Conrad Murray Trial - Day Twenty One

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bravowhisky said:
Didn't one of the paramedics testify that MJ was cool to the touch? If the human body cools at roughly 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit per hour, MJ could have been dead for hour or more.

I'm guessing this is what happened:

CM was clueless. He doesn't use (or possibly even know about) vented tubing sets that allow you to draw directly from a glass bottle of propofol. He possibly doesn't even realize the bottle has a plastic tab that you're supposed to hang it with.

He tries to get MJ to sleep with midazolam and diazepam, but to no avail. MJ is still awake. You can hear the frustration in CM's voice when he relays this in the police interview, that MJ just won't fall asleep.

So CM takes the almost-drained saline bag that he previously used to hydrate MJ earlier in the evening, then crudely spikes the top of a Propofol bottle, putting it into the saline bag and lets it flow freely into the drip. Either accidentally or intentionally, he leaves the IV set wide open, so MJ gets a big dose and finally falls asleep.

CM is relieved and finally takes a break to make some phone calls and relax. MJ dies sometime in this period and it goes unnoticed by CM because of the lack of monitoring and audible alarm. He discovers MJ, panics, makes up a story that he was only gone for two minutes. Finally CM calls Michael Amir, and the rest is history.
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I bet you are pretty darn close to what actually went down. I can buy this theory... yep, sure can!!
 
TxLady2 said:
I've had occasion to call 911, and they've NEVER asked me for my zip code. I'm not in big old LA, but still.... don't you think that most EMT's would KNOW where Michael Jackson lives???
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I have never heard of that either. All they ask for is the address and what is hard to remember 100 N. Carollwood? I mean CM had to know the address since he had been coming there for two months.

Its all a bunch of bull, TxLady.

IMO
 
Talina said:
I don't see how they can add a new witness to their witness list at this late date. I understand it is because of these models that she did and White could not testify to but that is of their own making. They just got these models last week and IMO shouldn't have been able to introduce them at that time either. They first should have come into evidence by the person that ran them to establish a foundation for White's testimony about them but that is not what happened. Makes me think that they totally misled Judge Pastor just exactly what White's qualifications were to even speak intelligently about them.

I really wonder how Flanagan even knew about her to begin with. For that reason alone, I hope she testifies. Flanagan seems to fly by the seat of his pants most of the time and comes across to me as though he really is out of his league when it comes to this trial. It would not surprise me one bit if she contacted him out of the blue offering to help with her own models and he took her up on it just taking her at her word that she knew what she was doing. I also can't imagine an expert witness taking models like he did without even knowing this person and their reputation and credentials yet he sits there on the stand and calls her an expert at doing this sort of thing. How could he possibly know that when he just met her last week and by his own admission spent very little time with her, didn't review anything she used to base her model programming on, didn't review any of her input data for accuracy and no matter how many times he referred to her as an expert, just saying it doesn't make it so.
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Good stuff, Talina -- I don't understand them admitting this late party-goer in the ring at this time either, but I'm a programmer and a bit of a writer, so I expect to hear from someone on here or from HLN, etc., who always speaks with such impeccable know-how and amazing accuracy.
icon6.gif


But another thang:

This will add more time to the case and may delay the "last day" of testimony -- this woman's testimony could add at least another half-day (2 hours).
icon9.gif


News from IS -- CM says he needs "more time" to decide about the stand... delay tactics?? Do they always work against the prosecution, or do they work against who is causing it? Who knoze with a jury?? But I feel that this jury will figure out the culprit if they think there is a snail in the room...

Three cheers for McSteamy and Brazil and JB and for justice for MJ and the People of the State of California!!:woohoo:

Good Morning, Sleuthers!
 
borndem said:
Good stuff, Talina -- I don't understand them admitting this late party-goer in the ring at this time either, but I'm a programmer and a bit of a writer, so I expect to hear from someone on here or from HLN, etc., who always speaks with such impeccable know-how and amazing accuracy.
icon6.gif


But another thang:

This will add more time to the case and may delay the "last day" of testimony -- this woman's testimony could add at least another half-day (2 hours).
icon9.gif


News from IS -- CM says he needs "more time" to decide about the stand... delay tactics?? Do they always work against the prosecution, or do they work against who is causing it? Who knoze with a jury?? But I feel that this jury will figure out the culprit if they think there is a snail in the room...

Three cheers for McSteamy and Brazil and JB and for justice for MJ and the People of the State of California!!:woohoo:

Good Morning, Sleuthers!
Click to expand...

Good morning :)

Beth Karas just said that he has to tell Judge Pastor at 8:30 this morning whether or not he is going to testify so he's definitely out of time now and can't wait until the end of testimony to decide. Of course, I suppose he could change his mind at the last second and I can't imagine the judge telling him no if he wants to testify. Although, I would not want to be the recipient of that look he'd get if he tries to pull that stunt.
 
TxLady2 said:
Oh, thank you, sweetie, but it's true!
I do admire his masterful way of questioning, he seems to be head and shoulders above the two clowns at the defense table. Knows his stuff, he do!
But, yeah.... he's a delight to look at, too.
Click to expand...

Well, I could also be his grandmother or close, too! But we still have our eyes, right??!!

But I will say this:

There ain't nuttin' wrong with being smart AND purty!! :blushing:
 
borndem said:
Good stuff, Talina -- I don't understand them admitting this late party-goer in the ring at this time either, but I'm a programmer and a bit of a writer, so I expect to hear from someone on here or from HLN, etc., who always speaks with such impeccable know-how and amazing accuracy.
icon6.gif


But another thang:

This will add more time to the case and may delay the "last day" of testimony -- this woman's testimony could add at least another half-day (2 hours).
icon9.gif


News from IS -- CM says he needs "more time" to decide about the stand... delay tactics?? Do they always work against the prosecution, or do they work against who is causing it? Who knoze with a jury?? But I feel that this jury will figure out the culprit if they think there is a snail in the room...

Three cheers for McSteamy and Brazil and JB and for justice for MJ and the People of the State of California!!:woohoo:

Good Morning, Sleuthers!
Click to expand...

Morning Borndem!:seeya:

BBM

That is ridiculous. It the DT has no more witnesses to call then CM is going to have to get off the pot and make a decision. Is he hoping a delay will tick the jurors off? Maybe some of the jurors the DT have been watching during the trial they wish weren't on there. Do they smell a guilty verdict in the air?

If he is judging how the case has gone for him.......then he has to know the DT has gained no ground but have been made out to be nincompoops.

IMO
 
TxLady2 said:
Oh, yeah, he's a keeper! Much more my speed. Pretty fair so far, too.
I had a crush-let on that one cute doctor, too... the wavy-haired, blonde/gray guy who had such a nice smile.... Oooooh, he was FINE!
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We bad, Lady!!

You have good taste!!

Let's have another Good Day for the Home Team.
icon7.gif
 
Watching yesterday's testimony about Corad returning to the room approx 2 minutes later, found Michael not breathing and looked at pulse oximeter that showed a heart rate of 122: Problem here - portable pulse ox does not continuously run and secondly did he ever mention what the oxygen saturation reading was???? Very important information left out if he did not.


ETA: a pulse oximeter will not give a oxygen saturation if a persons appendage (finger, toe, earlobe) is too cool, needs to be warmed up.
 
borndem said:
Well, I could also be his grandmother or close, too! But we still have our eyes, right??!!

But I will say this:

There ain't nuttin' wrong with being smart AND purty!! :blushing:
Click to expand...

:floorlaugh:

I saw a poster say yesterday that they have watched eye candy Walgren so much until they think they have a cavity in their eye!:floorlaugh:
 
Beth Karas said the schedule today is redirect and recross on Dr. White. Then, Dr. Ornellas, then rebuttal with Dr. Shafer back on the stand and all of this is supposed to happen today. How on earth is that all going to happen today? Flanagan took 30 minutes yesterday just asking Dr. White about the 911 call issue. He hasn't even gotten to anything else yet. I wonder if Judge Pastor told him to speed it up. Clearly he can, he wastes so much time on one topic asking it 100 different ways. Just drives me nuts and he loses whatever point he was trying to make by not just getting his point made and then moving on.
 
So the numbers on Ornellas work are wrong in terms of dose levels found at autopsy. Sweet!
 
If I knew I was innocent, I wouldn't hesitate to testify, so why does Conrad need more time to think about it?
 
Sunny Hostin just said she thought Dr. White did a good job. I don't think she watched the same testimony that I did. :floorlaugh:
 
Beth Karas just said Flanagan yesterday at the end of the day once the jurors left told Judge Pastor that he only has 15 or 20 minutes left on his redirect of Dr. White. Then she said "I'll believe that when I see it." :floorlaugh:
 
Talina said:
Sunny Hostin just said she thought Dr. White did a good job. I don't think she watched the same testimony that I did. :floorlaugh:
Click to expand...

I was :floorlaugh: about that myself! Then, she turned around and said he came up way short on the standards of care testimony! Hey, isn't this a standards of care case? :waitasec:

By the end of the day, Dr. White ended up saying MJ was dead when CM came back into the room, reading his own pulse. That says it all! Same as we have been saying all along.

Murray was such a coward to own up to the truth at the time and cleaned the crime scene and then pretended to revive MJ with his idiotic CPR with the ambu-bag on the floor, since he knew it was useless. The paramedic testified that, instead of giving MJ CPR all the way to the ambulance (in his infamous LE statement), he was still clening up the CRIME SCENE! Of course he forgot, in the emotion of the moment, to tell anyone about the propofol! Another :floorlaugh: here.

Also, I think the DT is having a hard time convincing CM not to testify. As bad as it is, he would make it so much worse. Of course, CM may believe that his lawyers did such a lousey job of representing him, he can do better.
 
Talina said:
Good morning :)

Beth Karas just said that he has to tell Judge Pastor at 8:30 this morning whether or not he is going to testify so he's definitely out of time now and can't wait until the end of testimony to decide. Of course, I suppose he could change his mind at the last second and I can't imagine the judge telling him no if he wants to testify. Although, I would not want to be the recipient of that look he'd get if he tries to pull that stunt.
Click to expand...

Good Morning!

So many people have stated that if CM testifies, it would cause him more harm &
that there would be an immediate clean-sweep of "defendent guilty" from the jurors.

Well, that's exactly the reason I think he should be made to take the stand.
I think the jurors & the entire world deserve to watch/hear him tell, in his own
words, his version of what happened to MJ.

Even though it would all be lies, it would be gratifying (for me) to see him
squirm and stutter and belch and scratch... while Walgren questions him.

(I also think Casey A should've been made to take the stand & tell the world,
in her own words, her version of what happened to Caley.)
 
oceanblueeyes said:
I am thoroughly disgustet by White's opinions (excuses) about this case.

As I said before he reminds me of a parent of a unruly child in the principal's office that blames it all on everyone else except their child (the actual problem.):innocent:

There are so many leaps being made with nothing to back it up. How can he dare say it was MJ who injected? How can he rule out that CM wasnt the culprit? After all it was CM that was giving him the lorazepam and propofol to begin with. How can a total of 50 mgs of Propofol have the high levels in MJ femoral blood with that dose?

Indeed. That's what Walgren, Shafer & Co. will need to bang on today, or whenever they get the chance. He did charts & charts on trying to find how the level could have been reached. And he found one and only one that would satisfy all parameters. Perhaps the DT can ask their late-comer if she did so, as well....

He seems to project waiting to call 911 wasnt a biggy at all because after all MJ was already dead. Yet, CM insisted they keep working on MJ and he would not agree to calling his death.

Yeah, he even insisted at the ER and MJ was pronounced, what?, 3 hours later, and after they did all that stuff to MJ's little body, and made that ER staff work on what they surely and sadly knew was a lost cause? But they may have some policy for high profile cases, so they probably have to be very careful to walk that thin line of risk vs. benefit. And adverse publicity. This is La-La Land..(no disrespect intended -- I'm from the far east)...

He said security had to be called because the gate was closed. :innocent: Really? Just how long does White think it would have taken the guard to come to the gate when the voice box button was pushed by EMTS or if they arrived with their sirens on? Maybe 30 seconds? Plus the guard trailer has a monitor where it shows anyone approaching the gate.

Call 911, takes 15--20 seconds, then call the guard gate. Dayam, Conrad, that's so weak and lame and uncaring about the, um, what is it? oh, yeah, the "First Do No Harm" part..to the patient, not to his doctor. Grrrrrr.

So it is hunky doorie to Dr. White that CM walked out of the room for an hour to talk with his ladies. Yeah, he had no monitoring equipment but that seems to be ok for White too. MJ just looked like he was sleeping:innocent:. Of course dead people can look like their just sleeping too. But now CM is so good that all it takes is for MJ to 'appear' to be sleeping.

Who stays sound asleep when given Propofol? Those who have been given a bolus and a drip would but if they were only given a 25 mg bolus they would be awake in 8-10 minutes. Why wouldn't Murray already know something was wrong if he stayed 30 minutes and MJ was still asleep?

"Well, I thought he had gone into natural sleep. He looked fine to me while I was sweet-talking, er, ah, um, which one was it?? Suzy, Sally, Sade, Sunny, Stephanie, um, Stella, Sarah, or um, oh yeah, or Selia." :liar:

In fact medical staff rouses the patient just to make sure they are coming out from under it to make sure they are not still in medium or deep sedation. But not Murray and White thinks that is perfectly ok.

White dismisses the slit saline bag because it just doesnt make sense to him. Well Hello Dr. White........nothing this defendant did makes any sense so why would you think this would be any different?

This DT wants to make me hurl. They are all so devious. I don't trust any of them including their $3500 per day rent a hired gun expert.

Sorry but I just had to vent.:seeya:
Click to expand...

BBM Pardon my sticking my ramble within your good stuff...

Good Morning to you, ocean! I hope you can hang'em high with us today. We miss your intelligence & humor when you're away.

How are your ribs doing, Girrrrrllll?

I've just penciled-in some of my little, small rants, too. We'll just have to sit back and see, when we get the chance, what new, shiny bullets our Dream Machine has for the DT witnesses.

Here's to . :behindbar . for Murray

and to . :justice: . for Jackson!!
 
One thing that has bothered me is this gate thing regarding emergency vehicles. My background is in commercial real estate and in any city I've dealt with properties (and there have been more than just a few) there have always been ordinances that if it is a gated property, there must always be a keypad that has a code for emergency personnel to utilize to gain access. In absence of that, a lockbox with a key that they have the code to in order to access the key so that they can open the gate.

I can't imagine that being any different for a private residence. Say there is a fire or a breakin, etc and someone inside a house calls police or fire for help, emergency help just can't be sitting outside a closed gate and just sit there twiddling their thumbs waiting on someone inside the residence to grant them entrance.

Anyone have any insight to this as far as what is the norm for a private residence?
 
Talina said:
Beth Karas said the schedule today is redirect and recross on Dr. White. Then, Dr. Ornellas, then rebuttal with Dr. Shafer back on the stand and all of this is supposed to happen today. How on earth is that all going to happen today? Flanagan took 30 minutes yesterday just asking Dr. White about the 911 call issue. He hasn't even gotten to anything else yet. I wonder if Judge Pastor told him to speed it up. Clearly he can, he wastes so much time on one topic asking it 100 different ways. Just drives me nuts and he loses whatever point he was trying to make by not just getting his point made and then moving on.
Click to expand...

BBM


He wastes so much time just on one sentence!

Watch how he pauses between each word, stops mid-sentence to say he'll rephrase the question...
then he "ummms", "errrs" ... then takes 2 steps left, 2 steps right... looks at the ceiling, the floor,
his hands while not saying anything, then moves his hands around for emphasis ( of what?) ... before
finishing his sentence... which by that time he forgot what the question was. :banghead:

And God forbid, the witness asks Flanagan to repeat the question.
Rarely does he repeat it, because he either forgot what it was...
or he didn't understand what he asked, either.
 
Talina said:
One thing that has bothered me is this gate thing regarding emergency vehicles. My background is in commercial real estate and in any city I've dealt with properties (and there have been more than just a few) there have always been ordinances that if it is a gated property, there must always be a keypad that has a code for emergency personnel to utilize to gain access. In absence of that, a lockbox with a key that they have the code to in order to access the key so that they can open the gate.

I can't imagine that being any different for a private residence. Say there is a fire or a breakin, etc and someone inside a house calls police or fire for help, emergency help just can't be sitting outside a closed gate and just sit there twiddling their thumbs waiting on someone inside the residence to grant them entrance.

Anyone have any insight to this as far as what is the norm for a private residence?
Click to expand...

I live in a private gated community where there are a lot of "snow birds"
(residents who leave during the sweltering 115 degree summers) that reside
here only during the cooler & more comfortable months of the year.

Because there are so many retired & elderly people who live here, and because there are
so many vacant homes during the summer & holiday seasons, it is required that we inform
"the Posse" (our local police department) the where abouts of an extra key to our houses.

If one does not want to give their extra key to a friend or neighbor,
they have the option of the fire department placing a keybox on their property...
with only the FD & PD knowing the code to get inside the box.


ETA: There has to be some Websleuths members who are movie stars & celebrities living in LA, Beverly Hills, etc...
with private, gated, personal properties.... that can tell us how it works for them!!
 
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