All About Chloroform#2

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I have a couple of questions .

1.Is it possible that the chloroform was produced by a mixture of urine and a chlorine-based laundry soaker?
Caylee was potty training and CA would have been soaking her wet underwear/clothing/bedding........
(Especially now that we know the laundry bag was likely in the trunk at some point)
Possible, or not?

2. Does anyone recognize these laundry products so I can check them to see if they are chlorine vs ogygen based ? I'm not familiar with the U.S brands- and its not a great pic to start with, TIA:blowkiss:

laundry.jpg
 
butwhatif - the one on the right is definitely bleach.....trying to figure out the purple bottle.
 
butwhatif? said:
I have a couple of questions .

1.Is it possible that the chloroform was produced by a mixture of urine and a chlorine-based laundry soaker?
Caylee was potty training and CA would have been soaking her wet underwear/clothing/bedding........
(Especially now that we know the laundry bag was likely in the trunk at some point)
Possible, or not?

2. Does anyone recognize these laundry products so I can check them to see if they are chlorine vs ogygen based ? I'm not familiar with the U.S brands- and its not a great pic to start with, TIA:blowkiss:


laundry.jpg
Click to expand...


Hi, butwhatif. :) Ammonia (found in decomposed urine) mixed with chlorine could possibly produce hydrochloric acid.

http://www.pneac.org/sheets/all/msds.cfm


ETA: This combination (ammonia and chlorine) can also produce chloramine. Of course the warnings are NEVER to mix these two chemicals:

<snipped>

Chloramine Basics

What is chloramine?
Chloramine is a disinfectant used to treat drinking water. It is formed by mixing chlorine with ammonia. Although it is a weaker disinfectant than chlorine, it is more stable and extends disinfectant benefits throughout a water utility's distribution system (a system of pipes water is delivered to homes through). Some water systems use chloramine as a secondary disinfectant to maintain a disinfectant residual throughout the distribution system so that drinking water remains safe as it travels from the treatment facility to the customer. Chloramine has been used by water systems for almost 90 years, and its use is closely regulated.


http://www.epa.gov/safewater/disinfection/chloramine/#one
 
I've always wondered about the Pool box being moved. Is it possible she could have put "pool shock" in the bag with the remains? ( God, that made me sick just typing it!)
 
reeseeva said:
I've always wondered about the Pool box being moved. Is it possible she could have put "pool shock" in the bag with the remains? ( God, that made me sick just typing it!)
Click to expand...

I agree, reeseeva. It's always sad to have to discuss the details in this case. I do believe you're right about the pool shock/chemicals being significant. We know that LE was searching for "chemical components that maybe used to make chloroform." And although there's been no return on the search warrant, it's been widely reported that pool chemicals were taken from the Anthony's property.


http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=6464439&page=1


Casey could easily have mixed up a batch of chloroform using pool shock.
 
Indigo said:
I agree, reeseeva. It's always sad to have to discuss the details in this case. I do believe you're right about the pool shock/chemicals being significant. We know that LE was searching for "chemical components that maybe used to make chloroform." And although there's been no return on the search warrant, it's been widely reported that pool chemicals were taken from the Anthony's property.


http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=6464439&page=1


Casey could easily have mixed up a batch of chloroform using pool shock.
Click to expand...

Just to add: I just did a search for "acetone" and among the first links to come up was a website which advertised "100% pure acetone nail polish remover."
 
reeseeva said:
I've always wondered about the Pool box being moved. Is it possible she could have put "pool shock" in the bag with the remains? ( God, that made me sick just typing it!)
Click to expand...

Pool shock would have eaten right through a cloth laundry bag. Why would it be necessary to move the pool box to remove the pool shock anyway? I thought it was George and Cindy who moved the pool box after Caylee disappeared but before they knew of it.
 
It very clearly says in the report; "Residues of chloroform were identified within the specimens...Residues consistent with chloroform were detected within specimens...NO ADDITIONA CHEMICALS 9e.g. acetone or alcohol) were identified within the the examined specimens." [emphasis mine]

The report also says; "chloroform appears very early in human decomposition primarily ]detected in DEPRIVED OXYGEN (anaerobic) decomposition." [emphasis mine]

Nowhere in that report does it say that any chloroform was detected OTHER than that found in human decomposition and that level of chloroform is consistent with anaerobic conditions.
 
Bev said:
It very clearly says in the report; "Residues of chloroform were identified within the specimens...Residues consistent with chloroform were detected within specimens...NO ADDITIONA CHEMICALS 9e.g. acetone or alcohol) were identified within the the examined specimens." [emphasis mine]

The report also says; "chloroform appears very early in human decomposition primarily ]detected in DEPRIVED OXYGEN (anaerobic) decomposition." [emphasis mine]

Nowhere in that report does it say that any chloroform was detected OTHER than that found in human decomposition and that level of chloroform is consistent with anaerobic conditions.
Click to expand...

Hi, Bev. Thanks again for your input. In light of the recent search--
from Affadavit for Search Warrant (bold/underlining mine):

"..chemical components that may be used to make chloroform, receipts for purchases of same, containers that may be used to mix chemicals."

What is your opinion? At this late date is it likely that the FBI just hasn't made the results on the chloroform testing clear? What "chemical components" "used to make chloroform" would LE be looking for and why? TIA.
 
Frankly, I think LE is on a fishing expedition looking for any kind of weapon used to kill this child. I too think the chloroform search was coincidental to the death.
 
Bev said:
Frankly, I think LE is on a fishing expedition looking for any kind of weapon used to kill this child. I too think the chloroform search was coincidental to the death.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Bev.
 
Bev said:
It very clearly says in the report; "Residues of chloroform were identified within the specimens...Residues consistent with chloroform were detected within specimens...NO ADDITIONA CHEMICALS 9e.g. acetone or alcohol) were identified within the the examined specimens." [emphasis mine]

The report also says; "chloroform appears very early in human decomposition primarily ]detected in DEPRIVED OXYGEN (anaerobic) decomposition." [emphasis mine]

Nowhere in that report does it say that any chloroform was detected OTHER than that found in human decomposition and that level of chloroform is consistent with anaerobic conditions.
Click to expand...
I am not arguing with the thinking behind your post. I do not think there is enough evidence to say KC used chloroform, and I think it unlikely she did, and even less likely she manufactured any. However, the report does say "large concentration of chloroform" I think from chemical reactions of cleaning products adding to the traces that would have occured from decomposition.

LE has to follow this chloroform lead and look for evidence. Chemicals they might find to "make" chloroform will partially be sources of Chlorine such as bleach. I think that is more likely to have got into the trunk during cleaning, rather than from KC operating a home chemistry experiment.
 
I know, Hercule, but the problem is in the phrase "no additional chemicals were identified" which might indicate that the chloroform present was that put off by human decomposition rather than any kind of manufactured event. If no acetone or alcohol residues were found on the specimens, then I would doubt that cleaning products resulted in the amount of chloroform residue present in the specimens.
 
Bev said:
It very clearly says in the report; "Residues of chloroform were identified within the specimens...Residues consistent with chloroform were detected within specimens...NO ADDITIONA CHEMICALS 9e.g. acetone or alcohol) were identified within the the examined specimens." [emphasis mine]

The report also says; "chloroform appears very early in human decomposition primarily ]detected in DEPRIVED OXYGEN (anaerobic) decomposition." [emphasis mine]

Nowhere in that report does it say that any chloroform was detected OTHER than that found in human decomposition and that level of chloroform is consistent with anaerobic conditions.
Click to expand...

I haven't pulled up the report again, but off the top of my head, there are 2 references to high levels of chloroform, I believe one of them is 'unusually high concentration of chloroform', or something to that effect. My interpretation of the way the report reads is there was more chloroform found than what would be consistent with simply a decompositional event.
I'm not a chemical expert, but the people who ran all these tests are. I doubt this is the first time by far they have ever had to test for decomp in a car, or elsewhere under similar conditions. The fact LE got a search warrant to look for evidence of chloroform seems to mean something other than what was found in the trunk is a normal occurance due to decomposition.
Lanie
 
I've just reread that report and again, nowhere in that report does it say an unusual amount was found - it says the high amount is consistent with a death in anaerobic conditions and that chloroform is significant in the early stages of decomposition.
 
Bev said:
I've just reread that report and again, nowhere in that report does it say an unusual amount was found - it says the high amount is consistent with a death in anaerobic conditions and that chloroform is significant in the early stages of decomposition.
Click to expand...

I think this is the portion of the report in question (emphasis mine):


"Additional components that made up a portion of the total odor signature included gasoline constituents and an unusually large concentration of chloroform - far greater than what is typically seen in human decomposition."

Since chloroform is not seen in aerobic decomposition and only typically seen in anaerobic human decomposition, it appears that the chloroform levels were far greater than typically seen in any type of human decomposition. At least, that's how the wording appears to me.

Another contextual clue to the meaning is that the chloroform is grouped with the gasoline constituents. JMO, of course.
 
Bev said:
I've just reread that report and again, nowhere in that report does it say an unusual amount was found - it says the high amount is consistent with a death in anaerobic conditions and that chloroform is significant in the early stages of decomposition.
Click to expand...
I have the docs that were released some time ago:

p8 "large concentration of chloroform"
 
Bev said:
I've just reread that report and again, nowhere in that report does it say an unusual amount was found - it says the high amount is consistent with a death in anaerobic conditions and that chloroform is significant in the early stages of decomposition.
Click to expand...

Link:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...y-anthony-documents-102408,0,5346622.htmlpage

Page 20 of 34
"Several compounds were observed in this sample (primarily chloroform)..."

Page 26 of 34
"Of particular interest is the large concentration of chloroform (not a common ingredient in commercial products) and the presence of sulphur containing compounds..."

Page 28 of 34
"The correlation between all the techniques, the comparison to what is known about the decomposition of human and animal remains, indications of early decomposition products and the presence of the five key major compounds associated with human decomposition (primarily the sulfur containing compounds) indicates that a portion of the total odor signature identified in the Florida vehicle trunk is consistent with a decompositional event that could be of human origin. Additional components that made up a portion of the total odor signature included gasoline constituents and an unusually large concentration of chloroform - far greater than what is typically seen in human decomposition."

Bolded and underlined as consistant with report. Large red letters by me.
Lanie
 
Chloroform is detected in ALL human decomposition events. A higher level of chloroform is detected in those events in which the body was kept in an anaerobic condition.

The report says that compounds that were tentatively identified by mass spectral library match have NOT yet been run for standards.

Lanie, correct, a larger amount than is typically seen in human decomposition, but it does not say that the amount is unusual for a hde in anaerobic conditions.
 
Bev said:
Chloroform is detected in ALL human decomposition events. A higher level of chloroform is detected in those events in which the body was kept in an anaerobic condition.

The report says that compounds that were tentatively identified by mass spectral library match have NOT yet been run for standards.

Lanie, correct, a larger amount than is typically seen in human decomposition, but it does not say that the amount is unusual for a hde in anaerobic conditions.
Click to expand...

No, it doesn't, but it also isn't breaking up the human decomposition into different catagories, and it also doesn't say it is usual for anaerobic decomposition. Since it spells out earlier in the report the conditions matched with an anaerobic decompositional event, I don't see why they would make this statement if these were normal chloroform levels in this event. IMO, my perception of what has been stated in the report is the reporter felt the need to make a note of this, and even underline it. I just don't think the reporter would have done that if it meant nothing. What would be the point, other than to send LE on a wild goose chase with a search warrant looking for chloroform?
Lanie
 
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