Conrad Murray trial -Day fifteen

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LyndyLoo said:
Whoopsey..Just noted alot more have come onto thread..only Ocean was here when I started typings...Howdy ya all :seeya:
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:wave: Hi back to ya, Lindy Loo! Yes, we come & go, but we're a good bunch -- not a big, big crowd of folks -- which is nice, I think -- but a faithful and attentive bunch we are indeed.

It's good to see you're on here with us!

We'll all just hang on and see where this goes. We've got an extra-good judge, IMO, and he seems very fair & he is not letting either the DT or the PT get away with any sobbing or shouting or over-acting or reacting. No dramatics allowed. Save it for the soaps.

And to oceanblueeyes, if you're out there, I hope you and your ribs are feeling better today, but it's a long, painful haul. Thinking good thoughts that you can get a good night's sleep. Just remember not to move very often & you'll feel better soon!!!
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katydid23 said:
I personally don't think he is trying to hide anything either. But his demeanor is making him look pretty nervous because he is not used to being called out so rudely like this. And i hope the jury does not buy what Chernoff is selling.

Like that one line, when Chernoff is busting Shafers chops for doing that chilean 2 month Propofol study. Chernoff ends it by saying something like " wouldn't ANY first year medical student know that was prepostorous?"

And Dr Schafer answers '"YES." That got the defense some points, imo.
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I dunno... My impression of that exchange was a bit different -- in my mind, Cher's question could also have applied to his own witness, White, when he postulated that drinking propofol could be effective and therefore, deadly. Any first year med student would know that, too. I thought it was a bad idea for him to bring it up again. But that's just me and MO.
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Talina said:
I think what is being lost here is the main reason Dr. Shafer said this study was done (the oral ingestion of propofol). It was said so quick on direct and then just moved on, that I hope Walgren clears it up on cross.

He said that the FDA was making noises about making propofol a controlled substance and that the medical profession did not want that to happen. It would make it a lot more difficult for doctors to easily get it when they need it to be available quickly. There's more hoops to jump through and procedures to follow it is a controlled substance. The study proved that oral consumption is not dangerous (i.e. instant death as the defense was saying for awhile and the media was running with that as a viable defense theory - it was getting the FDA all up in arms saying why isn't this a controlled substance) which would be the main method of a lay person using it on their own.

So, yes any first year medical student would have known about the liver taking 95% of the drug out first run (or whatever it is called) and so this study would normally be a waste of time and money; however, given the publicity of this trial, no previous studies done on humans, but only done on other mammals, we should probably go through this exercise and prove it is not dangerous to humans to get the FDA off their path of making it a controlled substance. A lot easier to argue with the FDA with that actual study in hand than it is to say "well what are the odds given the other studies of oral consumption done on animals?".

Therein lies the basis for him being disappointed in Dr. White even putting that possibility in his report. He should have known that is not a viable possibility given his expertise in the field and him being primarily a researcher. He knew full well of the other animal oral consumption studies. So now, with the esteemed Dr. White having that in his report to the defense, the media making hayday out of it, the FDA steps up and says oh wait...we should make that a controlled substance. Yes, Dr. Shafer had every reason to be disappointed in someone as well known in the field as Dr. White is to be making that sort of representation in his report. It had other far reaching consequences to their field of medicine than just this trial.

IMO
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Good post, Talina! I was gonna post on that same thing, but you so eloquently beat me to it! Thanks for bringing us back to the point of it.

Dr. Shafer in that study was defending propofol in one more way with human ingestion, which he knew would not be harmful in any way. He early on stated what a good & reliable anesthetic it is...

And this same drug getting such a bad rap because of MJ's death was one of the main reasons he is in that courtroom to begin with.
 
Is Paul White really the 'father' of propofol or the leading expert?

Even Flanagan doesnt think so.


“We are not going to assert at any point in this trial that Michael Jackson at any time orally ingested propofol,” said Flanagan, who revealed he had commissioned a study that concluded propofol would not be absorbed into the body when ingested.

But he did not say when the study had been done.

Prosecutors and the judge appeared stunned at the announcement

At Friday’s hearing, on a day when testimony was not heard, Deputy District Attorney David Walgren told the judge, “We are dealing with an ever-changing defense. It was just a couple of days ago they abandoned oral propofol.”

“Oh, your honor, that is not correct,” Flanagan said.

“No?’ Walgren asked incredulously.

“We abandoned oral propofol months ago,” said Flanagan, saying they were swayed by a report from the leading expert on the drug, who is expected to testify for the prosecution next week.

He said Dr. Steven Shafer had questioned “the bioavailability of oral propofol,” meaning whether it would be absorbed into the body if swallowed.

Flanagan said the defense decided to have its own study conducted and, “We determined back in May that bioavailability of oral propofol was not feasible.”

http://www.thereviewhunter.com/lawyer-for-jackson-doctor-says-key-tactic-dropped/
 
Ya know..I would think the juror would wonder..since its a NO BRAINER..why the prosecution would even address this factoid in their CIC..and even tho Defense has backtracked on that claim...I have to LOL that testimony showed clearly just why..Hummm ..Dr. White suggested it as a possibility..LOL even though he SHOULD HAVE KNOWN it was Impossible..as Dr. Shafer said..What a silly dilly thing to even say or suggest..

Course so far everything Defense is trying to suggest is fantasyland and built on lies by Conrat...Wooo Is the person who believes LIES..as they are DOOMED to be exposed!!...

BTW..Dont Def. Atny's always say..DONT LIE TO ME.. DONT have to tell me if you did it or not..BUT JUST DONT LIE to me??...:rocker: IT must be very difficult to give a good defense to someone who just isnt telling the TROOT to anybody including himself :floorlaugh:
 
I'm going to see if I can find the testimony from the witness that owned he pharmaceutical company that was selling CM all these drugs and supplies. A big deal seemed to be made by Chernoff yesterday about that invoice Dr. Shafer was quoting saying "1" vented tube. I recall a lot of the quantities on those invoices being "1" but it was "1" box not "1" single item.
 
Talina said:
I'm going to see if I can find the testimony from the witness that owned he pharmaceutical company that was selling CM all these drugs and supplies. A big deal seemed to be made by Chernoff yesterday about that invoice Dr. Shafer was quoting saying "1" vented tube. I recall a lot of the quantities on those invoices being "1" but it was "1" box not "1" single item.
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:waitasec::floorlaugh:..I can only say from experience..You just cant order on "Set" of anything..always has to be a unit value..such as box..carton..or tray of sumptin...So I have to suggest CM ordering Vented Spiked IV tubing ordered BY CM for his clinic..was a bogus item..NO WAY no How..does this guy perform anything invasive in his clinics..HIS staff consist of NON-medical personale..Not a one RN or Resgistered anything to start IV's or monitor drugs, treatments...

FYI//Vented spike IV sets are only used exclusively for specifics infusions..and its alwasy to do with any Bottle drug format (Propofol/Nitroglycerine) and MUST have Appropriate staff to doo such things..CM was such a clueless..That order to his clinic screams volumes to Shafer..as HE KNOWS that little thing..and White does too..But wont admit it.. Defense appears to be floundering right now..and have no idea just how they will ever undo what Shafer did (and other witnesses)..CM is cooked like a goose at Christmas..:floorlaugh::woohoo:
 
LyndyLoo said:
:waitasec::floorlaugh:..I can only say from experience..You just cant order on "Set" of anything..always has to be a unit value..such as box..carton..or tray of sumptin...So I have to suggest CM ordering Vented Spiked IV tubing ordered BY CM for his clinic..was a bogus item..NO WAY no How..does this guy perform anything invasive in his clinics..HIS staff consist of NON-medical personale..Not a one RN or Resgistered anything to start IV's or monitor drugs, treatments...

FYI//Vented spike IV sets are only used exclusively for specifics infusions..and its alwasy to do with any Bottle drug format (Propofol/Nitroglycerine) and MUST have Appropriate staff to doo such things..CM was such a clueless..That order to his clinic screams volumes to Shafer..as HE KNOWS that little thing..and White does too..But wont admit it.. Defense appears to be floundering right now..and have no idea just how they will ever undo what Shafer did (and other witnesses)..CM is cooked like a goose at Christmas..:floorlaugh::woohoo:
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You know, people (including me) keep saying what on earth was he thinking to not be monitoring while giving this type of sedation to MJ. I'd completely forgotten his lack of trained and certified medical personnel even in his own clinics. I'm now thinking his lack of detail and diligence with MJ was nothing new for him. That is the way he ran his clinics as well. He's darn lucky nothing awful has already happened his patients while being treated by him. He's been playing Russian Roulette for quite some time it seems to me.

IMO
 
Talina said:
You know, people (including me) keep saying what on earth was he thinking to not be monitoring while giving this type of sedation to MJ. I'd completely forgotten his lack of trained and certified medical personnel even in his own clinics. I'm now thinking his lack of detail and diligence with MJ was nothing new for him. That is he way he ran his clinics as well. He's darn lucky nothing awful has already happened to him. He's been playing Russian Roulette for quite some time it seems to me.

IMO
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He's got horseshoes up "U" "NO" Where..as it appears there was Nothing in his clinics to prepare for emergencies..and relied on OTHERS to call 911 ..and YEP I would bet he would have blamed anyone or everyone IF something happened..
He is so unprofessional and unethical I do think he doesnt even know what the definition of "Protocol" is or what it means!..Whomever passed him to give him a license should be held to answer for their passing of such an incompetent!!
Surely he didnt forget everything he learned?? Ohh wait..Maybe he didnt care & understood all the BENEIFITS of his license!!..

Im sorry this case makes me infuriated by such unethical behaviors!!:furious::furious::maddening:
 
LyndyLoo said:
He's horseshoes U N Where..as it appears therewa Nothing in his clinics to prepare for emergencies..and relied on OTHERS tocall 911 ..and YEP I would bet he would have blamed anyone or everyone IF something happened..
He is so unprofessional and unethica I do think he doesnt even know what the definition of "Protocol" is or means!..Whomever passed him to give him a license should be held to answer for their passing of such an incompetent!!
Surely he didnt forget everything he learned?? Ohh wait..Maybe he didnt care understood all the BENEIFITS of his license!!..

Im sorry this case makes me infuriated by such unethical behaviors!!:furious::furious::maddening:
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I'd love for the jury to hear testimony somehow of how his malpractice insurance carrier denied his claim for help with legal expenses for this trial since his coverage doesn't cover anesthesiology as that is not what he is licensed to do. At least that is what I understood their position to be from articles I read some time ago.

IMO
 
Talina said:
I love for the jury to hear testimony somehow of how his malpractice insurance carrier denied his claim for help with legal expenses for this trial since his coverage doesn't cover anesthesiology as that is not what he is licensed to do. At least that is what I understood their position to be from articles I read some time ago.

IMO
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BBM
Doesnt that say it all..This quack practiced things he had no privelge to do and ignored the possibilities..All he did was bloviate his knowledge and capabilities..and unfortunately 1 too many bought it!!..All those patients who worship this guy only feel that way because NOTHING happened to them and felt cared about because he held their hand, or patted them on shoulder..or spewed some sort of crap to them..Fortunately for them nothing happened..but UNFORTUNATELY CM killed MJ with his unethical attitudes about his profession...DT is truly getting an eye opener..BUT to save face..They wont admit it!!:blushing::great:
 
katydid23 said:
But this was 14 or 15 years ago. I don't think Dr Klein seemed to be unhealthy at that time. And I do not think Prince looks ANYTHING like MJ. Not one bit. And I don't take away anything from his being the true father to all 3 of his children. But he is not the bio dad, imo.
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I don't think MJ was the bio-dad of Prince or Paris, but the more I see Blanket, the more I think HE might be MJ's biological child.
 
Thanks button to all of your comments! I missed all the main testimony and you all sure filled me in. I'm looking forward to Mondy with a much better-informed view of what happened.

I am voting for Walgren on re-direct to put lie to all the nonsense by Chernoff. That's why he and his side are taking copious notes throughout the cross. Too bad Dr. Murray, among many other things, did not do the same.

One thing I hope runs through the jurors minds is the fact that CM did not have a single trained, certified person working in his clinic. If I had been a patient and learned that my post-surgical therapy was conducted by a volunteer worker, I would have sued the pants off him. This fact makes me wonder if the prosecution will make a big deal of it, considering his LV clinic was his cash cow.
 
Good morning everyone!:seeya:

I believe Chernoff's sole purpose in his crosses are to confuse the jury. At times he even appears to be confused by the questions he asked. They aren't nearly as clear and concise as Walgren does his direct/redirects.

He made a big issue that the tubing wasnt the same since the tubing was never found at the scene and I am thinking "hello, what are you thinking?" :waitasec: because that just draws more attention to the fact that it is missing. DS order the same line from the same company CM did and even matched the code of the item.

Then he makes a big deal out of DS using a 20cc syringe instead of a 10cc and to me that was insulting to the jury's intelligence. It is easy to understand that no matter how big the syringe used DS only pulled in 25 mg of propofol. He probably used a larger syringe thinking the jury could see it better. If I put a teaspoon of water in a cup or a large bowl I still only have one teaspoon of water.:floorlaugh:

The first part of the cross was bullying DS because he put Dr. White in a bad light. But it wasnt DS who said the theory of drinking propofol was a possibility. It was White. So EC tried to slam a renowned researcher/anesthesiologist for having his own opinions who happened to not agree with ECs expert.

Imo, tomorrow we will see more questions asked hoping to leave the jurors confused.

If and when this cross ever ends we will then see Walgren get back up and put the facts in evidence back in and on track again. Until then we are going to see EC on the attack not only trying to confuse the jury but DS as well.

DS is use to being asked very clear questions about things he knows or about things he is to find out and solve. Not some mixed up mumbo jumbo.

IMO
 
katydid23 said:
I would think so. I think it depends upon how White comes across next week. They have that new study they are going to bring out that shows that Pr0pofol was used SUCCESSFULLY for insomnia. That is going to hurt, imo.

And he may have some kind of data that backs up his statement. We do not know yet. But White is a pretty major authority. So he must have some reason to think he can pull this off, imo.
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What I didn't understand is EC saying a first year med student would know that because that means then someone of White's experience and knowledge would have certainly known it.

DS knew it wasnt going to harm the volunteers and himself when he did it but White should have known it too and ruled out that possibility from the get go if he is the expert the DT says he is.

Again, I don't see that helping the defense but hurting them. First it is not been accepted in the medical community. It is just one study. As we know for something to be approved many many studies must be preformed and peer reviewed by many experts before it can happen.

But also what was done in that study is counter opposing to what CM did. All the patients were in a hospital or clinical setting where appropriate measures were in place and they were constantly monitoring their vitals.

All of that is something CM didn't do.:waitasec:
 
oceanblueeyes said:
Now if you want to read something that is very very impressive just read Dr. Shafer's CV.:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

It's 36 pages long.

http://anesthksu.com/speakers_CV/shafer_cv.pdf
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One note about CV's from medical researchers, physicians and university profs, etc. -- A Curriculum Vitae -- literally "course of (one's) life" -- sometimes it is thought to be the same as a resume, but really it isn't.

A CV is literally what it says it is: education, publications (the holy grail of especially big-time universities and medical institutions -- and, among the names listed on a publication, the first name and the last name are the most important names of the pub: that's just how it is. We've all heard, "publish or perish" .... there's a lot of pressure at any institution to publish, publish, publish) -- residencies, fellowships, appointments, positions (head-this, chief-that), awards, honors, etc. So don't be put off by the length of it -- Shafer's CV is as it should be - complete and all-inclusive.

My DH is a research and data manager at Duke Univ. Med. Center , and that's how one would write a CV. Shafer's is way up there...

Just a bit of info for those unfamiliar, if there are any...
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And Good Morning to you, ocean! :wave:

Good post, thanks!

I also wanna say that I hope you and your ribs are feeling better and that you will :getwell: !

Yeppers, it's the old Baffle them with Bull**** routine which is weak, weak, weak, IMO, but it sometimes works. I'm sure some of the jurors were thinking, "What???"

And poor Shafer -- he and his colleague White do have lives after this trial -- I'm sure Shafer does not want to hurt White any more than he may have to. But he knew the situation and he decided to testify, I think, due to principles of good, sound medicine.

But Walgren will straighten it out on this re-direct and the others AND he will straighten it all out at closing. The PT will have the last word.
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And one more thang about CV's: I have read Shafer's, of course, and it was amazing but not surprising. This guy is a Physician among physicians -- very impressive.

I would love to see CM's CV. Where is it?? Any MD worth his salt has one....:dunno:
 
LyndyLoo said:
:waitasec::floorlaugh:..I can only say from experience..You just cant order on "Set" of anything..always has to be a unit value..such as box..carton..or tray of sumptin...So I have to suggest CM ordering Vented Spiked IV tubing ordered BY CM for his clinic..was a bogus item..NO WAY no How..does this guy perform anything invasive in his clinics..HIS staff consist of NON-medical personale..Not a one RN or Resgistered anything to start IV's or monitor drugs, treatments...

FYI//Vented spike IV sets are only used exclusively for specifics infusions..and its alwasy to do with any Bottle drug format (Propofol/Nitroglycerine) and MUST have Appropriate staff to doo such things..CM was such a clueless..That order to his clinic screams volumes to Shafer..as HE KNOWS that little thing..and White does too..But wont admit it.. Defense appears to be floundering right now..and have no idea just how they will ever undo what Shafer did (and other witnesses)..CM is cooked like a goose at Christmas..:floorlaugh::woohoo:
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BBM

We know that CM played it fast & loose with MJ at his home -- alone. And altho they apparently (as far as we know, at least) were not certified or registered or professionally trained assistants/volunteers at his LV office, what was to keep him from training them himself to assist him in his office? He was a practicing cardiologist with patients -- cardiologists do procedures other than ECG's -- what would stop him? Just sayin' ....:waitasec:
 
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