CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #2

Canadian4 said:

I see Ms Gleaves murder has slipped to the second page. I really would like her killer caught.
This is probably not related but there are similarities. Elderly person living alone, stabbed and killed on a holiday.

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Surprising followup to that story...
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2011/09/16/18696241.html
HAMILTON, Ont. - Neighbours say George Washington Burnett was a "man of God" who sat on his porch watching the world go by.

But the man who was buried Friday after he was found murdered Sept. 6 in his Stirton Ave. home with a knife in his neck, was also a convicted child molester who was sentenced to three years jail in 1993.

Court documents show on May 10, 1993, he pleaded guilty to charges of incest and sexual assault involving two children under 14 and a woman. The incidents occurred between 1975 and 1977

New Article! pics too!
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/595858--who-was-audrey-gleave
Who Was Audrey Gleave?

"PART ONE - OVERKILL: Jon Wells tells the story of the woman who died the way she always feared she would in this first of four part series.

By Jon Wells

The Hamilton Spectator


Even in daylight the house seems hidden, set well back from the country road called Indian Trail, the property cloistered among tall trees and next to a small cemetery.

Her home sits on the outskirts of the hamlet of Lynden, between Ancaster and Brantford, the nearest gas station 15 kilometres away.

It is a long drive down the laneway, between two murky ponds. In the late day sun, it is dead silent but for rustling leaves and the buzz of insects. Flies swarm aggressively, as though protecting their territory"







"She hadn’t used the library much, though. She still enjoyed her books, but spent most of her time in front of one of two big flat-screen TVs or her computer.

Audrey was 73, a retired high school teacher and, many years ago, a master’s student in nuclear physics at McMaster University.

She had always kept details of her past hidden, even from those close to her. For years she met for coffee every Wednesday with retired teacher friends from Westdale Secondary School. They had no idea that Audrey had herself attended Westdale".

From above link
"Audrey always shared jokes, articles and videos by email. But this one was different. It was a concert rendition of a spiritual hymn. She was not a religious person, though, and never forwarded songs".




"He spoke of a vicious stabbing but did not talk about other weapons — at least one other had been used — or the nature of the “sexual component” (it had included a perverse act that went beyond a conventional assault; the killer had taken something from the victim as though making off with a souvenir.)"


Sorry to cram in another post, but wow! With all due respect to AG, after reading about earlier marriages at a young age-I really had to wonder if perhaps adoption might play a role somehow...

"Audrey confirmed two previous marriages, but would tell Allan little about them. Allan never asked her much about it. He knew better than to try, she was too private.

She did not tell him she had been just 16 when she first married. That one had not lasted long. The second, in her 20s, was to Larry Blake, who worked at Stelco. They lived on Fairleigh Avenue South."

Really great articles, I can't wait to see the next part. From the articles a few things I found interesting:
Audrey always thought she would be raped and murdered. The profile of the killer someone younger who lives nearby. And this: LE talking about the murder...

He spoke of a vicious stabbing but did not talk about other weapons — at least one other had been used — or the nature of the “sexual component” (it had included a perverse act that went beyond a conventional assault; the killer had taken something from the victim as though making off with a souvenir.)

The "as though making off with a souvenir" makes me wonder if a body part had been taken.

Quoted from dotr:

I really had to wonder if perhaps adoption might play a role somehow...


It's strange you'd mention this just now - a long while back I was thinking that adoption might have been involved somehow as well!

And now this "sexual component" seems all the more bizarre.

You know guys - I've also considered that perhaps AG had female lovers. Or, perhaps even student lovers? I'm not speaking ill of Audrey; rather I'm really trying to come to grips with this whole thing. Audrey was human and as a human she would have had human desires and also human flaws (reference to the student lover).

ETA: This really hit me from the FBI profile:

“(The killer) has knowledge that an elderly female lives there by herself,” said Mark Safarik, a retired FBI profiler with expertise in violent crime against the elderly.

Safarik said those who kill the elderly “are not opportunistic offenders. They are not breaking into a place and stumbling upon the victim. He knows she’s there, know she’s by herself, and he goes there with intent to sexually assault and murder her. This is different than prior research suggesting women were opportunistic victims of non-violent offenders who become violent at the scene.”

These are angry young men with pent-up rage toward women and likely live with a female authority figure, he said. They are socially incompetent men who perceive little control in their lives, are typically undereducated, have substance abuse problems and are unemployed or in a menial job.

“For these guys, there is not a lot of planning, and they don’t stay at the scene long. They leave evidence, don’t clean up. They don’t think that far ahead.”

They use far more violence than necessary to kill. Overkill is indicative of their anger. This had been the case on Indian Trail.

Whoa--Just came upon this. Let me read and digest. And please, please remove the thought of my sweet Dad from the post about Mr. Burnett. That case is interesting as it closely follows another thread we have, concerning the axe murder of Matteo Patrick Giovanditto of Celebration, FL. last Thanksgiving. Mr. Giovanditto is thought to have been an abuser and we even have on board the mother of a prior victim. Lots of similarities there.

Be back later after these articles have been thoroughly gone over. Thank you to a friend for alerting me to the updates!!

Very good article and so well written! In the comments section someone mentions Jon Wells writes books, and recommends "Vanished" and "Post-Mortem" as excellent reads. (in case someone is interested)

Some of the info we already knew about, but it is so well put together in the article. Other info is new to us.

colette said:

The "as though making off with a souvenir" makes me wonder if a body part had been taken.

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I had that thought a long time ago, and reading this article today kinda corroborates my suspicions, though I noticed some emphasis on her 'rings' ... will need to re-read the article again and see if I still get the same feeling.

One thing that caught my attention was that "Audrey" was not her real/original name. I cannot blame her for liking Audrey over Otte though.

She worked two summers for Atomic Energy of Canada at the nuclear laboratories in Chalk River, 180 kilometres west of Ottawa.
A densely academic article published in 1967 lists “A. Doveika” as one of the authors. The title: Compendium of Thermal Neutron Capture Ray Measurements.

So it was Audrey and not her father (Anthony) who co-authored that article, like we have thought, and it was her who worked at Chalk River! (*thinking of Lachlan*)

I had also thought like some of you that her sexuality sounded a bit ambiguous, but now that we found out she was married three times, am thinking we might have been barking the wrong tree. Sad to learn that she indeed wanted to have children and sad to learn she was left for a younger woman

There are more new things to comment about, but will leave that for others ... the more I read and learn about Audrey, the more I like her.

OK, read it. At first blush, it's shocking just how much we got "right". There is this discordance, disconnect with the "different Audreys". When I read the frequent quote, "That's so Audrey", I always think to myself, which one?

I'm struck by the fact that she was a local girl and lied about it. How could that have escaped so many other local people. Did absolutely no classmates of hers still live in the area. She specifically told people that she was born in Eastern Europe, IIRC, and that her mother disappeared. Compare that with her living and working very close to her parents for years. Possibly, her mother "disappeared" from her life as she wished her gone. Possibly, the mother forced an adoption on the young woman and there was resentment ever after.

Another odd possibility is that maybe Audrey was not really Audrey as a local student. Maybe she was a male. The given name, Otte, is used for both girls and boys. Could the sexual component of her murder be connected to the fact that Audrey was not truly female but had presented herself as such for decades?

The prohibition of using her name is very strange. What was she afraid of? Her third husband learned of her given name but it seems that he never discussed it with her. What name was on the marriage license? Did she officially change her name from Otte to Audrey? And what of these two earlier marriages? One was at age 16 so it's nigh impossible that it was to a younger person. For a promising student to marry at that age, one expects to see an unplanned pregnancy. Who are these men?

I have to agree with N_S_U; I've always felt that there was a strong possibility of an inappropriate sexual connection to a student. Audrey didn't seem to follow conventions (that's why I've always suspected she might have been on the spectrum). I think she felt most comfortable with folks, especially men, who were bright, regardless of their age. After all, she allowed PK to get fairly close when she wouldn't allow a female neighbor in the house. She didn't even allow LVG, her best friend in.

I think we're looking for someone younger than her from her past. Someone with whom she had sexual contact with. I've still not totally discounted the occult angle but the two theories could actually be intertwined.

We posted at the same time, Hazel. Yes, could that body part have been a penis?

Missizzy said:

We posted at the same time, Hazel. Yes, could that body part have been a penis?

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What?!?!? Oh, no Missizzy! I was thinking more of a finger ... thinking the perp wanted to take her ring, and couldn't get it out. My original thought had been there had been mutilation, perhaps breasts? Never in a million years I thought she would have a penis!!!!!!
She was married three times, I would imagine someone would have noticed LOL

She could have been born with androgynous genitalia. I might be way off base but I keep coming back to a sexual body part being removed as a "trophy". I don't think the Police Chief would have blanched as he did if a finger had been removed. JMO.

The marriages could have been shams. It surely seems that the 3rd one to AG was. Her first two husbands might have also been "unique".

OK guys, I know I said I was going to leave new info for others to comment, but I just can't help myself for commenting on this ,,, is it just me, or something doesn't make sense?

For years she met for coffee every Wednesday with retired teacher friends from Westdale Secondary School.
They had no idea that Audrey had herself attended Westdale.

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(Respectfully cropping and just posting excerpts)
On Monday, Dec. 27, 2010....She sent an email to Phil...she sent the same message later that day to Linda, a neighbour across the street....Later, she sent a new email, to Phil:
Monday, Dec. 27, 2010, 10:46 a.m.
By Sunday the weakness was disappearing but still there. And would you believe that this morning I got a secondary infection; runny nose, runny eyes, sneezing. But at least I don’t feel weak so don’t think I’ve a fever. I’m just annoyed with it. Hope it gets better because I intend to have coffee Wed. come hell or high water. I’ve got cabin fever. Lynne is coming over with soup in a few minutes.

Bary

Notice the time stamp: 10:46 a.m. (so was this the second e-mail she sent ONLY to Phil?) ...in a few minutes. ... so Lynne was expected before noon and not in the evening like we have been told before?

And when did Audrey change her mind and decided to cancel the Wednesday coffee meet? In this e-mail she says she intends to have coffee Wed. come hell or high water. She also says she has 'cabin fever' .... didn't she go to Brandford the day before (Sunday)?

As an aside, and am not claiming to be a doctor, but it seems to me Audrey didn't have a cold...sounds more like an allergic reaction, based mostly on the 'runny eyes' just my humble non-professional opinion

Missizzy said:

I'm struck by the fact that she was a local girl and lied about it. How could that have escaped so many other local people. Did absolutely no classmates of hers still live in the area. She specifically told people that she was born in Eastern Europe, IIRC, and that her mother disappeared. Compare that with her living and working very close to her parents for years. Possibly, her mother "disappeared" from her life as she wished her gone. Possibly, the mother forced an adoption on the young woman and there was resentment ever after.

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respectfully snipped by me

Agree, I also remember reading she was born in Eastern Europe and moved to Canada as a child. First time also that we learn her parents didn't come to Canada as a married couple with a child, but met here. Did her parents have other relatives in Canada or did they both move to Canada by themselves?

Good point Missizzy as for the reason of Audrey not getting along with her mother! I imagine they would have been very attached and have a very loving and close relationship, being they didn't have family in Canada.

Another reason for the resentment could have been a forced abortion, if things didn't go well, perhaps that could be a reason she couldn't have children? Just thinking out loud here, thinking of another possibility. Could be totally off the mark. So odd that she was so private about those early years, as if she was trying to separate herself from her past.

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/595858--who-was-audrey-gleave
Allan’s mother, Marjorie, who is 95 and lives in a Hamilton nursing home, lamented the end of the marriage.

“Men don’t like women who are smarter than they are.”

Allan left Audrey but, on occasion, dropped by Indian Trail to help with things. She started referring to him in conversation as Fartface, a nickname that would have resonated with Maxine, the crusty cartoon character she came to admire.

Allan moved 400 kilometres away with the woman he had met in karate class and would marry. He settled up north, taking a chemical engineering job for a paper company in Sturgeon Falls. He never had kids and retired in 2001.

In the divorce settlement, Allan signed the house over to Audrey. The house was important to both of them, he didn’t want anyone else to live there.

“I’ll never sell it,” she told him.

Audrey remained on Indian Trail, alone.

Allan made trips back to Hamilton each year to visit his parents

Missizzy said:

She could have been born with androgynous genitalia. I might be way off base but I keep coming back to a sexual body part being removed as a "trophy". I don't think the Police Chief would have blanched as he did if a finger had been removed. JMO.

The marriages could have been shams. It surely seems that the 3rd one to AG was. Her first two husbands might have also been "unique".

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Perhaps a sort of female "circumcision" would be considered "payback", for being intellectually "castrated".

Thanks to Jon Wells at the Hamilton Spectator for this new information! A very interesting article,and more to come.

I loved the photo of Audrey as a young woman, in her striped dress, assembling a TV. I can see how some had said she was 'hot', considering that she was a physics teacher. (But see the comments to the article, where one of her former students said she had become matronly by the time he had her as a teacher.)

Audrey certainly was a mystery. Such a private person.

Regarding the email sent to PK, she mentions having cabin fever. That might have been her way of justifying to PK that she had told him that she was too sick to see him around Christmas, and had deferred their get-together until the Thursday. She might not have wanted to admit to PK that she had been to LV's place on Boxing Day.

It's also interesting that AG said she was going to go to her Wednesday coffee group meeting, yet on the very same day she told the group that she wasn't going to attend. I always wondered why she told the group so far ahead. I wondered how she would know for certain that she wouldn't be well enough to attend.

Has anyone ever seen mention of the assumed time of death? could it have been on the Monday?

I can't wait to read the rest of the series. The jounalist has come up with some interesting new information already.

I don't believe they've ever released a time of death.

After having slept on all of this info, I've come to the following conclusions (which are not necessarily correct):

- the killer knew Audrey and her dogs (that's why the dogs didn't raise a fuss)
- the killer resented Audrey's superior intelligence (he also might be very intelligent but not up to Audrey's level)
- the killer used a knife and perhaps an axe to kill and mutilate her
- the sexual component was either mutilation and/or shoving the knife-end (or axe end) into the vagina
- the media is working with LE in order to draw the killer out (ie. having the killer respond to a detail about him which might not be correct)

Those are my thoughts now........ :twocents:

ETA: After re-reading the article yet again, this struck me:

More unusual was Audrey’s insistence that anyone emailing refer to her as Baryon, or Bary, even within the text of a message.

She made it clear if you wrote her real first name, at any time, you would be cut off.


I'm now wondering if Audrey had received threats against her. Threats so bad that she insisted on being referred to as Baryon on a computer! The name 'Bary' could be read as a male person rather than a vulnerable female.

Oooops, didn't get back here in time to add this to my post above. However, I re-read the article again and now this struck me heavily:


Safarik asked rhetorically when considering the Gleave case. “Hmm … My advice is look young and look close.”


OK, so how many young men live close to Audrey's house?

One would think this would be a slam-dunk by now........:noooo:

I imagine December would be a busy time for visiting relatives or university students on holiday ..