Trial - Ross Harris #7

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But what was his crime to make it criminal negligence?

Now I know the sexting of the minor is a crime which will be dealt with. But are we saying that if he was only sexting with adults that day; Then the state wouldn't have a Cruelty or felony murder case?

If so then the state is reaching by trying to get various murder charges to hinge from him sexting a minor that morning at work. Jmo

He can't be charged with criminal negligence, because Cooper died in a car while trusted to his care?

I'm in a different state, but in the very few hot car cases we've had, the parent was charged with some degree of negligence. I don't recall any of them involved other factors like texting, but admittedly did not follow closely. There were plea bargains.
 
Just out of curiosity, have there been any other hot car deaths where the parent who left the child in the vehicle had just taken the child out for a special date (aka Daddy and Me time)? Why am I having such a hard believing that Ross decided to specifically carve time out of his morning to spend with Cooper but then promptly forgot him? I believe that FBS can happen to good, caring parents, and I have nothing but sympathy for them. However, I just cannot believe that Ross "forgot" Cooper when he supposedly wanted to spend extra time with Cooper.

As an aside, the DT would be far better off to call their expert witnesses and rest IMO. These attempted character references are falling more than flat, and they are serving to remind me how many lives Ross has affected. Cooper and the minor girls were not his only victims. The DT did far better on cross. I am ready to hear Dr. Diamond.
 
Just finished trying to watch this afternoon's testimony...curious to know while the parties were discussing things after court was dismissed, RH turned to his right twice and looked back behind him and smiled a sheepish grin....I tried to rewind and only could see a lady behind a man...no clue who she was or is,etc. Just thought after such traumatic events it was odd seeing him smile.
 
Just finished trying to watch this afternoon's testimony...curious to know while the parties were discussing things after court was dismissed, RH turned to his right twice and looked back behind him and smiled a sheepish grin....I tried to rewind and only could see a lady behind a man...no clue who she was or is,etc. Just thought after such traumatic events it was odd seeing him smile.

Ross smiles frequently before the jury comes in and after they leave. I don't think that it means anything, but it's interesting to watch.
 
stoddard testified that the ME said preliminary report believes before noon. at approx 1:01:00 mark on the PC Hearing video


Stoddard testified that the ME said preliminary report believes before noon. at approx 1:01:00 mark on the PC Hearing video.

BBM. Isn't the whole point of a preliminary medical report that it is subject to change? I know we have seen cases in the past where the details changed from the initial report to trial. I guess I don't get why this is worrying. Some of the other discrepancies, absolutely, but not this one.
Respectfully, I am not worried. Just pointing out. JMHO, There are dependencies in testimony. Also the State and Defense both disagree on this issue. So there's that. And as a matter of record, there has not been an amended Autopsy Report or Death Certificate. Manner of Death is UNDETERMINED and yet is on trial for different Murder charges. It shows typed up date of 6/20/2014. Signed 9/29/2014 and Death Certificate filed- Last day as of work as Dr. Frist retired

Especially since they did the Hot Car test.

9:26 a.m. Brani says around 3:30 p.m., the temperature reached 125 degrees.

Harris Trial: Heat expert says temps peaked at 125F in Harris' SUV, but prosecutors elude Cooper could have been alive at lunch. @wsbtv pic.twitter.com/XNyYT5DLKp — Ross Cavitt | WSB-TV (@RossCavittWSB) October 19, 2016

9:19 a.m. Brani says the temperatures inside and outside the car matched up around 11:35 a.m. at 88 degrees. At around 12:45, about the time Harris returned to his car after lunch, Brani says the temperature at the car seat was 98 degrees. He says the temperature in the car rose above 100 degrees shortly before 1 p.m.
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9:18 a.m. Brani says when testing began, the temperature inside the car was 65 degrees and outside was 80 degrees because the air conditioning had been running 30 minutes
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9:10 a.m. Brani says on June 18, 2014, the day of Cooper's death, the temperature was 91 degrees. On July 8, the day they did the heat study, it was 92 degrees. http://www.wsbtv.com/news/ross-harr...the-ross-harris-hot-car-death-trial/458662093
 
Just out of curiosity, have there been any other hot car deaths where the parent who left the child in the vehicle had just taken the child out for a special date (aka Daddy and Me time)? Why am I having such a hard believing that Ross decided to specifically carve time out of his morning to spend with Cooper but then promptly forgot him? I believe that FBS can happen to good, caring parents, and I have nothing but sympathy for them. However, I just cannot believe that Ross "forgot" Cooper when he supposedly wanted to spend extra time with Cooper.

As an aside, the DT would be far better off to call their expert witnesses and rest IMO. These attempted character references are falling more than flat, and they are serving to remind me how many lives Ross has affected. Cooper and the minor girls were not his only victims. The DT did far better on cross. I am ready to hear Dr. Diamond.

This #HotCaDeath case is different than the other cases as RH is charged with additional charges other than the Murders.
JMHO I trust the Defense (and State too for that matter on their Rebuttal) to know all the evidence and their trial strategy We are just observers a legal proceeding. I find it interesting to watch learning something different with all witnesses. We can't see the jury. And the Def has to secure the record in case of Appeal. Also there are those other charges you reminded us about. JMHO this trial will have an influence on that one as well. Although the Grand Jury Indictments are different, they all came from same source electronics. JMHO
 
Couple of thoughts.

If it was pre-planned, why would RH have said Cooper said "school" when he wanted everyone to think Cooper was sleepy?

I wonder he was sexting before he started taking testosterone. Not that it's an excuse, but can using it cause a crazy high sex drive?

That's what I wondered in a post on prior thread. We also are not privy to his full medical history or medications. Heck made me wonder even more if it was his "exhibit" in the "exhibits" The State has said "his erect penis" not that any more gross but what if it was someone else *advertiser censored* :puke:
 
After listening to the evidence, I also believe that Ross is capable of intentionally killing Cooper. Like you, I am not convinced that the State proved that beyond a reasonable doubt, but I absolutely believe that Ross could have killed Cooper with malice if he do desired,



The underlying felony is cruelty to children in the first or second degree. There is one count of felony murder for each child cruelty charge.


Katydid, I was thinking about your earlier comment regarding stress being an important component of FBS. The DT is going to have a difficult time convincing jurors that Ross was particularly stressed. All of the testimony to this point indicates that there was nothing out-of-the-ordinary with Ross on June 18. Ross's temperament has repeatedly been described as "normal" on the day of Cooper's death.

Except for the Witness Mr. Brown his team leader/supervisor. RH had got in trouble Monday or Tuesday and was supposed to have his project finished on Wed. He emailed Mr. Brown afer midnight /early morning 6/18/14. Had been dodging his meetings, then left early on Wed. If I understood the witness correctly, he told Det back in 2014 this information and that RH had been forgetting stuff. Brandon Miller another co worker said same thing about work (behind on project and possible stressed) that morning. I truly am beginning to think on some things he does hold stuff in/appear normal to some and inappropriate emotions for others. I see a pattern or multiple patterns. From various witnesses as a whole. JMHO
 
Except for the Witness Mr. Brown his team leader/supervisor. RH had got in trouble Monday or Tuesday and was supposed to have his project finished on Wed. He emailed Mr. Brown afer midnight /early morning 6/18/14. Had been dodging his meetings, then left early on Wed. If I understood the witness correctly, he told Det back in 2014 this information and that RH had been forgetting stuff. Brandon Miller another co worker said same thing about work (behind on project and possible stressed) that morning. I truly am beginning to think on some things he does hold stuff in/appear normal to some and inappropriate emotions for others. I see a pattern or multiple patterns. From various witnesses as a whole. JMHO

Maybe Ross felt like they were picking on him by giving others the easier assignments and leaving Ross with the harder ones.

Or Ross wanted to get fired.

Because I do not understand why Ross would blow off these assignments without care plus showing up late daily and leaving work early.
 
Something that I find interesting in these threads, is that Ross couldn't have killed Cooper, because he loved him.

I have worked in childrens advocacy for many years. Currently, I work with our advocacy center with my therapy dog. One major thing I've learned, is that many (in my experience) parents who abuse, neglect, or murder their children...tell other people they love their child. Most have pictures, most take their kids to daycare, most have been on vacations f they can afford. Most seem proud. Most seem happy. Yes, there are those cases where a parent has a tangled history and it's just really obvious they don't care about their child(ren.) Those people always exist and they aren't rare either. However, the vast majority of the extreme cases I've been involved with, were "normal" families. I've learned that "love" does not inherently prevent harm. "Love" does not mean a person loves their child more than themselves, their vice, their dreams, their affair, etc. Love does not mean incapable of harm. Love is not PROOF.

When I see Ross, I see someone capable of harming their child. Perhaps my view is colored by my experiences. It most likely is. But, I just cannot accept love as an excuse, justification, or proof. Ross was selfish, intensely cared about perceptions, hid dark parts of his life from people, broke the law, disrespected his wife, child, and family, prioritized his phone (and presumably sexting) over his job, etc. He was spiraling, IMO and allowing the side part of his life to consume his time. And he appeared to love his child. I cannot tell you how many men (and women) just like Ross I've dealt with who harmed, abused, neglected, or killed their child. Many of them never harmed their child, until they did. Many, many of them. Which is why I'd never be picked for a jury like this, lol. And it's why I don't buy his "love" defense. Love can damage as often as indifference, hate, and resentment. I don't know if the state proved intent, but I believe him CAPABLE of it.

Obviously this all JMO.

Excellent post and I wholeheartedly agree.

One close example of the extreme love someone can have for someone else and end up murdering that person is the common murder excuse of "If I cant have her then nobody will". There is no doubt that in many of those types of murders the person had extreme love for the person. So much so that they murdered the person because they could not or would not "let go" of that love even if they were the one that caused the marriage to dissolve.

Another and maybe better example is the case of "John E. List" who murdered his entire family of 5 because he loved them so much and wanted to protect them from the evil in the world to "save their souls" according to a letter he wrote to his pastor right before the murders. He then took off like the coward he was and lived a new life until 18 years later the law finally caught up with him.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/03/29/nyregion/i-know-that-what-has-been-done-is-wrong.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/25/nyregion/25list1.html
 
After listening to the evidence, I also believe that Ross is capable of intentionally killing Cooper. Like you, I am not convinced that the State proved that beyond a reasonable doubt, but I absolutely believe that Ross could have killed Cooper with malice if he do desired,



The underlying felony is cruelty to children in the first or second degree. There is one count of felony murder for each child cruelty charge.

Katydid, I was thinking about your earlier comment regarding stress being an important component of FBS. The DT is going to have a difficult time convincing jurors that Ross was particularly stressed. All of the testimony to this point indicates that there was nothing out-of-the-ordinary with Ross on June 18. Ross's temperament has repeatedly been described as "normal" on the day of Cooper's death.


BBM

I agree with you that it will be an uphill climb to convince the jury that he was particularly stressed that day. His coworkers said he seemed 'normal' at work and at lunchtime.

But today, when speaking to Ross's team leader, the DT seemed to be trying to create that illusion. They spoke a few times about the 'ultimatum' he was given on the previous day---to finish his work by the end of the day. And then the night before the tragic death, Ross emailed his team leader at midnight, which was unusual at that late hour. And he said he was stuck and couldn't figure out how to do the task. So I think the DT wanted to bring that out, to highlight it as a stressful situation which would be on his mind that morning.

But it will be interesting to see if the jury will accept that he was stressed. He did not seem concerned with working to smooth things over with his co-workers. Stopped for breakfast, came in late and missed the 9 am phone check in. Went out for lunch and left early for the movies. Did not seem all that stressed imo. Seems more like he was just trying to stay under the radar and hang in there.
 
" Criminal negligence" is not an offense and therefore cannot be the underlying felony for a felony murder conviction.

Involuntary manslaughter also cannot be the predicate offense for felony murder and carries a much shorter sentencing range.

http://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/...ticle

Yes. You're right. I know it is not a crime on it's own and it cannot be the underlying base for felony murder. I was typing fast and tired!! It would be child cruelty but that would imply that he intentionally left the child in the car or left him there without a care as to whether he died or not, which wouldn't make much sense. And I know involuntary manslaughter is not a predicate offense for felony murder. I wasn't trying to say that. Involuntary manslaughter is, per my research, a lesser included for murder and felony murder. (Or can be for the latter).
 
Something that I find interesting in these threads, is that Ross couldn't have killed Cooper, because he loved him.

I have worked in childrens advocacy for many years. Currently, I work with our advocacy center with my therapy dog. One major thing I've learned, is that many (in my experience) parents who abuse, neglect, or murder their children...tell other people they love their child. Most have pictures, most take their kids to daycare, most have been on vacations f they can afford. Most seem proud. Most seem happy. Yes, there are those cases where a parent has a tangled history and it's just really obvious they don't care about their child(ren.) Those people always exist and they aren't rare either. However, the vast majority of the extreme cases I've been involved with, were "normal" families. I've learned that "love" does not inherently prevent harm. "Love" does not mean a person loves their child more than themselves, their vice, their dreams, their affair, etc. Love does not mean incapable of harm. Love is not PROOF.

When I see Ross, I see someone capable of harming their child. Perhaps my view is colored by my experiences. It most likely is. But, I just cannot accept love as an excuse, justification, or proof. Ross was selfish, intensely cared about perceptions, hid dark parts of his life from people, broke the law, disrespected his wife, child, and family, prioritized his phone (and presumably sexting) over his job, etc. He was spiraling, IMO and allowing the side part of his life to consume his time. And he appeared to love his child. I cannot tell you how many men (and women) just like Ross I've dealt with who harmed, abused, neglected, or killed their child. Many of them never harmed their child, until they did. Many, many of them. Which is why I'd never be picked for a jury like this, lol. And it's why I don't buy his "love" defense. Love can damage as often as indifference, hate, and resentment. I don't know if the state proved intent, but I believe him CAPABLE of it.

Obviously this all JMO.

Or by websleuths. How many cases have we seen on here of kids battered to death over weeks or months. Tortured. And hundreds of people scream about how there is no way friends or neighbors or family didn't know. But they didn't, because the abusers put on a great front. And then we got to their social media. And over and over again, I see comments like, "What happened? She seemed to adore her child? She loved that kid. How did things change so fast?"

Now please, I am not insinuating that Ross battered Cooper. But things change. A baby can be beloved. And then not, in the blink of an eye. I don't get it. Never will. but there is something in some people that is more selfish and ugly than their ability to love.
 
But what was his crime to make it criminal negligence?

Now I know the sexting of the minor is a crime which will be dealt with. But are we saying that if he was only sexting with adults that day; Then the state wouldn't have a Cruelty or felony murder case?

If so then the state is reaching by trying to get various murder charges to hinge from him sexting a minor that morning at work. Jmo

"Criminal negligence in Georgia is more than just simple negligence. It requires that a person show a “willful, wanton, or reckless disregard for the safety of others” who might end up being injured by that person’s conduct. It is different from first degree cruelty to children because it doesn’t require the State to show that there was intent to cause cruel or excessive pain." https://www.pagepate.com/child-cruelty-georgia-law/

Let's say a parent is so immersed in video games, which he plays for several hours, that he doesn't notice his two year old wandering out the door and the two year old eventually falls into a canal and drowns. Is that criminal negligence? How about if mom invites a few men over for "fun" and leaves her kid in the car when she gets home because one of them has arrived and she is excited and forgets, and spends the next hours having sex while her kid dies in the car. Criminal negligence? According to the above article, those parents may be guilty of child cruelty, in the second degree. That would be count five. I think obsessing over sexting while you are supposed to be caring for a vulnerable two year old child, especially during the risky task of transporting the child in a vehicle, might be the same.

We shall see.
 
That's what I wondered in a post on prior thread. We also are not privy to his full medical history or medications. Heck made me wonder even more if it was his "exhibit" in the "exhibits" The State has said "his erect penis" not that any more gross but what if it was someone else *advertiser censored* :puke:


I had this terrible, terrible, terrible thought. What if those people he sent pictures of Cooper wanted them for, something awful.......... have heard it said not to post too many pics of your child online as pedophiles use them..........horrible to even think about, but..........
 
Earlier I mentioned he example of seat belt laws and people not wanting to use them because they didn't think it could happen to them. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that was what was going on with Ross. That was not what I meant. It was just thinking about why people don't put things in place to prevent FBS from happening, as in "they don't think it can happen to them."
Another example (not about Ross just in general): we lived in TN for one year and spent a lot of time at state parks. I noticed that many of the lakes had a sign put up by the state that went like this: "x number of people have drowned in this lake, x number of those were wearing a life jacket." always a very small number of people who drowned were wearing a life jacket in other words. We had a friend who had a boat and went out with his family and fishing trips a lot. I asked him if he had life jackets for his boat, "oh yes" he told me, "we have to by law." "But do you wear them?" I asked. "No, we use them to sit on," he replied.
 
{{"I see the state's strategy has been successful in creating so much prejudice against Ross that he can be convicted of murder without actual evidence. That's really not how our justice system is supposed to work, believe it or not."}} Quote

I'm sorry I didn't right down which one of you wonderful people said that but I thought it perfectly expressed one of my thoughts and said it better than I could or did. I realize it's the job of LEO's to investigate possible crimes. And I expressed the ways in which I thought LH/LT had been treated the night her son died and how I really felt bad for her that she was sent home to grieve alone after RH was arrested (I believe other family got there early the next morning but I may be wrong). Someone said well that was their job, but you know I just don't think so. I think their job should have been to gather evidence, check the evidence for correctness and then if warranted arrest the person. That's not what I saw happen here IMO.
The PROS arrested RH before they had hardly even begun to process evidence, what they let leak to the press caused this case to turn into a witch hunt, to the point that LH was afraid to answer the door.
Somebody said something to the effect that it would just be that much longer until she found out he was a lying, cheating, . I don't know if that's the case since the PROS didn't find that out immediately, did they?
I don't know which version of events LH/LT would have chosen, to have RH arrested when he was or say, a few days later. I do think she would have really, really preferred not to have the press after her like a pack of coon dogs after a coon. And in that respect LEO could have certainly conducted themselves better.
 
I realize I may sound like a broken record since I have made this observation once before but I really think RH may be somewhere on the autism spectrum. I noticed earlier someone said he was textbook ADHD and that often goes with autism. Think about how Ross acted initially.

Quote: "[FONT=&amp]It is common – but not universal – for those with autism to have difficulty regulating emotions. This can take the form of seemingly “immature” behavior such as crying or having outbursts in inappropriate situations. It can also lead to disruptive and physically aggressive behavior. The tendency to “lose control” may be particularly pronounced in unfamiliar, overwhelming or frustrating situations. Frustration can also result in self-injurious behaviors such as head banging, hair pulling or self-biting."" [/FONT]https://www.autismspeaks.org/what-autism/symptoms

Doesn't that sound a awful lot like what happened following the death of Cooper. Ross in the parking lot pacing and crying out, acting frustrated and angry when the police told him to get off the phone, not understanding why they thought that was inappropriate, back to the alternating crying and pacing in the interview room, and here's the biggie for me---did you notice him biting himself on the fingers?

I am not saying this excuses him forgetting Cooper, but don't you find it interesting and compelling?
 
I think this whole thing will come down to Dr Diamond and his ability/inability to convince the jury that Ross could have innocently forgotten his child in that short timeframe, in such cramped conditions.

I know that Dr D has a lot of successful past trials. BUt I read many of his past cases. And I think that every one of the defendants in those cases where pretty sympathetic characters. I did not see any of them that had the baggage that Ross carried with him in this trial. And I haven't seen any cases in which the driving time, from starting out to 'forgetting' ---was such a short time span.

I think that the fact that he was texting about needing an escape from family responsibilities, right when he began his drive to daycare, then promptly forgot, is going to be a hurdle that he has never had to overcome in previous trials. I don't believe any of his previous defendants were actively sexting/seeing prostitutes/messing with minors, at the time in question.

I will be curious to see how or if he is able to fashion the theory to fit this specific narrative.
 
They showed an immediate dislike for Ross once they went for the No Bail request. Jmo

Now most rapists/murder suspects still get a bail option.

But not Ross.

If anything they should have given him an affordable bail and simply monitored him to see how quickly he started sexting again and hooking up with lovers.

Because 1 sext text at the funeral would have put the nail in his coffin similar to how Scott Peterson was through once it was found out that he was courting Amber during Lacies vigil. Jmo.
 
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