2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner

ITA.

I checked the script. The body in the trunk in that movie was in a plastic bag, so KC might not have been tipped off to the fact that Caylee's body would leave a stain. But she should have been tipped off to the fact that there would be a horrible smell after a couple of days, based on the description of how the character who finds the body reacts.

It doesn't surprise me considering she went through the next 31 days (and now) as if nothing literally happened. She drove around as if she didn't have her dead daughter in the trunk. She wasn't too bothered with the smell when hanging out in the garage on the 15th either. It was as if none of it happened.

It's eerie because she's like a robot (listen to Rob D's interview). There is something completely off about her, hence the reason Terry L wanted to pursue the mental illness route in her defense. There is something seriously wrong with her.
 
I'm bouncing back & forth between this thread, All About Chloroform (which sounds like a horrible macabre Jeopardy category), and the pool/drowning/ladder one, and thought of this:

We have VFAs in the trunk liner.
Source: decomp event.​
We have higher than expected quanitites of chloroform in the trunk.
Source: unknown.​
We have decomp hits by cadaver dogs in the back yard.
Source: cadaver or item that had been in touch with cadaver, either shovel or blanket or both?​

Hypothesis: The blanket was used to smother Caylee, with possibly a corner of it having been soaked in choloroform first (high chloroform content in samples); blanket was then used to cover/wrap her for some time in the trunk (VFAs causing trunk stains we have been analyzing); then used as a sling or hammock to transport her to backyard for attempted burial. Seeing that burial would be impossible (or at least hard work), KC maneuvers Caylee into the garbage bag & that into the laundry bag. She then soaks the blanket in the pool to clean it off, and stuffs it back in the top of the laundry bag, covering the garbage bag and looking to a casual observer like a bag with laundry in it. The blanket was found away from the remains and this would also explain how that happened, whereas if it had been wrapped around her it would have been more entangled in the remains.

Thoughts?

Excellent hypothosis! ITA this would explain quite a bit of the missing pieces that we know somehow fit together. The blanket would make a perfect sling, thus lessening the amount of touching kc would have to do to get her body into the bags. Soaking the blanket would probably stave off bugs for a few days, as well as cover things up to the casual observer. I think you may have hit on something here! You keep on feeling things out and get our neurons firing again! Woo Hoo!:dance:
 
I can't remember seeing any of the pics of the bags @ the dump site being released, anyone else? I know they took pics of the bags before touching them and clearly they would show how the bag laid in the woods for all those months. The stain in the trunk along with the bag will probably be a very powerful statement to the jury.

respectfully quoted and bbm

I don't know how the jury will sit through all the gruesome testimony and accompanying photographic evidence. I have a hard enough time reading about it all. It's just too sad. Poor Caylee :(
 
I'm bouncing back & forth between this thread, All About Chloroform (which sounds like a horrible macabre Jeopardy category), and the pool/drowning/ladder one, and thought of this:

We have VFAs in the trunk liner.
Source: decomp event.​
We have higher than expected quanitites of chloroform in the trunk.
Source: unknown.​
We have decomp hits by cadaver dogs in the back yard.
Source: cadaver or item that had been in touch with cadaver, either shovel or blanket or both?​

Hypothesis: The blanket was used to smother Caylee, with possibly a corner of it having been soaked in choloroform first (high chloroform content in samples); blanket was then used to cover/wrap her for some time in the trunk (VFAs causing trunk stains we have been analyzing); then used as a sling or hammock to transport her to backyard for attempted burial. Seeing that burial would be impossible (or at least hard work), KC maneuvers Caylee into the garbage bag & that into the laundry bag. She then soaks the blanket in the pool to clean it off, and stuffs it back in the top of the laundry bag, covering the garbage bag and looking to a casual observer like a bag with laundry in it. The blanket was found away from the remains and this would also explain how that happened, whereas if it had been wrapped around her it would have been more entangled in the remains.

Thoughts?

Sounds like it is a good possibility. I think KC may have used the pool water to wash something off. That she may have put Caylee in the playhouse to keep her hidden in case someone came into the yard. After putting her back in the trunk she may have used the pool water to wash off some of the pavers. Maybe that is why the dogs hit in that area.

I DO NOT think Caylee drowned or else KC would not have made the statement in the jail house video when CA mentioned that some people were saying that Caylee may have drowned in the pool. KC's sarcastic response, "Surprise, surprise." Not the type of reaction you would expect from a mother whose child could have accidentially drowned in the pool. JMO
 
Going out on a limb here. Have never posted an image or edited an image. Holding breath and fingers crossed.... if this comes through I would appreciate feedback, though please stick to the facts and hold your constructive criticism on the quality of my artwork for sometime when my ego is not so fragile?

Hoping this does not blow anyone's margins:
 

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Going out on a limb here. Have never posted an image or edited an image. Holding breath and fingers crossed.... if this comes through I would appreciate feedback, though please stick to the facts and hold your constructive criticism on the quality of my artwork for sometime when my ego is not so fragile?

Hoping this does not blow anyone's margins:

You Go yndi! You have a lot more "guts" than I do re:techy artwork on editing images! I think you did a fabulous job!
It could be that her head is then is bent forward (upper right from your outline). You could make out where the creases would fold the bag just behind her neck. That makes a lot more since the bag is 24" tall, and it would even allow for something to be placed on top of her (a blanket perhaps?) to conceal the child's body bags.

ps: my mind has been "marginally blown" but the picture came across perfectly, imo!
 
Here are two images that, to me, "go together".....


http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq110/skygirl31/28-1.jpg



The photo of the stain, and the laundy bag really share the same "look" IMO. :(

Going out on a limb here. Have never posted an image or edited an image. Holding breath and fingers crossed.... if this comes through I would appreciate feedback, though please stick to the facts and hold your constructive criticism on the quality of my artwork for sometime when my ego is not so fragile?

Hoping this does not blow anyone's margins:


Ynot, I appreciate the efforts of everyone who has tried to make sense of the trunk and bag photos. :blowkiss: Quality of the artwork is of no importance as long as you get your point across lol.

IMHO, I think the placement of Caylee in the bag matches up with the trunk stain as shown in skygirl's post above (using BJB's theory, with the knee being placed over the hole in the spare tire cover). Does anyone know how to overlap those 2 photos?
 
Ynot, I appreciate the efforts of everyone who has tried to make sense of the trunk and bag photos. :blowkiss: Quality of the artwork is of no importance as long as you get your point across lol.

IMHO, I think the placement of Caylee in the bag matches up with the trunk stain as shown in skygirl's post above (using BJB's theory, with the knee being placed over the hole in the spare tire cover). Does anyone know how to overlap those 2 photos?

Thank you AZ for being generally awesome and supportive in this instance.

I have wanted a couple of overlays related to this thread but I have no access to PhotoShop and no skills therewith. Therefore:

Dear Overlay Fairies--or Wizards, if you prefer?

Please bring me and AZ our overlay wishes: AZ's stated above; mine being a comparison of the red stain on the outside of the white towyard trashbag with the stain images we have seen from inside the trunk (front or back of wheel well cover/trunk liner).

If you do, we will be very good WSers and never post off topic... We will never leave cookies on your computers and we will always thank your posts unless we really really think they are silly, and maybe even then.

Please? We have been exceptionally well-behaved all year. Well, AZ has at least. I'm sure of that. Pretty sure of that. Anyway.

PLEASE? Thank you,

Ynot
 
Oh but it's not her mess. It's Cindy's mess. Mommy made her do it. She was facing the nightmare of what her mother made her do, not her own mess. This is someone that will NEVER take any sort of responsibility for what happened to Caylee. More likely, she's pissed she had to dispose of Caylee after killing her! The least Cindy could have done was clean up that mess for her, in her mind. How dare her mom make her have to deal with messy decomp!

And I've had a thought about the car seat in relation to the trunk liner. Maybe after killing Caylee in the house, she had to put her down to clear out a spot in the trunk before putting her in it? Maybe her instinct was just to put her in the car seat like always, and then put her in the trunk after she cleared out a space? I don't know if those stains have ever been identified, but I can see her doing this. As messy as her trunk probably was, she probably had to clear out a space first before putting Caylee there. And then she covered her with a blanket and let her rot there until the smell became too much. God, that poor, poor baby...

Respectfully Quoted Aedrys :)
BBM

First, thank you to everyone who has worked on this interesting and enlightening thread. Understatement of the century: I am sorry this happened to Caylee.

I wonder if this is why George changed his story re: being the one to put Caylee in her car seat June 16th?

...JS...
 
Hi EU :)

The ankle area up, of the calf would be least visible because of the way the muscle grows on the bone that is slightly bowed. The meatiest part is on the side of the calf slightly below the knee and the foot which also sticks out more than that bony ankle area would.
http://online.academyart.edu/spotlight_class/FSH_114/module_02/session_16.html

The rump is pretty fatty, as well as the tummy and the bottoms of her feet.
http://www.nycfootcare.com/footpad_augmentation_nyc.htm
I am not an expert, but that is what I am gathering from the latest doc dump images everyone has done such an amazing job with :twocents:
The formation of adipocere?

In my opinion, the woman from the FBI worded the email poorly and the legs are to be implied.

Remember too this was visualized off a photo they had received IIRC, they requested the liner etc after someone thought they saw an image very early on. Maybe they had a preliminary report of what the the stain was composed of - so they were looking for an outline in the stain to add another piece of evidence to a scary case with no body at the time. If by some miracle they could put a picture of Caylee in that car they were going to do it.

Like the kitten, the book and goodness knows what was originally seen at the crime scene that really was just leaves and an old advertisement.

Just because she thought she saw the leg, etc doesn't mean it wasn't a hip. KWIM?
 
Poor Caylee. :(

ITA. I can't even read through this thread without feeling sick to my stomach. That poor baby!

M-C, OLG, I know the feeling. Have to keep telling myself that this is Caylee's only way of leading us to the truth and thereby to justice for her.

Not the religious sort myself but as it says in Luke 8:17: "For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad."

Good works are not always pleasant works. But they are worthy endeavors.
 
I think you're seeing it the same way I'm seeing it, but I really would need an overlay of the trunk stain over the laundry bag (or the other way around) to be sure. We know the bag is 24 inches high, and the trunk photo shows the ruler next to the stain, so at least there's some rough scale to work with if anyone has the PhotoShop skills.

An exercise I have wanted to do, but, find myself lacking the opportunity I'll spell out in case someone else would like to give it a go.

You can do this the old-fashioned way...or digitally if you have a software you like to use.

JWG's composite provides the ruler next to the image. That gives us a, "rosetta stone" of sorts, because we can use that ruler to determine the scale of the image.

Here's the old-fashioned way in case someone wants to print it out and give it a try. Digital will be self-explanatory from this....

1) Print out the composite image and pick the position you want to use (JWG's , mine, or another)
2) Measure with a ruler the length of 1 foot on the image of the ruler that is in the picture. The result will be a few inches. Let's say it is 3 inches.
3) From this we can translate that 3 inches measured on the image is equal to a foot and also divide by 12 to determine how long an inch is on the image.
4) Measure the following segments (I'll use my view)
4a) From the sole of the foot to the knee
4b) From the knee to the hip
4c) From the hip to the shoulders
5) Add 4a + 4b + 4c
6) Convert the dimension to feet using the conversion from (2) above.
7) Compare the result to Caylee's expected height to see if we're in the ballpark
Note: In my view you would have to come up with an assumption of the length from the center of the shoulders to the top of the head. Not too hard to do ...could even be done from an image of Caylee.
8) You can also do a reality-check by comparing the ratios of these measurements to the ratios of a recent picture of Caylee (e.g. 4a/4b from the image vs. 4a/4b from a recent picture of Caylee should be roughly the same.)

If these dimensions are far off the mark...well...it tells us we're just seein' things. ;)

Same process could be done w/ the laundry bag if it, as AZ says, is truly 24" in length.

HTH. Hope someone has the time to give this a shot.
 
wenwe, way to dive into a new skill set! I totally see what you and quadlatte are envisioning, and we are in basic agreement about her orientation inside the bag. Totally agree that the bag photo we are working with shows the back side and think she was feet first into bags.

And related but technically OT: I know the dispersion of remains causes some questions--such as how can her torso end up so far away when her skull was still with the bags? But there are two considerations here:

1. The neck is one of the more tenuous of the body's connections. Not a lot of muscle or fat to have to break down there. See the abstract here for a general idea of the progression of decomposition & disarticulation of the body in aqueous environments. I found several abstracts on human decomp/disarticulation on land by googling "disarticulation and decomposition human remains" but most of the full articles cost a fee.

2. Initially the most attractive part of the cadaver to scavengers would likely be the central region containing the major organs. If the neck decomposed early, then even small scavengers would be able to tug at the remains enough that the torso, arms and legs would be able to be moved away without unduly disturbing the skull. Also, small scavengers could easily enter these bags at the top without having to chew through them. If such activity did occur, it would have hastened the disarticulation process inside the bags, so that later scavengers could more easily remove torso or limbs.

MOO!

The skull weighs quite a lot... In an adult it will weigh 10-12lbs, in a child of her age probably 4-5lbs, enough for it to settle in one position.
 
Understand how the disarticulation is of interest when discussing the stain on the trunk liner, but, please try to stay on-topic to the stain in the trunk.

There is already discussion of the movement of the remains as the result of rising/falling water levels, scavengers, etc. in the Crime Scene thread (#3 IIRC). Please carry on discussion of movement of the remains :( there.

TIA! :)
 
According to this drawing website http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.idrawdigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/prop2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.idrawdigital.com/tag/proportions/&h=814&w=746&sz=179&tbnid=7Y_q9v9EZgSfOM:&tbnh=144&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dchild%2Bbody%2Bproportions&hl=en&usg=__lXOEJGL0A1D7fNWr4Uj5n5w_Z4g=&ei=R1q1S8_lII--NsjbtaEG&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=5&ct=image&ved=0CBEQ9QEwBA, a 3-year old should be about 5 "heads" tall, with the divisions shown in the photo. In Caylee's case (36 inches tall, IIRC), each "head" would be about 7.2 inches.

My rough initial estimates indicate that BJB's suggested placement of Caylee in the trunk would work with these proportions. But my husband wants to go to dinner now, so... :)
 
According to this drawing website http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.idrawdigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/prop2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.idrawdigital.com/tag/proportions/&h=814&w=746&sz=179&tbnid=7Y_q9v9EZgSfOM:&tbnh=144&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dchild%2Bbody%2Bproportions&hl=en&usg=__lXOEJGL0A1D7fNWr4Uj5n5w_Z4g=&ei=R1q1S8_lII--NsjbtaEG&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=5&ct=image&ved=0CBEQ9QEwBA, a 3-year old should be about 5 "heads" tall, with the divisions shown in the photo. In Caylee's case (36 inches tall, IIRC), each "head" would be about 7.2 inches.

My rough initial estimates indicate that BJB's suggested placement of Caylee in the trunk would work with these proportions. But my husband wants to go to dinner now, so... :)

Great find AZ! Guess your husband can't be persuaded to let you take your laptop along to dinner huh? We will sleuth along in your absence, and please enjoy a well-deserved night out with the spouse!
 
With all of the pictures we have seen of the inside of the trunk of the car, has anyone ever seen that tire wedge that George said he kept screwed down inside the trunk?

I have looked for it and can't even find a suspicious screw hole that it might have screwed in to. Seems like we should have found some trace of it, doesn't it? Did George just make this up to try to "sell" a story?
 
Sounds like it is a good possibility. I think KC may have used the pool water to wash something off. That she may have put Caylee in the playhouse to keep her hidden in case someone came into the yard. After putting her back in the trunk she may have used the pool water to wash off some of the pavers. Maybe that is why the dogs hit in that area.

I DO NOT think Caylee drowned or else KC would not have made the statement in the jail house video when CA mentioned that some people were saying that Caylee may have drowned in the pool. KC's sarcastic response, "Surprise, surprise." Not the type of reaction you would expect from a mother whose child could have accidentially drowned in the pool. JMO

I think the key is "Accidentally drowned." It becomes a little more interesting if we presume a homicidal drowning.
 

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