) are not meant for killing. If you are using deadly force, you are beyond the point of trying to keep someone alive. The whole premise behind deadly force is that the person will possibly die. You don't just shoot someone to wound them. You don't use a round to defend yourself based on how well it doesn't stop a target.

This leads into the third point - hollow point bullets expand inside the body. They aren't necessarily any more "frangible" than a regular fully-jacketed round. .223 rifle slugs are well-known for their frangibility and they're high-speed FMJ rounds. The point behind hollow point bullets is that they expend all of their force inside the body cavity/wound channel by expanding outward and mushrooming. This delivers a more devastating wound, depending on where the individual is hit, and also helps to prevent the round from exiting the body. Because all of the force is used up when the bullet mushrooms, the velocity of the round is greatly reduced when it enters the body and the threat of over-penetration and possibly hitting something you did not intend to hit is greatly lessened.

In my opinion, using hollow points is vastly more responsible than using fully jacketed rounds. If you're using deadly force, the threat needs to be stopped - HPs help effect this. You also don't want to over-penetrate and hit someone or something you did not intend to hit - HPs win in this category again.

:twocents:

All in my opinion as someone that is very proficient with firearms, works in the industry, has shot everything from .22LR to .50BMG, regularly places in the top third of shooting competitions, and has a concealed carry permit.

Click to expand...

bellaalex said:

It is too bad that George Zimmerman's involvement in getting justice for a black homeless man beaten up by the then Sanford Police Chief's son was not widely publicized. Anything pro GZ in the media isn't widely reported.
Interestingly enough, the current Judge Nelson was also the judge in the previous case.
http://www.nejamelaw.com/rick-jancha-in-the-news/cops-son-gets-probation.html

http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/05/trayvon_george_and_the_homeless_man.html
From article:
Upset at the lack of media attention, Zimmerman and his wife Shellie printed fliers demanding that the community "hold accountable" officers responsible for any misconduct.

They then drove the fliers around to area churches and passed them out on a Sunday morning. Later, at a public meeting in January 2011, Zimmerman took the floor and said, "I would just like to state that the law is written in black and white. It should not and cannot be enforced in the gray for those that are in the thin blue line."

This meeting was recorded on video. As a result of the publicity, Police Chief Brian Tooley, whom Zimmerman blasted for his "illegal cover-up and corruption," was forced to resign.

Ironically, perhaps, Zimmerman headlined his fliers with a famous quote from Anglo-Irish statesman Edmund Burke: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." He would have been better off quoting another Anglo-Irishman, Oscar Wilde: "No good deed goes unpunished."
<modsnip>


.....................
No good deed goes unpunished. Indeed.

Click to expand...

bellaalex said:

It is too bad that George Zimmerman's involvement in getting justice for a black homeless man beaten up by the then Sanford Police Chief's son was not widely publicized. Anything pro GZ in the media isn't widely reported.
Interestingly enough, the current Judge Nelson was also the judge in the previous case.
http://www.nejamelaw.com/rick-jancha-in-the-news/cops-son-gets-probation.html

http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/05/trayvon_george_and_the_homeless_man.html
From article:
Upset at the lack of media attention, Zimmerman and his wife Shellie printed fliers demanding that the community "hold accountable" officers responsible for any misconduct.

They then drove the fliers around to area churches and passed them out on a Sunday morning. Later, at a public meeting in January 2011, Zimmerman took the floor and said, "I would just like to state that the law is written in black and white. It should not and cannot be enforced in the gray for those that are in the thin blue line."

This meeting was recorded on video. As a result of the publicity, Police Chief Brian Tooley, whom Zimmerman blasted for his "illegal cover-up and corruption," was forced to resign.

Ironically, perhaps, Zimmerman headlined his fliers with a famous quote from Anglo-Irish statesman Edmund Burke: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." He would have been better off quoting another Anglo-Irishman, Oscar Wilde: "No good deed goes unpunished."
<modsnip>


.....................
No good deed goes unpunished. Indeed.

Click to expand...

rose222 said:

At this stage of the trial I don't think folks on here are going to change their minds about Zimmerman's innocence or guilt. It's just nice having this little niche of our own while we wait for the verdict. I have some nice cheese pizza to keep up my strength. Of course once they tell us that there is a verdict I'll be a nervous wreck.

Hopefully there will be peace all around regardless of the verdict. Prayers for everyone to keep it together.

Click to expand...

m00c0w said:

I have seen something repeatedly discussed in the thread that, IMO, is an unfounded assertion based on little evidence.

Let's try to take an objective look at the notion that Zimmerman's weapon recoiling into his face may have cut his nose, bloodied it, potentially broken it, and slammed his head into the ground.

Here are three videos of the weapon being fired:

Kel-Tec PF9 Range Day (Part 1) - YouTube
Kel-Tec PF9 Range Review: EDC or Closet Bound? - YouTube
KEL-TEC PF-9 ~ RANGE DAY - YouTube

This is not the amount of recoil I would expect to see to cause significant injury to someone. Even in one video where the individual isn't controlling the weapon well:

Kel-Tec PF9 range day - YouTube

It's still easily controlled, doesn't ever go flying out of the shooter's hands, and clearly doesn't expend enough force to give someone black eyes, a broken nose, and slam their head into the ground.

Let's take another look at the laceration on his nose:

It is off to one side, and maybe a quarter of an inch long. If it was a gun recoiling so hard that it slammed his head back into the sidewalk, why is the injury so small? Logically, if the weapon hit the very center of his nose, it would have stopped there... but the lacerations would be equilateral - there would be two lines from the rear sights on each side of his nose. If the weapon only hit one side, and was with such great force... It seems to me that the weapon would have kept travelling, creating a much larger laceration down the side of his nose and possibly even an eye injury if we're to believe the force of the recoil was enough to bloody his nose, cause significant swelling, and potentially slam his head into the ground.

Let's not forget that his nose was, in fact, swollen and bloody:

Now, onto the question about hollow points.

It was asserted factually by someone that hollow points kill instantly or close to instantly. That they're meant for killing, and that someone who shoots someone with a hollow point round wishes to kill that person. It's also been stated numerous times that hollow points are used because they're so frangible.

Let's dissect this one by one:

Police almost exclusively use hollow point rounds because of the desire to not over-penetrate and their effectiveness at stopping the threat. However, I'm sure we are all aware that everyone the police shoots does not die. In fact, people have been hit multiple times by multiple police officers and still lived. The assertion that hollow points are some magical killer bullet that kills everyone instantly or close to instantly is patently false. Many factors go into death by gunshots, and a surprisingly large number of people live despite being shot.

The second assertion is that they are meant for killing. This is pretty true. However, the assertion makes it seem as if all types of rounds (except LTL, of course) are not meant for killing. If you are using deadly force, you are beyond the point of trying to keep someone alive. The whole premise behind deadly force is that the person will possibly die. You don't just shoot someone to wound them. You don't use a round to defend yourself based on how well it doesn't stop a target.

This leads into the third point - hollow point bullets expand inside the body. They aren't necessarily any more "frangible" than a regular fully-jacketed round. .223 rifle slugs are well-known for their frangibility and they're high-speed FMJ rounds. The point behind hollow point bullets is that they expend all of their force inside the body cavity/wound channel by expanding outward and mushrooming. This delivers a more devastating wound, depending on where the individual is hit, and also helps to prevent the round from exiting the body. Because all of the force is used up when the bullet mushrooms, the velocity of the round is greatly reduced when it enters the body and the threat of over-penetration and possibly hitting something you did not intend to hit is greatly lessened.

In my opinion, using hollow points is vastly more responsible than using fully jacketed rounds. If you're using deadly force, the threat needs to be stopped - HPs help effect this. You also don't want to over-penetrate and hit someone or something you did not intend to hit - HPs win in this category again.

:twocents:

All in my opinion as someone that is very proficient with firearms, works in the industry, has shot everything from .22LR to .50BMG, regularly places in the top third of shooting competitions, and has a concealed carry permit.

Click to expand...

Mahouston69 said:

You are showing no one laying on the ground, wrestling for control of the gun, twisting, turning, arms pushed and pulled- seconds to line up the shot with the non dominant hand and firing this pistol between two bodies, just inches from his face!! There is no video of that scenario- or the injuries that would occur from a twisted barrel flip and recoil. He wasn't just standing there firing like on a firing range while Trayvon held still.

Click to expand...

iluvmua said:

So if George is found guilty he will have to stay in jail for at least 18 months correct?

I also hope this jury votes out of fear that riots will start if they do not give the correct verdict.

Click to expand...

iluvmua said:

IIRC, they did go door to door, the investigation lasted for several hours.

George never said Trayvon was a intent on burglary.

He thought he might be one, but he never right out said that he was. IMO

Click to expand...

m00c0w said:

I have seen something repeatedly discussed in the thread that, IMO, is an unfounded assertion based on little evidence.

Let's try to take an objective look at the notion that Zimmerman's weapon recoiling into his face may have cut his nose, bloodied it, potentially broken it, and slammed his head into the ground.

Here are three videos of the weapon being fired:

Kel-Tec PF9 Range Day (Part 1) - YouTube
Kel-Tec PF9 Range Review: EDC or Closet Bound? - YouTube
KEL-TEC PF-9 ~ RANGE DAY - YouTube

This is not the amount of recoil I would expect to see to cause significant injury to someone. Even in one video where the individual isn't controlling the weapon well:

Kel-Tec PF9 range day - YouTube

It's still easily controlled, doesn't ever go flying out of the shooter's hands, and clearly doesn't expend enough force to give someone black eyes, a broken nose, and slam their head into the ground.

Let's take another look at the laceration on his nose:

It is off to one side, and maybe a quarter of an inch long. If it was a gun recoiling so hard that it slammed his head back into the sidewalk, why is the injury so small? Logically, if the weapon hit the very center of his nose, it would have stopped there... but the lacerations would be equilateral - there would be two lines from the rear sights on each side of his nose. If the weapon only hit one side, and was with such great force... It seems to me that the weapon would have kept travelling, creating a much larger laceration down the side of his nose and possibly even an eye injury if we're to believe the force of the recoil was enough to bloody his nose, cause significant swelling, and potentially slam his head into the ground.

Let's not forget that his nose was, in fact, swollen and bloody:

Now, onto the question about hollow points.

It was asserted factually by someone that hollow points kill instantly or close to instantly. That they're meant for killing, and that someone who shoots someone with a hollow point round wishes to kill that person. It's also been stated numerous times that hollow points are used because they're so frangible.

Let's dissect this one by one:

Police almost exclusively use hollow point rounds because of the desire to not over-penetrate and their effectiveness at stopping the threat. However, I'm sure we are all aware that everyone the police shoots does not die. In fact, people have been hit multiple times by multiple police officers and still lived. The assertion that hollow points are some magical killer bullet that kills everyone instantly or close to instantly is patently false. Many factors go into death by gunshots, and a surprisingly large number of people live despite being shot.

The second assertion is that they are meant for killing. This is pretty true. However, the assertion makes it seem as if all types of rounds (except LTL, of course) are not meant for killing. If you are using deadly force, you are beyond the point of trying to keep someone alive. The whole premise behind deadly force is that the person will possibly die. You don't just shoot someone to wound them. You don't use a round to defend yourself based on how well it doesn't stop a target.

This leads into the third point - hollow point bullets expand inside the body. They aren't necessarily any more "frangible" than a regular fully-jacketed round. .223 rifle slugs are well-known for their frangibility and they're high-speed FMJ rounds. The point behind hollow point bullets is that they expend all of their force inside the body cavity/wound channel by expanding outward and mushrooming. This delivers a more devastating wound, depending on where the individual is hit, and also helps to prevent the round from exiting the body. Because all of the force is used up when the bullet mushrooms, the velocity of the round is greatly reduced when it enters the body and the threat of over-penetration and possibly hitting something you did not intend to hit is greatly lessened.

In my opinion, using hollow points is vastly more responsible than using fully jacketed rounds. If you're using deadly force, the threat needs to be stopped - HPs help effect this. You also don't want to over-penetrate and hit someone or something you did not intend to hit - HPs win in this category again.

:twocents:

All in my opinion as someone that is very proficient with firearms, works in the industry, has shot everything from .22LR to .50BMG, regularly places in the top third of shooting competitions, and has a concealed carry permit.

Click to expand...

Fluffy Puppy said:

From time to time (like right now, lol) it occurs to me that this trial is geographically near the location of the Casey Anthony trial. Given the public outcry against the Casey Anthony verdict, I am wondering if this could work against the defense in this case?

Click to expand...

SunnyinMO said:

Hi WS'ers, I have stayed away from posting on this trial because I like being here. But today I will state that the state did not have a case to begin with and their underhandedness has proved to me my initial thoughts were true. Oh yes, in case you haven't heard the IT Director who testified that the state did NOT turn over information to the Defense has been FIRED. Guess it doesn't pay to tell the truth in Sanford FL. If George is convicted it will be yet another miscarriage of justice in FL. CA got off with killing Caylee.......will GZ pay for defending himself? ALL is JMO.

Click to expand...

m00c0w said:

I have seen something repeatedly discussed in the thread that, IMO, is an unfounded assertion based on little evidence.

Let's try to take an objective look at the notion that Zimmerman's weapon recoiling into his face may have cut his nose, bloodied it, potentially broken it, and slammed his head into the ground.

Here are three videos of the weapon being fired:

Kel-Tec PF9 Range Day (Part 1) - YouTube
Kel-Tec PF9 Range Review: EDC or Closet Bound? - YouTube
KEL-TEC PF-9 ~ RANGE DAY - YouTube

This is not the amount of recoil I would expect to see to cause significant injury to someone. Even in one video where the individual isn't controlling the weapon well:

Kel-Tec PF9 range day - YouTube

It's still easily controlled, doesn't ever go flying out of the shooter's hands, and clearly doesn't expend enough force to give someone black eyes, a broken nose, and slam their head into the ground.

Let's take another look at the laceration on his nose:

It is off to one side, and maybe a quarter of an inch long. If it was a gun recoiling so hard that it slammed his head back into the sidewalk, why is the injury so small? Logically, if the weapon hit the very center of his nose, it would have stopped there... but the lacerations would be equilateral - there would be two lines from the rear sights on each side of his nose. If the weapon only hit one side, and was with such great force... It seems to me that the weapon would have kept travelling, creating a much larger laceration down the side of his nose and possibly even an eye injury if we're to believe the force of the recoil was enough to bloody his nose, cause significant swelling, and potentially slam his head into the ground.

Let's not forget that his nose was, in fact, swollen and bloody:

Now, onto the question about hollow points.

It was asserted factually by someone that hollow points kill instantly or close to instantly. That they're meant for killing, and that someone who shoots someone with a hollow point round wishes to kill that person. It's also been stated numerous times that hollow points are used because they're so frangible.

Let's dissect this one by one:

Police almost exclusively use hollow point rounds because of the desire to not over-penetrate and their effectiveness at stopping the threat. However, I'm sure we are all aware that everyone the police shoots does not die. In fact, people have been hit multiple times by multiple police officers and still lived. The assertion that hollow points are some magical killer bullet that kills everyone instantly or close to instantly is patently false. Many factors go into death by gunshots, and a surprisingly large number of people live despite being shot.

The second assertion is that they are meant for killing. This is pretty true. However, the assertion makes it seem as if all types of rounds (except LTL, of course) are not meant for killing. If you are using deadly force, you are beyond the point of trying to keep someone alive. The whole premise behind deadly force is that the person will possibly die. You don't just shoot someone to wound them. You don't use a round to defend yourself based on how well it doesn't stop a target.

This leads into the third point - hollow point bullets expand inside the body. They aren't necessarily any more "frangible" than a regular fully-jacketed round. .223 rifle slugs are well-known for their frangibility and they're high-speed FMJ rounds. The point behind hollow point bullets is that they expend all of their force inside the body cavity/wound channel by expanding outward and mushrooming. This delivers a more devastating wound, depending on where the individual is hit, and also helps to prevent the round from exiting the body. Because all of the force is used up when the bullet mushrooms, the velocity of the round is greatly reduced when it enters the body and the threat of over-penetration and possibly hitting something you did not intend to hit is greatly lessened.

In my opinion, using hollow points is vastly more responsible than using fully jacketed rounds. If you're using deadly force, the threat needs to be stopped - HPs help effect this. You also don't want to over-penetrate and hit someone or something you did not intend to hit - HPs win in this category again.

:twocents:
.


All in my opinion as someone that is very proficient with firearms, works in the industry, has shot everything from .22LR to .50BMG, regularly places in the top third of shooting competitions, and has a concealed carry permit.

Click to expand...