The Re-Ordered American Girl Doll..

Ames said:

LOL...doggone it, I guess it was just wishful thinking. Where is Superman when you need him? We could ask SuperDave, maybe he has x-ray vision.

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Well, I have been known to see through some people!

SuperDave said:

Well, I have been known to see through some people!

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LOL...good one!

I've been pondering this a lot, Ames. Supposing it was the Samantha doll reordered, then I would wonder exactly why, since she already had 2. (Patsy and Nedra had both given her one as I recall, will update links when I find them.) The reasons could be as follows:

1) JBR really really liked Samantha. (Unlikely that she would have 3, IMO.)

2) Something was damaged on the doll itself, requiring a stand-in. Either the head detached which would be fairly obvious, or a major clothing piece was damaged, again being fairly obvious.

I can understand about the tan fibers, those would be associated with the tan cotton doll torso no matter the doll (Molly or Samantha.) The duct tape theory seems plausible.

I'm having a problem with the blue fibers.

The following assumes that the dolls and accessories were manufactured in 1996 similarly to examples I found online recently.

Assuming that they are similar, Samantha would appear as follows:



I'm no expert, but I'm not seeing a viable source of blue fibers in the above.

Possible sources of blue fibers that I would guess, would be in the additional separate outfits marketed for the Samantha doll. These, of course, could be worn on any other 18 inch AG doll. Examples:


These are described as "Black Watch Cape and Gaiters Set".

A close up of the fabric (not exact outfit fabric, noting there is no greenish stripe):


Blue Velvet Dress marketed for Samantha:


It was noted by Jahazafat that there were copious blue fibers around her own personal display of the Molly doll with her original outfit. Molly comes clothed in the following outfit from AG as also mentioned by Jahazafat:



Were there additional outfits ordered with the AG replacement doll? Was the reordered AG doll in fact Samantha? Was it a Molly doll? If it was a Samantha, why would John reorder that doll, assuming it came with the white plaid dress?

I'm thinking someone only recognized the difference in the hair color of the dolls, reordered (or had someone else reorder) that doll and didn't take into consideration which outfit the doll had originally shipped with. No offense, but this seems like a very male thing to do, assuming the male had not grown up playing with dolls and not taking into account the importance of accessorizing/fashion that females would find important. A female would, IMO, have been more careful about the reorder had they understood they were covering up a crime and not simply performing a function.

nobull said:

I've been pondering this a lot, Ames. Supposing it was the Samantha doll reordered, then I would wonder exactly why, since she already had 2. (Patsy and Nedra had both given her one as I recall, will update links when I find them.) The reasons could be as follows:

1) JBR really really liked Samantha. (Unlikely that she would have 3, IMO.)

2) Something was damaged on the doll itself, requiring a stand-in. Either the head detached which would be fairly obvious, or a major clothing piece was damaged, again being fairly obvious.

I can understand about the tan fibers, those would be associated with the tan cotton doll torso no matter the doll (Molly or Samantha.) The duct tape theory seems plausible.

I'm having a problem with the blue fibers.

The following assumes that the dolls and accessories were manufactured in 1996 similarly to examples I found online recently.

Assuming that they are similar, Samantha would appear as follows:

I'm no expert, but I'm not seeing a viable source of blue fibers in the above.

Possible sources of blue fibers that I would guess, would be in the additional separate outfits marketed for the Samantha doll. These, of course, could be worn on any other 18 inch AG doll. Examples:

These are described as "Black Watch Cape and Gaiters Set".

A close up of the fabric (not exact outfit fabric, noting there is no greenish stripe):

Blue Velvet Dress marketed for Samantha:

It was noted by Jahazafat that there were copious blue fibers around her own personal display of the Molly doll with her original outfit. Molly comes clothed in the following outfit from AG as also mentioned by Jahazafat:

Were there additional outfits ordered with the AG replacement doll? Was the reordered AG doll in fact Samantha? Was it a Molly doll? If it was a Samantha, why would John reorder that doll, assuming it came with the white plaid dress?

I'm thinking someone only recognized the difference in the hair color of the dolls, reordered (or had someone else reorder) that doll and didn't take into consideration which outfit the doll had originally shipped with. No offense, but this seems like a very male thing to do, assuming the male had not grown up playing with dolls and not taking into account the importance of accessorizing/fashion that females would find important. A female would, IMO, have been more careful about the reorder had they understood they were covering up a crime and not simply performing a function.

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Being a female, I agree with the ordering of the doll and not considering it's outfit, is a very male thing to do. What is really weird, is that it was sent to JONBENET, at her father's work address. I am not 100 percent sure that it was a Samantha doll that was re-ordered. Maybe to the Ramsey's, the outfit didn't matter, just as long as they replaced the doll...in case someone noticed that it was missing. If JB already had two...and Pam took one of them during her gathering of "funeral clothes" expedition, then they would have had to replace it. Because Nedra and any other family members or friends would KNOW that JB had two of them...and if one came up missing, it would be a little suspicious. Heck, they could have taken the clothes off of the one that Pam confiscated...and put it onto the new one. IMO

Understood. OTOH, if the police knew that Pam took the doll off the premises (they made a note about it), then it would be accounted for in some fashion, yes? Which leads me to believe that there was something physically wrong which necessitated its replacement but was still unrealized by LE at the time because they hadn't had time to forensically process her doll collection. In other words, John replaced the doll expecting it to be called back into evidence, but it never was, hence he didn't need the extra to switch it out.

Just a guess.

nobull said:

Understood. OTOH, if the police knew that Pam took the doll off the premises (they made a note about it), then it would be accounted for in some fashion, yes? Which leads me to believe that there was something physically wrong which necessitated its replacement but was still unrealized by LE at the time because they hadn't had time to forensically process her doll collection. In other words, John replaced the doll expecting it to be called back into evidence, but it never was, hence he didn't need the extra to switch it out.

Just a guess.

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I totally agree. IMO...as I have said before...I believe that the tape that was over JB's mouth, which was said to have not even been sticky (Fleet even picked it up and looked at it, turning it over and over, sensing that something just wasn't quite right with it), came from that AG doll. The AG doll that Pam took wasn't taken into evidence...imo...that is the very reason that Pam carted it out of the house. It could have had sticky residue on it, from where the tape had been. And if investigators had of gotten their hands on it, before Pam...the would have probably have been able to see that the stick residue on the doll, and the tape over JB's mouth..was an exact match. IMO So, yeah, I believe that John ordered another one, just in case it was decided that they would take that doll for evidence. Then he could say.."See, this doll still has the tape in place", so the tape over JB's mouth couldn't have come from the doll.

I believe that the tape that was over JB's mouth, which was said to have not even been sticky (Fleet even picked it up and looked at it, turning it over and over, sensing that something just wasn't quite right with it) - Ames

Hey Ames.

Ya, as told by FW, that must have been quite the moment. to 're' examine the room, discover JBR's body, and then to note the useless condition of the tape ..... none of it could have made sense to FW, esp in the state of shock.

Did any of the information concerning these dolls end up in a tabloids or tabloid tv, some where? US, UK?

Was the 'American Girl Doll" issue ever a media concern?

Hard copy? Current Affair. etc.
I've wonder about who 'made it' onto these tab trash tv shows, what kind of angles did these type shows cover, interviews with 'child beauty contestants?, did any 'neighbours of the Ramseys appear on these shows ....

Are the NE, The Globe stories archived, somewhere?

In general, just wondering about atmosphere, what the media frenzy was like to watch, if y'all have any obsevations.

Gee, ..... more to reread:


at CandyRose, transcripts:
http://www.acandyrose.com/transcripts.htm

I've been reading about Jonbenet for years and the doll stuff has always fascinated me. Why is it not mentioned anywhere but online and so obscure?

The truth is always stranger than fiction.

To send something in the child's name to her dad at work does not sound like the action of a parent trying to secretly replace a doll. It sounds more like a weird version of putting a teddy bear or flowers at a crime scene. I am going with sympathetic but very odd "fan."

Then again, if the doll arrived on January 1, it was likely ordered before the murder. Maybe JR ordered it, not realizing his daughter already had two of them.

Just posting to say that that one dress for Samantha, the long blue velvet dress with the white lacy neck part, was not available when JB was alive. We have tons of AG dolls too and I'm pretty sure that dress wasn't available till sometime in the 2000s.

For blue fibers, my money's on the outfit Molly comes in. Blue sweater with red on the front and blue skirt.
We have one of each doll plus we have an extra Molly doll and an extra Samantha doll...and for the Molly outfit she comes in, both Molly sweaters and skirts shed fibers like crazy.

Patsy was questioned about white cottony looking material in the basement area. I wonder if it was stuffing from the doll. Someone could have torn up JonBenet's doll in anger or playing with it. . Another thing, there has never been any mention of any real little girl's toys in the house. Did JonBenet have any toys she could actually play with? There wasn't much in her room and the pic of the playroom looked void of big fun girl's toys.

Sophie said:

Ty Tadpole. You know, what burns about this is Hunter making such an effort to identify the provenance of the bear. While this was the right thing to do, had he shown anywhere near this vigour in terms of executing search warrants in the early days of the investigation, we may have had closure on the case. I know I am really boring on this topic but Hunter ranted on about how he believed with every fibre of his being in the presumption of innocence while ST didn't but I honestly believe that a prosecutor is displaying a presumption of guilt if s/he doesn't issue the appropriate warrants since s/he should really presume that the suspect's innocence will be proven by the warrants. (Rant over - with apologies).

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IMO Hunter was just looking for any kind of distraction at all to make it appear he was actively seeking justice in this murder case while not even seriously looking at the parents. He did the same thing when that woman from California surfaced with her claims. Hunter's primary motive was not justice for JB but making safe political career moves for AH. He only pretended to be prosecuting the case.

txsvicki said:

Patsy was questioned about white cottony looking material in the basement area. I wonder if it was stuffing from the doll. Someone could have torn up JonBenet's doll in anger or playing with it. . Another thing, there has never been any mention of any real little girl's toys in the house. Did JonBenet have any toys she could actually play with? There wasn't much in her room and the pic of the playroom looked void of big fun girl's toys.

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If you pop the dolls head off they're full of white cotton , and it just so happens that the Molly dolls tend to be overstuffed. To the point where the clothes are tight.
Actually I don't know if this is still a problem today or not...I was given my Molly doll in 1994 and she was overstuffed and her clothes barely fit, but I didn't know any better....as years went on I knew other people with Molly and other dolls and found that all the Molly's seemed to be overstuffed but the other characters didn't.

I left mine as is, but, when my daughter received a Molly doll, I loosened the cord around the doll's neck and popped the head off in an attempt to remove the extra stuffing because I wanted to avoid having to send the doll back for a replacement.
I failed miserably lol, I couldn't get the dolls head back on no matter what I did so I had to just replace her doll with my own and hope she didn't notice...she never did.

sgrump said:

I've been reading about Jonbenet for years and the doll stuff has always fascinated me. Why is it not mentioned anywhere but online and so obscure?

The truth is always stranger than fiction.

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sgrump,
BBM, probably because its relevance appears so tenuous? Yet even I struggle to link JR's bonus with a doll delivered to Access Graphics. Yet I assume this is what was its purpose: part of the R's plan to explain JonBenet's death with some link to JR's work, with the doll a supporting evidence?

Some things in this case make you double take, JoneBent's size'12's are one example another is the doll delivered to JR's workplace, what?


.

Can someone explain this clip-on earring with regard to the bear?

&

Pam took a golf bag from the house?

Mama2JML said:

Can someone explain this clip-on earring with regard to the bear?

&

Pam took a golf bag from the house?

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I'll try. JB was in a Christmas pageant where she received a Santa Bear. There is a photo of this bear sitting on the spare twin bed in JB's room. There is an earring clipped to the black belt of the Santa outfit on the bear. The matching earring to the pair was found on the street in front of the R house. My theory on this is that JB wore those gold clip earrings to the Pageant- she nearly always wore larger "adult" earrings to a pageant. They probably hurt her earlobes- those clip warring always do. I envision her removing them after the pageant and she or someone with her clipped them to the belt of the bear for safekeeping. On the way into the house one of the earrings fell off unnoticed. I do not think the earrings had anything to do with the crime- it was just something that occurred before it and there is nothing suspicious about it, IMO.
Later, Patsy was questioned about the bear and tried to deny it was JB's. It was traced through the manufacturer to bears bought by the pageant directors and given out at that Christmas pageant. The pageant directors identified the bear as one that would have been given to JB. Later it came out that Patsy was not at that particular event with JB, having gone on the second of her two trips to NYC. Nedra and Don Paugh, Patsy's parents, babysat JB and BR and took JB to that event. I believe it may have been Colorado's Little Miss Christmas, which JB won.

Mama2JML said:

Can someone explain this clip-on earring with regard to the bear?

&

Pam took a golf bag from the house?

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I'll try. JB was in a Christmas pageant where she received a Santa Bear. There is a photo of this bear sitting on the spare twin bed in JB's room. There is an earring clipped to the black belt of the Santa outfit on the bear. The matching earring to the pair was found on the street in front of the R house. My theory on this is that JB wore those gold clip earrings to the Pageant- she nearly always wore larger "adult" earrings to a pageant. They probably hurt her earlobes- those clip earrings always do. I envision her removing them after the pageant and she or someone with her clipped them to the belt of the bear for safekeeping. On the way into the house one of the earrings fell off unnoticed. I do not think the earrings had anything to do with the crime- it was just something that occurred before it and there is nothing suspicious about it, IMO.
Later, Patsy was questioned about the bear and tried to deny it was JB's. It was traced through the manufacturer to bears bought by the pageant directors and given out at that Christmas pageant. The pageant directors identified the bear as one that would have been given to JB. Later it came out that Patsy was not at that particular event with JB, having gone on the second of her two trips to NYC. Nedra and Don Paugh, Patsy's parents, babysat JB and BR and took JB to that event. I believe it may have been Colorado's Little Miss Christmas, which JB won.
There is a photo of a sad-looking JB in tiara and red cape sitting in a car on a float in a Christmas parade. I think this may be from the same event?

DeeDee249 said:

I'll try. JB was in a Christmas pageant where she received a Santa Bear. There is a photo of this bear sitting on the spare twin bed in JB's room. There is an earring clipped to the black belt of the Santa outfit on the bear. The matching earring to the pair was found on the street in front of the R house. My theory on this is that JB wore those gold clip earrings to the Pageant- she nearly always wore larger "adult" earrings to a pageant. They probably hurt her earlobes- those clip earrings always do. I envision her removing them after the pageant and she or someone with her clipped them to the belt of the bear for safekeeping. On the way into the house one of the earrings fell off unnoticed. I do not think the earrings had anything to do with the crime- it was just something that occurred before it and there is nothing suspicious about it, IMO.
Later, Patsy was questioned about the bear and tried to deny it was JB's. It was traced through the manufacturer to bears bought by the pageant directors and given out at that Christmas pageant. The pageant directors identified the bear as one that would have been given to JB. Later it came out that Patsy was not at that particular event with JB, having gone on the second of her two trips to NYC. Nedra and Don Paugh, Patsy's parents, babysat JB and BR and took JB to that event. I believe it may have been Colorado's Little Miss Christmas, which JB won.
There is a photo of a sad-looking JB in tiara and red cape sitting in a car on a float in a Christmas parade. I think this may be from the same event?

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Thanks, DeeDee. I always thought the gold clip held the pouch on Santa's belt. Your earring theory seems plausible, though.