Are the Ramseys involved or not?

Are the Ramseys involved or not?

  • The Ramseys are somehow involved in the crime and/or cover-up

    Votes: 883 75.3%

  • The Ramseys are not involved at all in the crime or cover-up

    Votes: 291 24.8%
  • Total voters
    1,173

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erinleigh said:
WOW THX. nothing like a little post to make u feel like an idiot. i toought this board was about sharing ideas and things we found. not a whole lot of "fact" in this case since it never went to trial. most things we will never know.
i never said any was fact or i believed it. offered it as a read.
try to be more considerate of people feelings please.
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As I wrote two hours before you wrote this post, I didn't mean YOU personally, I meant you, in general. Bad habit of mine.

I'm all about sharing ideas based on facts. What is the point in sleuthing fiction to solve a case? This story is ridiculous, and that is no reflection on you, erinleigh, it's a reflection on whomever wrote it by pulling misinformation out of their behinds.
 
I am very interested in theories involving the garrote on tonight's websleuths blog talk radio.

I hope this is brought up.
 
weeble said:
I find this article interesting because of 2(A):

Ramsey would later tell Det. Arndt that he found a broken window in the basement train room during his morning visit even though initial investigation by the Boulder Police revealed NO SUCH broken window. It is thought that at the time of his 'visit', Ramsey broke, or cracked the window himself.

If this is true, then it's possible there really was no intruder. The window and suitcase must have been staged along with the footprint. Didn't Mr Ramsey reveal that he had locked himself out the past summer and had to break the window to get back in? Maybe that was a lie too
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Yes, JR said he didn't have a key and had to break the window in the Summer. He was back from a business trip - he took off his suit, put his business shoes back on, :sick: and slid through the window in his tightie whities.

The police found several windows unlocked during their initial inspection of the house. In some interviews John said he saw the window at around 7 - another interview he says he found it around 10 (when Arndt found he was missing). I believe this is when JR moved JonBenet's body closer to the wine room door so she would be discovered.
 
Even though LE cleared them, my gut tells me they are involved in some way.
 
DesSands said:
Even though LE cleared them, my gut tells me they are involved in some way.
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No one is completely cleared until there is a trial - especially anyone without an alibi that night. The Ramsey's have an alibi, they were in the home with JonBenet.

LE, Mary Lacey in particular, cleared the Ramsey's under threat of a lawsuit, IMO - and I base my opinion on Lin Wood's pattern of getting what he wanted from the Boulder DA and BPD. Read the document from Wood to Alex Hunter posted in the archives (not sure the name of the thread), and you will see what I mean.
 
vlpate said:
Yes, JR said he didn't have a key and had to break the window in the Summer. He was back from a business trip - he took off his suit, put his business shoes back on, :sick: and slid through the window in his tightie whities.

The police found several windows unlocked during their initial inspection of the house. In some interviews John said he saw the window at around 7 - another interview he says he found it around 10 (when Arndt found he was missing). I believe this is when JR moved JonBenet's body closer to the wine room door so she would be discovered.
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According to Patsy, after the murder, she told LE that LOTS of people had keys. She was also said to keep a spare key hidden in a statue on the lawn. She had given the statue a French name, like child and dog. The statue was called
(I THINK- Francois).
There should have been no need for JR to break into the house in his skivvies- ewwww.
 
I think Patsy did it. Not sure why..probably some abuse that went too far. The note was clearly written by someone who had intimate knowledge of the family and in my opinion was written to get John out of the house. It tells him to go to the bank..and i believe if he had, Patsy would have dumped the body. She had staged the body for dumping...but she needed John gone because getting the body to the car would be too noisy. But John did what he should have done, searched the house and made her call 911..i think it was during this time before the police arrived that John realized what really was happening. If John had been involved, the body would have been dumped before the police were called. THis is just my opinion...but i don't believe there was an intruder.
 
Mikebr said:
I think Patsy did it. Not sure why..probably some abuse that went too far. The note was clearly written by someone who had intimate knowledge of the family and in my opinion was written to get John out of the house. It tells him to go to the bank..and i believe if he had, Patsy would have dumped the body. She had staged the body for dumping...but she needed John gone because getting the body to the car would be too noisy. But John did what he should have done, searched the house and made her call 911..i think it was during this time before the police arrived that John realized what really was happening. If John had been involved, the body would have been dumped before the police were called. THis is just my opinion...but i don't believe there was an intruder.
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This is an interesting thought. I had always felt that Patsy would never have wanted to dump JR anywhere outside the house, but I suppose in her desperation she may have thought about it.
THen again, the "perfect little beauty queen" wouldn't have looked quite so perfect in her open coffin if she'd been gnawed on a bit. She may not have been found so quickly, and Patsy couldn't very well lead LE to the body.
Patsy may have had the thought to dump her outside, but I feel in the end, she just couldn't do it.
JR had to have known were JB's body was; he may even have put her in there, as I believe the presence of his shirt fibers INSIDE her panties links him to the staging. He also made a beeline for the wineceller when Arndt told him to have a look around. At this point, Det. Arndt was still thinking this was a kidnapping, but she has said even she was surprised how quickly JR ran to the basement and "found" JB. She had expected him to go upstairs and look around her room- as Arndt told him to look for anything that was missing, out of place, etc. Clothes, a favorite toy, etc.
 
vlpate said:
I didn't mean you, as in the poster, I meant you in general. There are so many inconsistencies and outright fabrications I would have to spend hours disputing it. Funny the author did not take credit for the blog.
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That's kinda the point of posting the link. To discuss what is true, what is not and to open a discussion on the parts we don't know if they are true or not. If you don't want to take hours to share what you found to be true or not that's fine but some may. I work 130hrs a week but my plan is to take each statement one at a time and look into them and then post what I find as I find it. I do not agree that the whole thing is baseless. I will say some are off the wall and not worthy of looking into i.e mind control. But we can try to sort out the rest. I think its an interesting read and would love to see fellow WS's confirm and dispute the info. That's how we share info. Unfortunately there are no transcripts to read. The investigation isn't completely out there for us all so its a way to try and sleuth out what we can. I just don't want to take PMPT as my only source.
If you have any links to anything that can point me towards obtaining more info I'd love it if you shared them since I struggle finding enough on my own to get a proper story from this case.

And if you can find the time I wish you would point out some of the fabrications that you know to be false. I love learning and being directed in the right direction. By just saying fabrications it points me nowhere. You're help on rebutting what you know can save me some research time by having me go after the rest.
 
erinleigh said:
I work 130hrs a week but my plan is to take each statement one at a time and look into them and then post what I find as I find it. I do not agree that the whole thing is baseless.
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Holy ***** you work too much.

Mikebr said:
I think Patsy did it. Not sure why..probably some abuse that went too far. The note was clearly written by someone who had intimate knowledge of the family and in my opinion was written to get John out of the house. It tells him to go to the bank..and i believe if he had, Patsy would have dumped the body. She had staged the body for dumping...but she needed John gone because getting the body to the car would be too noisy. But John did what he should have done, searched the house and made her call 911..i think it was during this time before the police arrived that John realized what really was happening. If John had been involved, the body would have been dumped before the police were called. THis is just my opinion...but i don't believe there was an intruder.
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Very interesting theory, great first post.
 
jeeps said:
Holy ***** you work too much.



Very interesting theory, great first post.
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I came to this theory as i read the note in 1997....it sounds like the writer is begging john to leave and not call the police...over and over. The writer is not tough or sophisticated in crime but wants to sound that way...i always hear Patsy when i read it. And i can see John scrambling around the house and then at some point realizing that none of it makes sense..and perhaps he heard patsy voice in that letter too. Perhaps she convinced him Burke was involved though I do not think he was, or perhaps he just protected what was left of his family. Patsy would have struggled with the body and needed John out of that house. If they both were involved the body would have been left along some road and then the 911 call would be made. It's even possible John never knew the whole story as he searched the house..just suspected his wife..then when he found Jon Benet his reaction was real..Not sure why people are trying to clear the parents based on a miniscule dna..that could be from some unrelated source or contact.
 
Interesting theory. I like it. It seems you put some thought into it. Do you believe patsy acted alone or do u think there was someone else in the house that night? I believe patsy was heavily involved but I get caught up in thinking there may have been someone in the house with her. The thought of her not wanting to or being able too remove JonBenet's body rings true.

Thanks for posting. Hope to see more from you!

And yes to whoever I said I work to much has my full agreement!! Luckily I work from home so that helps but I'm forever exhausted but I always keep this site running behind the work so I can check in. I just don't have much time to full on sleuth so I love reading what other WS's have to say on this case. My posts are mostly opinions unfortunately.
 
erinleigh said:
Interesting theory. I like it. It seems you put some thought into it. Do you believe patsy acted alone or do u think there was someone else in the house that night?
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I can't get past the note, so yes i think Patsy acted alone. I think Patsy was a bit off in the head. She might have been addicted to prescription meds left over from her first bout with cancer. I don't think another person, especially John would allow that rambling letter to be left. The writer mentions the amount the received on his bonus 118k i think. And then tells him to go to the bank and get it out of your account..how would or why would a kidnapper know or care where he got the money? There is very strange language used..and perhaps she knew 118k was available in their bank acct because it had not been moved to an investment type acct yet. So perhaps she did not want it to be a ransom he could not just go withdraw meaning leave the house without too much trouble. A real note would say "we have your daughter if you want to see her again we want 2 million dollars. don't call the police or we will kill her. We will contact you to tell you where to bring the money." end of story. Real short to the point. We know the note was part of a staging..and a pervert intruder would not have written it in the house. Staging of a murdered child is usually done by the parent or another adult who has regular access. strangers don't need to stage. Maybe the police now know the entire story off the record, but since Patsy died they will never tell us.
 
what are your thoughts on the LISTEN CAREFULLY!!! some people think someone started dictating to her and told her to listen carefully but she wrote that part. then left to her own devices she started the mass ramblings. what was the S.B.T.C. supposed to mean? i agree that note is pure patsy but i can see where some would think maybe someone did attempt to dictate but then perhaps went on to do staging or something else. it baffles me after reading the note and comparing the writing that she was only a "possibility and couldn't be excluded" it really makes you wonder about the investigation. how in the world did patsy get away with never being charged? high powered friends or the fact that the Ramsey's lawyered up so quickly?
i wonder if patsy knew her daughter was being molested and allowed it. maybe that night her and the molester went to far. or maybe she left her daughter alone in the basement with the molester and then when she realized what happened she had to begin the staging so she wouldn't get caught for allowing the molestation? could pasty really be able to do this all on her own? another part of me thinks John was involved in the coverup as well. his reactions seem off. he is the one who found the body. at what point if any do you think John became involved? in staging or none of it but eventually came to believe it was his wife but never spoke up?
i like hearing your thoughts because honestly i never considered the fact that patsy wrote the note as a way to get john out of the house. it is a good theory and as possible as any of the other theory's that have been offered. this case is so baffling. the sad part is the truth will never be known. patsy is dead and no one else is talking. i always wonder if Burke will speak out if he outlives his father. i doubt it but he knows something. he was home that night and kids have a way of overhearing things they think their parents don't know they heard.
in your post that stated you think it was pasty in a possible abuse that went to far...did you mean physical abuse or sexual abuse? do you entertain the idea that JonBenet was sexually abused in any way?
for me i feel there was sexual abuse in the family. the bleaching of JonBenet's hair for for the overly mature pagents -i know a lot of parent go to far in pagents but there seemed to be something sad in JonBenets eyes-like she saw and experienced too much. was patsy willing to go so far to win she offered sexual favors for it? the bedwetting, the sleeping in Burke's room (was it trying to seek protection?), the multiple trips to the dr, the yeast infections...i cant put my finger on one reason, its just a feeling i get. the only thing i feel pretty certain of is that patsy was in this deep. whatever happened to poor JonBenet patsy knew. i just cant buy her version of events.
 
erinleigh said:
what are your thoughts on the LISTEN CAREFULLY!!! some people think someone started dictating to her and told her to listen carefully but she wrote that part. then left to her own devices she started the mass ramblings. what was the S.B.T.C. supposed to mean? i agree that note is pure patsy but i can see where some would think maybe someone did attempt to dictate but then perhaps went on to do staging or something else. it baffles me after reading the note and comparing the writing that she was only a "possibility and couldn't be excluded" it really makes you wonder about the investigation. how in the world did patsy get away with never being charged? high powered friends or the fact that the Ramsey's lawyered up so quickly?
i wonder if patsy knew her daughter was being molested and allowed it. maybe that night her and the molester went to far. or maybe she left her daughter alone in the basement with the molester and then when she realized what happened she had to begin the staging so she wouldn't get caught for allowing the molestation? could pasty really be able to do this all on her own? another part of me thinks John was involved in the coverup as well. his reactions seem off. he is the one who found the body. at what point if any do you think John became involved? in staging or none of it but eventually came to believe it was his wife but never spoke up?
i like hearing your thoughts because honestly i never considered the fact that patsy wrote the note as a way to get john out of the house. it is a good theory and as possible as any of the other theory's that have been offered. this case is so baffling. the sad part is the truth will never be known. patsy is dead and no one else is talking. i always wonder if Burke will speak out if he outlives his father. i doubt it but he knows something. he was home that night and kids have a way of overhearing things they think their parents don't know they heard.
in your post that stated you think it was pasty in a possible abuse that went to far...did you mean physical abuse or sexual abuse? do you entertain the idea that JonBenet was sexually abused in any way?
for me i feel there was sexual abuse in the family. the bleaching of JonBenet's hair for for the overly mature pagents -i know a lot of parent go to far in pagents but there seemed to be something sad in JonBenets eyes-like she saw and experienced too much. was patsy willing to go so far to win she offered sexual favors for it? the bedwetting, the sleeping in Burke's room (was it trying to seek protection?), the multiple trips to the dr, the yeast infections...i cant put my finger on one reason, its just a feeling i get. the only thing i feel pretty certain of is that patsy was in this deep. whatever happened to poor JonBenet patsy knew. i just cant buy her version of events.
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erinleigh,
JonBenet was molested prior to being killed. The Coroner said so in his verbatim remarks to Det. Arndt. Sexual contact and digital penetration were his words. And BPD reckon there was chronic abuse due to the internal physical evidence.

It appears to be a sexually motivated homicide with violence inflicted upon JonBenet, after she was molested!

To use the description accident is to prejudge the evidence. It looks as if someone, whilst abusing JonBenet, lost it. Then proceeded to a coverup by staging an abduction scenario.


.
 
UKGuy said:
erinleigh,
JonBenet was molested prior to being killed. The Coroner said so in his verbatim remarks to Det. Arndt. Sexual contact and digital penetration were his words. And BPD reckon there was chronic abuse due to the internal physical evidence.

It appears to be a sexually motivated homicide with violence inflicted upon JonBenet, after she was molested!

To use the description accident is to prejudge the evidence. It looks as if someone, whilst abusing JonBenet, lost it. Then proceeded to a coverup by staging an abduction scenario.


.
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For a sexually motivated homicide, there was very little sex involved. If you've ever seen the damage done to a six year old victim of rape, you would see the sexual aspect of the JBR case was amateur and the least of the motivations for the stranulation, head bashing, and 3 page ransom note....

Had the perp wanted her to cooperate so badly that he/she bashed her over the head and duct taped her mouth, why didn't he/she then get what he wanted...surely it wasn't mere digital penetration and a pin prick with the paint brush? No semen was found on or around her, none. No dna INSIDE her, anywhere inside her.

IMO, this was definitely not a sexually motivated homicide. Mr. Wecht is selling books and his theory is selling - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
erinleigh said:
That's kinda the point of posting the link. To discuss what is true, what is not and to open a discussion on the parts we don't know if they are true or not. If you don't want to take hours to share what you found to be true or not that's fine but some may. I work 130hrs a week but my plan is to take each statement one at a time and look into them and then post what I find as I find it. I do not agree that the whole thing is baseless. I will say some are off the wall and not worthy of looking into i.e mind control. But we can try to sort out the rest. I think its an interesting read and would love to see fellow WS's confirm and dispute the info. That's how we share info. Unfortunately there are no transcripts to read. The investigation isn't completely out there for us all so its a way to try and sleuth out what we can. I just don't want to take PMPT as my only source.
If you have any links to anything that can point me towards obtaining more info I'd love it if you shared them since I struggle finding enough on my own to get a proper story from this case.

And if you can find the time I wish you would point out some of the fabrications that you know to be false. I love learning and being directed in the right direction. By just saying fabrications it points me nowhere. You're help on rebutting what you know can save me some research time by having me go after the rest.
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The link is no longer working. www.acandryrose.com and the archives here and at forumsforjustice.com have tons of information.
 
Mikebr said:
I think Patsy did it. Not sure why..probably some abuse that went too far. The note was clearly written by someone who had intimate knowledge of the family and in my opinion was written to get John out of the house. It tells him to go to the bank..and i believe if he had, Patsy would have dumped the body. She had staged the body for dumping...but she needed John gone because getting the body to the car would be too noisy. But John did what he should have done, searched the house and made her call 911..i think it was during this time before the police arrived that John realized what really was happening. If John had been involved, the body would have been dumped before the police were called. THis is just my opinion...but i don't believe there was an intruder.
Click to expand...

Yes, this makes perfect sense and it goes back to JBR having an accident and it was the straw that broke Patsy's crazy stick. A friend of mine was given adderol (sp), after she finished chemotherapy and given an all clear - she was so exhausted all the time she had no quality of life from the bouts with chemo. The adderal gave her a lot of energy, but when they wore off she was dead tired again.

Anyway, I totally think your theory holds a lot of water, but it is never discussed. I remember, years ago, reading about John acting so nervous and disappearing that day. I mean, why would he look for JonBenet twice if he already Maybe he started waking up that day it all started hitting him....

This theory has always been in the back of my mind...in fact, I was just thinking about it a few nights ago and would love to have you expound, based on what we know of the evidence!
 
vlpate said:
For a sexually motivated homicide, there was very little sex involved. If you've ever seen the damage done to a six year old victim of rape, you would see the sexual aspect of the JBR case was amateur and the least of the motivations for the stranulation, head bashing, and 3 page ransom note....

Had the perp wanted her to cooperate so badly that he/she bashed her over the head and duct taped her mouth, why didn't he/she then get what he wanted...surely it wasn't mere digital penetration and a pin prick with the paint brush? No semen was found on or around her, none. No dna INSIDE her, anywhere inside her.

IMO, this was definitely not a sexually motivated homicide. Mr. Wecht is selling books and his theory is selling - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Click to expand...

vlpate,
Well those are the current facts. The only point of contention is the sequence of events. That is was the molestation and violence coterminous?

Although it patently cannot be answered definitively on a discussion board. It does appear JonBenet was sexually molested then violently assaulted.

surely it wasn't mere digital penetration and a pin prick with the paint brush? No semen was found on or around her, none. No dna INSIDE her, anywhere inside her.
Click to expand...
I hear what you say. I understand your scepticism, but you have to start somewhere and for me its JonBenet's death was a sexually motivated homicide.

Your remarks regarding the lack of forensic evidence , semen etc, are actually consistent with what I have outlined.


.
 
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