Syringe in bottle contained traces of chloroform

The Eunice Burns · Nov 7, 2009

lizzysf said:
Wondering about those shop vacs/cleaners being tested..

It's hard to choose, but aside from paternity......the vacuums and what was found in them is what I am anxiously awaiting.

I have a very, very difficult time believing that CA and GA cleaned up after KC and did not know what it was that caused the horrific stench.

lizzysf · Nov 7, 2009

thedeviledadvocate said:
I think the GAS (Gator Ade/Syringe) in this case has a bad smell to it (like the rotting bag of garbage in the trunk). I think it is simply fodder for the media. The trace evidence for chloroform is measured in parts per trillion. If one part per trillion is normal, then 5 parts per trillion could be considered a high level by the media. More fodder for the media, high levels of chloroform found in the gatorade bottle, the syringe, and in the trunk. I do not think LE will pursue this GAS. I do not think LE will pursue Chloroform as a cause of death. I do think LE will try to use the traces of Chloroform found in the trunk to help trying to prove Caylee was actually in the trunk. I also think the bag of rotting garbage will make this harder to prove. Again though, I think the GAS in this case stinks. Just my opinion.

I see what your saying.. but the Chloroform in the trunk, per Body Farm results, were extrarodinarily high..not trace.

debbie0604 · Nov 7, 2009

ExpectingUnicorns said:
See, I just don't see that Casey is this self-controlled enough person to take on the task of making her own batch of chloroform. Do you have any idea how easily available it would be to her without making it herself?

And, just in case the placement of the syringe filled with testosterone, chloroform, ethanol and water was tossed in the same area as garbage and not really connected to Caylee ~ Do you know, right off the top of your head, anything (other drug or application) that it could possibly be? TIA.

I have thought the same thing about KC not being smart enough to make it herself, until I did several google searches on how to make it. It's not that difficult to make it. It's my opinion that it would be more difficult for her to purchase it than to make it herself. One site that I looked at stated that if one was involved in a science lab in college, one could purchase chloroform online more easily... and I thought about her BF and friends being in school, but I threw out that idea... I'm more inclined that she made this chloroform herself particularly after she herself did those google searches for the chloroform recipes. It's really not that difficult to make... proves to me calculation and premeditation. I really hope SHE gets the needle!

cecybeans · Nov 7, 2009

lizzysf said:
In the beginning when drowning was my theory (pool shock+urine=Chloroform) was ruled out by the experts to be to high in the trunk for this type of production, I decided that the Chloroform was a fluke and probably related to cleaning products also. But the the Chloroform search and now the Chloroform/syringe at the dumpsite has me retracting that thought. How can Chlororform be a triple coincidence? Even if it was a commonly occuring substance..which Chloroform is not, I would still be a bit suspicious of the links.

Perhaps not if cleaning fluid was the origin of the contents of the syringe. I still think the google searches were related to the TV episode and most likely for CA and GA because of the accompanying searches of neck breaking. Chloroform by itself would have been hard to make and is very volatile - KC could have knocked herself out at that close range. However, "household weapons" looks good to me because it would most likely involve solvents.

Wudge · Nov 7, 2009

thedeviledadvocate said:
I think the GAS (Gator Ade/Syringe) in this case has a bad smell to it (like the rotting bag of garbage in the trunk). I think it is simply fodder for the media. The trace evidence for chloroform is measured in parts per trillion. If one part per trillion is normal, then 5 parts per trillion could be considered a high level by the media. More fodder for the media, high levels of chloroform found in the gatorade bottle, the syringe, and in the trunk. I do not think LE will pursue this GAS. I do not think LE will pursue Chloroform as a cause of death. I do think LE will try to use the traces of Chloroform found in the trunk to help trying to prove Caylee was actually in the trunk. I also think the bag of rotting garbage will make this harder to prove. Again though, I think the GAS in this case stinks. Just my opinion.

I agree. There's no evidence that the exact same chemical mixture in the Gatorade bottle was also found in the trunk of Casey's car. Moreover, neither the syringe nor the chemicals founds contents of the Gatorade bottle bottle prove murder, much less a premeditated murder.

Furthermore, there's no evidence that places either the syringe or the bottle in Casey's hands, and the testosterone is evidence that points away from Casey.

When the necessary inculpatory evidence is missing or is not highly reliable, it would be junk logic to pretend that highly reliable premises could be formed from the evidence that could prove 1st degree murder at the level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

faefrost · Nov 7, 2009

oh_gal said:
But what if the goal wasn't to kill her, only to knock her out for a few hours, but something went wrong, resulting in death?

It doesn't matter. Giving a child chloroform is a premeditated and deliberate act that results in harm to the child. It doesn't matter if death was the intended outcome or not. The very act of using the chloroform is the deliberate harm. So the charges and guilt would not change.

The Eunice Burns · Nov 7, 2009

cecybeans said:
Well then, sir, your beef is with the press for inaccurate reporting as well as the defense for fighting the gag order. And, in regards to poisoned pools, I see nothing has been said for the un-circumspect and rather flamboyant claims the defense team has made on any national TV show that would have them. What defense attorney leaves the gate with a "PR" and media person like TB?? What "grieving grandparents" hire a criminal attorney soon after to ostensibly "handle the media"?

:clap: cecy!

This concept that the jury pool has been poisoned in a case where we know that....

The SA has not given interviews to the media
The defense has given numerous interviews to the media
The defense hired a publicist who has a shady background (TB/GC)
The accused's parents lawyered up and refused polys
The accused's parents teamed up w/ a disreptuable organization, KF
The accused's parents have been on TV too many times to keep track of
The crime occured in a state where the "Sunshine"s in a criminal proceeding

And still.........the notion unfairly persists that the SA is poisoning the jury pool? That is a mind bender..................:waitasec:

BeanE · Nov 7, 2009

thedeviledadvocate said:
I think the GAS (Gator Ade/Syringe) in this case has a bad smell to it (like the rotting bag of garbage in the trunk). I think it is simply fodder for the media. The trace evidence for chloroform is measured in parts per trillion. If one part per trillion is normal, then 5 parts per trillion could be considered a high level by the media. More fodder for the media, high levels of chloroform found in the gatorade bottle, the syringe, and in the trunk. I do not think LE will pursue this GAS. I do not think LE will pursue Chloroform as a cause of death. I do think LE will try to use the traces of Chloroform found in the trunk to help trying to prove Caylee was actually in the trunk. I also think the bag of rotting garbage will make this harder to prove. Again though, I think the GAS in this case stinks. Just my opinion.

Rotting garbage? Link please.

whiteangora · Nov 7, 2009

Okay, I have read all 800+ posts on this thread and nobody has convinced me that this new "evidence" is at all connected to Caylee's death. I have yet to see what the proportion of chloroform was in the syringe or the bottle. I keep thinking of how this spot on Suburban was a dump site and even though Casey is a ding-a-ling she's not goofy enough to inject Caylee then repackage a syringe and throw it out near the dump site. It is also my belief that she was not thinking clearly enough at that time to be trying to frame anyone.
So, can anyone convince me otherwise?

lizzysf · Nov 7, 2009

cecybeans said:
Perhaps not if cleaning fluid was the origin of the contents of the syringe. I still think the google searches were related to the TV episode and most likely for CA and GA because of the accompanying searches of neck breaking. Chloroform by itself would have been hard to make and is very volatile - KC could have knocked herself out at that close range. However, "household weapons" looks good to me because it would most likely involve solvents.

But if CA/GA cleaned the car trunk and those cleaning products are to blame for the discovery of Chloroform in the trunk... how do we explain why that cleaning fluid they used would be put into a syringe and found at the dump site?

RubyB · Nov 7, 2009

doogiesgirl said:
Is this what you are looking for?

http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/18739950/detail.html

Pic #20 is of gatorade bottle cool blue

I noticed and wanted to point out that in this slideshow that Doogiesgirl so kindly provided the link to, in images 19 and 20 of the Gatorade bottle there is definitely "leakage" on the paper. Presumably from the bottle. FWIW.

It also looks like there's a lot of liquid in that bottle. I was under the impression that there was just a little bit in the bottom.

lizzysf · Nov 7, 2009

whiteangora said:
Okay, I have read all 800+ posts on this thread and nobody has convinced me that this new "evidence" is at all connected to Caylee's death. I have yet to see what the proportion of chloroform was in the syringe or the bottle. I keep thinking of how this spot on Suburban was a dump site and even though Casey is a ding-a-ling she's not goofy enough to inject Caylee then repackage a syringe and throw it out near the dump site. It is also my belief that she was not thinking clearly enough at that time to be trying to frame anyone.
So, can anyone convince me otherwise?

She was calm and cool as a cucumber the evening of the murder to snuggle with TL and stroll through BB Video.. I think she had the cool to also plot and frame. She knew it was a hasty dump after the gas can incident (imo).. a poor choice of location and that the body would be found soon.. She worked quick at framing someone possibly... Interesting too how Jesse is included in the Blanchard Park kidnap story.. All arrows are pointing back to Jesse in all the right evidentiary clues..chloroform, car, computer, BP..I am sure i'm missing some others. He would be your fallguy.

JBean · Nov 7, 2009

whiteangora said:
Okay, I have read all 800+ posts on this thread and nobody has convinced me that this new "evidence" is at all connected to Caylee's death. I have yet to see what the proportion of chloroform was in the syringe or the bottle. I keep thinking of how this spot on Suburban was a dump site and even though Casey is a ding-a-ling she's not goofy enough to inject Caylee then repackage a syringe and throw it out near the dump site. It is also my belief that she was not thinking clearly enough at that time to be trying to frame anyone.
So, can anyone convince me otherwise?

I can't help you because I totally agree.

ETA: if this is all connected i don't think we have seen that info yet. jmho of course.

cecybeans · Nov 7, 2009

lizzysf said:
But if CA/GA cleaned the car trunk and those cleaning products are to blame for the discovery of Chloroform in the trunk... how do we explain why that cleaning fluid they used would be put into a syringe and found at the dump site?

It may be the same solvent used in the Gatorade bottle. KC could have easily thrown some in it while she was grabbing the duct tape. We also don't know what chemicals, if any, were even in the car. I keep a little collection of cleaning supplies in my trunk.

I am also not convinced that this wasn't an attempt to frame someone else, like the zenaida page if that pans out. This girl, even if she is tres ADD on follow-through, is sneaky, shady and definitely spiteful.

Wudge · Nov 7, 2009

cecybeans said:
Well then, sir, your beef is with the press for inaccurate reporting as well as the defense for fighting the gag order. And, in regards to poisoned pools, I see nothing has been said for the un-circumspect and rather flamboyant claims the defense team has made on any national TV show that would have them. What defense attorney leaves the gate with a "PR" and media person like TB?? What "grieving grandparents" hire a criminal attorney soon after to ostensibly "handle the media"?

Defense attorneys must do what is necessary or the best they can to protect their client's right to a fair trial by an impartial jury. High-profile cases such as this one have a very corrosive effect on the defendant's Constitutional rights. And the obvious rush to judgment mentality in these cases carries over to society as a whole and to other cases.

debbie0604 · Nov 7, 2009

RR0004 said:
I'd like to know how it seeped out in the trunk...enough to register in the air sample. If she had injected Caylee with it, I don't think it would have come through her pores...but with decomposition perhaps it could. If the bottle was capped and in the trunk, would there be seeping through the plastic? Would they be able to see that on the bottle (tiny holes)? Could she possibly have transfered the chloroform to the Gatorade bottle from another container inside the trunk? The thing is, if the chloroform had been open, she would have been at risk of being overcome.

From what I read, chloroform stored in plastic reacts with the plastic and creates a gas (phosgene) which was used in WWI. Also, it is true that while using it she could have possibly been overcome with it as well. That's why I think she did alot of reading up on how to make it, etc. LE found traces of ethanol in the syringe. From what I've read, not only does it stabilize the chloroform, but it also accelerates its effects. The more I read about this, the more I'm astounded. I really think she knew what she was doing. Personally, IMO, she had the gloves and masks available to use while making it from CA (who is a nurse). The needle I think she stole from a BF who may have been self injecting with steroids. That's just my opinion. The high levels in the trunk IMO could be from the beginning stages of the reaction with the plastic. From what I've read it will not react with some plastics. That may be why it remained in the syringe. That's just MO. She didn't store it in a black bottle because she wasn't going to use it again. Just my :twocents:

Wudge · Nov 7, 2009

faefrost said:
It doesn't matter. Giving a child chloroform is a premeditated and deliberate act that results in harm to the child. It doesn't matter if death was the intended outcome or not. The very act of using the chloroform is the deliberate harm. So the charges and guilt would not change.

Incorrect. It does matter. It matters greatly. No intent, no murder one.

HTH

spqr · Nov 7, 2009

Wudge said:
I agree. There's no evidence that the exact same chemical mixture in the Gatorade bottle was also found in the trunk of Casey's car. Moreover, neither the syringe nor the chemicals founds contents of the Gatorade bottle bottle prove murder, much less a premeditated murder.

Furthermore, there's no evidence that places either the syringe or the bottle in Casey's hands, and the testosterone is evidence that points away from Casey.

When the necessary inculpatory evidence is missing or is not highly reliable, it would be junk logic to pretend that highly reliable premises could be formed from the evidence that could prove 1st degree murder at the level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Wudge,

Respectfully BBM

At this time can only disagree with what I bolded above. I don't believe the Testosterone points away from casey but it also doesn't point to her either. Women do use Testosterone for medically necessary reasons and probably other reasons not in the legal spectrum.

The Eunice Burns · Nov 7, 2009

whiteangora said:
Okay, I have read all 800+ posts on this thread and nobody has convinced me that this new "evidence" is at all connected to Caylee's death. I have yet to see what the proportion of chloroform was in the syringe or the bottle. I keep thinking of how this spot on Suburban was a dump site and even though Casey is a ding-a-ling she's not goofy enough to inject Caylee then repackage a syringe and throw it out near the dump site. It is also my belief that she was not thinking clearly enough at that time to be trying to frame anyone.
So, can anyone convince me otherwise?

I hear you. You make some good points. But, I'm holding out for her fingerprints on the syringe and/or bottle. That would be a lovely way to finish out 2009 for KC. If I am disappointed in that...there are other things to keep me going.....

I respectfully disagree though that KC was not thinking clearly enough to frame anyone. IMO, she won't go down as the brightest bulb in the box of murderers, but she has demonstrated some proficiency (to what degree, opinions may vary) for thinking on her feet in a cold, calculating manner. I think more planning went into this than we know. JMO

spqr · Nov 7, 2009

Wudge said:
Incorrect. It does matter. It matters greatly. No intent, no murder one.

HTH

Wudge,

sorry you don't need intent for a murder one charge as per Florida Law.

1782.04 Murder.--

(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:

1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;

2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:

a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),

b. Arson,

c. Sexual battery,

d. Robbery,

e. Burglary,

f. Kidnapping,

g. Escape,

h. Aggravated child abuse,

i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,

j. Aircraft piracy,

k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,

l. Carjacking,

m. Home-invasion robbery,

n. Aggravated stalking,

o. Murder of another human being,

p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,

q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or

Syringe in bottle contained traces of chloroform

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