Conrad Murray Trial - Day Twenty Two

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oceanblueeyes said:
I was floored when White said that Murray himself loaded the propofol up and left in the bedroom. Oh my goodness White helped to cook Murray's goose.

However I don't believe that is what happened for one second.

I believe he gave him a bolus and then a drip. I don't believe he tried to cut back on the nights prior either.

Well ya get my drift! I wouldn't believe Murray if I saw his tongue being notarized right in front of my eyes.:floorlaugh:
Click to expand...

It just doesn't seem possible that the defense team lawyers did not understand the Involuntary Manslaughter law in California. Just seems bizarre to me that they would so strongly argue a theory that still falls under the law to convict.

But really, when thinking about it, they had virtually nothing to work with to defend CMs actions. He'd have done better to come clean and beg the DAs mercy from the get go.
 
Talina said:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,3651619.story

excerpt from end of article:

Over defense attorneys' objections, Pastor also accepted a jury instruction that goes to the question of whether Murray could be convicted even if jurors believe the defense's contention that Jackson injected himself.

Jurors will be told that Murray is still criminally liable "if the defendant should have foreseen the possibility of harm that could result from his act."
Click to expand...

Good afternoon all :)

Based on the excerpts from the jury instructions this should be an easy guilty verdict made at least by end of day Friday.

If the jurors go beyond Friday for verdict; I think it will be a hung jury.
 
Talina said:
It just doesn't seem possible that the defense team lawyers did not understand the Involuntary Manslaughter law in California. Just seems bizarre to me that they would so strongly argue a theory that still falls under the law to convict.

But really, when thinking about it, they had virtually nothing to work with to defend CMs actions. He'd have done better to come clean and beg the DAs mercy from the get go.
Click to expand...

I think the defense team did the best they could with what they had to work with. There really is no defense for his actions/behavior.

Having said that, it only takes one juror to believe that if MJ self-injected it was his fault; to take it upon themselves for nullification resulting in a hung jury. I hope that is not the case.
 
Talina said:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,3651619.story

excerpt from end of article:

Over defense attorneys' objections, Pastor also accepted a jury instruction that goes to the question of whether Murray could be convicted even if jurors believe the defense's contention that Jackson injected himself.

Jurors will be told that Murray is still criminally liable "if the defendant should have foreseen the possibility of harm that could result from his act."
Click to expand...

So basically the entire defense was null and void; a waste of time. But then what else is a defense team suppose to do when their client did something that is indefensible? If I was on the jury and heard this part of the instructions I would be shaking my head and voting guilty as fast as I could.

Makes one wonder why Murray wasted the courts time and money and did not just plead guilty or try to get a reduced charge with the surrender of his medical license. Oh never mind, that is what Murray was trying to keep, his medical license. I sure hope he looses that in the US.
 
I think we are going to see a quick guilty decision.
 
Thundar said:
So basically the entire defense was null and void; a waste of time. But then what else is a defense team suppose to do when their client did something that is indefensible? If I was on the jury and heard this part of the instructions I would be shaking my head and voting guilty as fast as I could.

Makes one wonder why Murray wasted the courts time and money and did not just plead guilty or try to get a reduced charge with the surrender of his medical license. Oh never mind, that is what Murray was trying to keep, his medical license. I sure hope he looses that in the US.
Click to expand...

The first thing I would do if I was Walgren is remind the jury of who the defendant really is and it is NOT Michael Jackson. He is the victim in this case.

IMO
 
Credence said:
Good afternoon all :)

Based on the excerpts from the jury instructions this should be an easy guilty verdict made at least by end of day Friday.

If the jurors go beyond Friday for verdict; I think it will be a hung jury.
Click to expand...

I have learned not to put time limits on juries. I have seen some that went on over a week and I thought surely it was going to be a hung jury but in the end the verdict was guilty.

So I don't know how long it will take them but I just don't see nullification in this case.

IMO
 
oceanblueeyes said:
I was floored when White said that Murray himself loaded the propofol up and left in the bedroom. Oh my goodness White helped to cook Murray's goose.

However I don't believe that is what happened for one second.

I believe he gave him a bolus and then a drip. I don't believe he tried to cut back on the nights prior either.

Well ya get my drift! I wouldn't believe Murray if I saw his tongue being notarized right in front of my eyes.:floorlaugh:
Click to expand...

I think so too. IIRC the bottle with the defendant's print on it was 100 ml? Why open a 100 ml. bottle if you only intend to give 25 ml? Those bottles, IIRC, are labeled to use within 6 hours of opening. Also, did the defense ever give an explanation of why that saline bag was slit? Even if you have doubts about the propofol being propped up in that bag (and I don't), why would a slit bag be hanging from the IV stand?
 
outofstatelawyer said:
I think so too. IIRC the bottle with the defendant's print on it was 100 ml? Why open a 100 ml. bottle if you only intend to give 25 ml? Those bottles, IIRC, are labeled to use within 6 hours of opening. Also, did the defense ever give an explanation of why that saline bag was slit? Even if you have doubts about the propofol being propped up in that bag (and I don't), why would a slit bag be hanging from the IV stand?
Click to expand...

I believe you are correct. I cant see any other purpose why the saline bag would be slit hanging from the IV pole. Dr. Shafer didn't have to tirelessly work with this demonstration to get it to work. Although unorthodox it was a very simple quick thing to do.

Also the bottle remained in the saline bag without any problem even though DS used a slenderer propofol bottle than the one Murray did. So Murray's bottle would be larger around making it be tighter in the bag where it would stay in place.

Exactly, he ordered the 100 ml for the drips.
He ordered the 20 ml bottles to be used for the boluses. I dont think he had a clue that the propofol was to be discarded if not used in 6 hours after opening or he just took the risk.

IMO
 
Dr. Conrad Murray DA David Walgren ‘Bringing Sexy Back’ To The Courtroom

Walgren has impressed courthouse onlookers with his impressive legal skills and professionalism. However, it's his JFK Jr. resemblance that has inspired a YouTube video montage of Walgren set to Justin Timberlake's hit, Sexy Back.

Walgren is happily married to Deputy District Attorney Nicol Walgren, and the couple have two children.

Take a look at David Walgren bringing Sexy Back below:

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusiv...da-david-walgren-bringing-sexy-back-courtroom
 
Velouria said:
OMG YES! Just watching the footage of Dr. White leaving the courthouse on IS. Poor guy just seems so out of it. WHY would he choose to walk right through the throngs of supporters and protesters?
Click to expand...


It's probably the same spot where the cab let him off that morning.... yeah, I may be wrong, but I don't think he's much of a schemer or anything -- but he was, shall we say, shading his testimony just a bit :)eek:) for the DT -- some folks might call it "selling his soul"..... But I think he's a bit of a brainiac mixed with a touch of nerd and that university-ivory-tower view of the world.
 
Talina said:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,3651619.story

excerpt from end of article:

Over defense attorneys' objections, Pastor also accepted a jury instruction that goes to the question of whether Murray could be convicted even if jurors believe the defense's contention that Jackson injected himself.

Jurors will be told that Murray is still criminally liable "if the defendant should have foreseen the possibility of harm that could result from his act."
Click to expand...


Ooooohhhh Yesssssssssss! No offense to the brilliant JP in the slightest, but at least HE gets it. That little part should take care of those jurors wondering about that aspect of possible guilt. It might just point that potential "doubter" in the correct direction!!

A Victory for the People on that one, folks!!

Thanks, Talina, for finding that tidbit!!:great:
 
borndem said:
Ooooohhhh Yesssssssssss! No offense to the brilliant JP in the slightest, but at least HE gets it. That little part should take care of those jurors wondering about that aspect of possible guilt. It might just point that potential "doubter" in the correct direction!!

A Victory for the People on that one, folks!!

Thanks, Talina, for finding that tidbit!!:great:
Click to expand...

I really believe the verdict will be based on reasoning and common sense.

One thing the DT did not address.... which is just as much an elephant in the room as the propofol... and that is the slit saline bag.:waitasec: What other purpose could there be that would dismiss the propofol bottle being put in it? There isn't anything else that logically explains it.

Then we have Murray's fingerprint only on that bottle and MJs are no where to be found nor on the lorazepam bottle or syringe. We also have the tear in the rubber stopper that could only come from a spike being used when setting up a drip.

I don't believe Murray ever tried to wean MJ off. Why would he buy 100 ml and 200 ml bottles if he didn't plan to use each bottle all at one time? He said he gave a drip for almost 2 months. The smaller ml bottles were used for the initial boluses given nightly. It clearly states on the product information that any unused propofol is to be discarded 6 hours after it is opened.

The drip is consistent with the evidence presented. It is not consistent with MJ injecting just 25 more mgs. The propofol femoral blood level would not be 40 times higher than the 25 mgs Murray said he gave him even adding the 25 mgs that White said MJ injected.

The defense theory just doesn't compute.:maddening:

If the saline bag is slit then you cannot acquit.

IMOO
 
Talina said:
It just doesn't seem possible that the defense team lawyers did not understand the Involuntary Manslaughter law in California. Just seems bizarre to me that they would so strongly argue a theory that still falls under the law to convict.

But really, when thinking about it, they had virtually nothing to work with to defend CMs actions. He'd have done better to come clean and beg the DAs mercy from the get go.
Click to expand...


Yes and yes and yes.

They had nothing to start with and now they have less than that.
icon10.gif
 
Credence said:
Good afternoon all :)

Based on the excerpts from the jury instructions this should be an easy guilty verdict made at least by end of day Friday.

If the jurors go beyond Friday for verdict; I think it will be a hung jury.
Click to expand...


I don't see that the jurors have a choice, and I'm a bit superstitious to say that I agree, Credence, but I do (if I gnawed my nails, I'd be gnawing them now) -- there is no "out" on this one. None. <gnaw, gnaw> And so very self-evident from the beginning, as has already been said.

Self-infliction by MJ was not feasible, as we have all agreed. The good Dr. Shafer laid that out clearly enuff for anyone to see & understand. Even in a rush and sober and alert enuff to accomplish it, which was impossible, it did not matter. It was CM's propofol, his equipment and his nightly routine for 80 or so days in a row.

CM equipped, ran & owned that "treatment room," and now he should own the verdict.
icon8.gif


<gnaw, gnaw>
 
oceanblueeyes said:
I believe you are correct. I cant see any other purpose why the saline bag would be slit hanging from the IV pole. Dr. Shafer didn't have to tirelessly work with this demonstration to get it to work. Although unorthodox it was a very simple quick thing to do.

Also the bottle remained in the saline bag without any problem even though DS used a slenderer propofol bottle than the one Murray did. So Murray's bottle would be larger around making it be tighter in the bag where it would stay in place.

Exactly, he ordered the 100 ml for the drips.
He ordered the 20 ml bottles to be used for the boluses. I dont think he had a clue that the propofol was to be discarded if not used in 6 hours after opening or he just took the risk.

IMO
Click to expand...

And I think, as someone said earlier, that CM used that same slit bag night after night. Yuck. If this routine had persisted beyond the 25th, MJ might well have died from sepsis. Seriously. What a &!(% +~(% that man was to Michael Jackson. Grrrrrrrrrrr.
 
borndem said:
And I think, as someone said earlier, that CM used that same slit bag night after night. Yuck. If this routine had persisted beyond the 25th, MJ might well have died from sepsis. Seriously. What a &!(% +~(% that man was to Michael Jackson. Grrrrrrrrrrr.
Click to expand...

It is reprehensible for sure Borndem!

Oh btw you asked me the other day how I was feeling and I was feeling so bad at that time I didn't even have the energy to post back. Sorry for my bad manners.:blushing: But I did finally go to the doctor and I have four fractured ribs and I also bruised my spleen so it has been a really tough go so I haven't posted a lot in the past few days.

I have read all the posts though and I sure have missed interacting with all of you throughout the trial day.

I am getting better though............slowly. (sigh):banghead:

So hopefully tomorrow I will be here while the trial is going on.

IMO
 
borndem said:
Ooooohhhh Yesssssssssss! No offense to the brilliant JP in the slightest, but at least HE gets it. That little part should take care of those jurors wondering about that aspect of possible guilt. It might just point that potential "doubter" in the correct direction!!

A Victory for the People on that one, folks!!

Thanks, Talina, for finding that tidbit!!:great:
Click to expand...

Decision by JP on he level of genius. So glad he is allowing that. After all that would be the 'negligent' part of the charge.
 
borndem said:
And I think, as someone said earlier, that CM used that same slit bag night after night. Yuck. If this routine had persisted beyond the 25th, MJ might well have died from sepsis. Seriously. What a &!(% +~(% that man was to Michael Jackson. Grrrrrrrrrrr.
Click to expand...


Don't know that the same saline bags uses over and over to hold the propofol bottle would cause infection, though it is possible. I was concerned that Murray may have used propofol that was open more than 24 hours and may have caused symptoms Michael had the weeks before; he may have been strong enough to shake it off. I just can't comprehend what Murray did. How absolutely awful for his mother and family to know these things. So very sad.
 
oceanblueeyes said:
It is reprehensible for sure Borndem!

Oh btw you asked me the other day how I was feeling and I was feeling so bad at that time I didn't even have the energy to post back. Sorry for my bad manners.:blushing: But I did finally go to the doctor and I have four fractured ribs and I also bruised my spleen so it has been a really tough go so I haven't posted a lot in the past few days.

I have read all the posts though and I sure have missed interacting with all of you throughout the trial day.

I am getting better though............slowly. (sigh):banghead:

So hopefully tomorrow I will be here while the trial is going on.

IMO
Click to expand...

Oh my goodness girl! Good thing you didn't puncture a lung or spleen. I hope he gave you some meds so you can rest well at night. Sleep is when healing happens! Bless you.
 
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