Are the Ramseys involved or not?

Holdontoyourhat · Mar 18, 2009

Ames said:
Yeah, I am a little bit sick of playing mind games.

Then you'll maybe barf after this one:

A judge is deciding on a mans' sentence, either hanging or beheading. The judge tells the man to say something. If what he says is found to be a lie, he will be hanged. If its is found to be true, he will be beheaded. The man makes his statement. The judge then sets the man free.

What did he say?

Ames · Mar 18, 2009

Holdontoyourhat said:
Then you'll maybe barf after this one:

A judge is deciding on a mans' sentence, either hanging or beheading. The judge tells the man to say something. If what he says is found to be a lie, he will be hanged. If its is found to be true, he will be beheaded. The man makes his statement. The judge then sets the man free.

What did he say?

LOL...it's way to late for that. If a judge told me to say "something"...I would say the word "something". I KNOW that's not right though. Please...do tell. All of this thinking is giving me a headache...LOL

Holdontoyourhat · Mar 18, 2009

Ames said:
LOL...it's way to late for that. If a judge told me to say "something"...I would say the word "something".

The man says "I will be hanged".

Judge can't hang him because that would be 'true' and he should've been beheaded for true. Judge can't behead him because that would be 'lie' and he should've been hanged for lie. Only alternative was to set him free.

BBB167893 · Mar 18, 2009

Tadpole12 said:
Hey SD. TY for the background info on Lacy ....
ya I have yet to get there, a decades worth of power dynamic between the PB and DA office. I've read snippets here and there ....

Snippets? You don't know the half of it.

handwriting analysis is fascinating!http://science.howstuffworks.com/handwriting-analysis.htm

Thinking about the limitations of the analysis of the note, re simulation, how use of the felt tip pen limited the use of certain criteria of analysis ....

Yes, it has been stated that the use of a felt-tip pen really messed them up.

Holdontoyourhat · Mar 19, 2009

Tadpole12 said:
ya sure Hotyh .... the note and scene is the calling card ..... I get the rough premise, although your suggested arian affectation within perps behaviour ...... kinda pushing the envelope for me .....

but I don't mind suspending my disbelief .... for the IDI SFF members.

Pushing the envelope? Thats when you steer away blindly from hard evidence (ransom note) without more than a passing glance. Call it 'bogus' and forget about it. Thats pushing the investigative envelope, I think.

For those interested, beheading is one form of execution. Immediate execution is the same thing as 'on the spot' execution, or execution without a trial.

People really involved in this activity: military commanders, dictators, terrorists or extremists, kings, queens, and judges.

Keeping in mind, tad, that beheading a child as a written threat is truly unique in the annals of crime. RDI casts it out the window by default.

Tadpole12 · Mar 19, 2009

Holdontoyourhat said:
Then you'll maybe barf after this one:

A judge is deciding on a mans' sentence, either hanging or beheading. The judge tells the man to say something. If what he says is found to be a lie, he will be hanged. If its is found to be true, he will be beheaded. The man makes his statement. The judge then sets the man free.

What did he say?

nothing. On the advise of his lawyers?

So ... ya .... for sure it's hard to get my mind around your SSF IDI literal interpretation of the rn and crime. And as another poster has mentioned it is unique ...

source: online posters:
I've read the NK sex ring scenario, 2 IDI scenarios which resulted in suits, the IDI satanists, and the local burglar scenarios. Lots of known IDI scenarios asscociated the the Ramsey's inner circle.

The biggest stretch I could make would be JR 'inside job' scenario, but then how to consider the rn? still a ruse?

The professional IDI scenarios vary in gender, a vendetta minded female accounts for handwriting style and the 'maternal' nature of the 'staging' and the male profiles encompass all that is violent and perverted: ranging from the criminal element to a college educated man.

Interesting that in the SSF scenario, the perps have a moral compass.....

I guess the commonality of all the IDI scenarios would be that the perp is pedophile? For who else could perform those acts on that poor child?

I just can't reconcile your terrorists with the gruesome crime. How do you?

Tadpole12 · Mar 19, 2009

Holdontoyourhat said:
Pushing the envelope? Thats when you steer away blindly from hard evidence (ransom note) without more than a passing glance. Call it 'bogus' and forget about it. Thats pushing the investigative envelope, I think.

For those interested, beheading is one form of execution. Immediate execution is the same thing as 'on the spot' execution, or execution without a trial.

People really involved in this activity: military commanders, dictators, terrorists or extremists, kings, queens, and judges.

Keeping in mind, tad, that beheading a child as a written threat is truly unique in the annals of crime. RDI casts it out the window by default.

Hey Hotyh. - "Immediate execution is the same thing as 'on the spot' execution, or execution without a trial."

Ya that's interesting, but it just makes me think about possible references to movies.

Unique in the annals of crime ... ya. being the exception to every probalibility. While ST's book is based on probabilities and his experience,
CW's book the autopsy revealed it's truths to him? Is the dna evidence the directive?

Will have to see what happens next.

Holdontoyourhat · Mar 19, 2009

Tadpole12 said:
Hey Hotyh. - "Immediate execution is the same thing as 'on the spot' execution, or execution without a trial."

Ya that's interesting, but it just makes me think about possible references to movies.

Unique in the annals of crime ... ya. being the exception to every probalibility. While ST's book is based on probabilities and his experience,
CW's book the autopsy revealed it's truths to him? Is the dna evidence the directive?

Will have to see what happens next.

I'd take the 'Victory!' expression, and note that military commanders can execute on the spot, and 'tomorrow will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested' seems like something a leader says, not a ransom extortionist.

I'd go with the military commander type, for sure. Even VanZandt thought it 'points to an author used to exerting authority over others'

We'll see what happens next.

Sophie · Mar 19, 2009

Holdontoyourhat said:
Pushing the envelope? Thats when you steer away blindly from hard evidence (ransom note) without more than a passing glance. Call it 'bogus' and forget about it. Thats pushing the investigative envelope, I think.

For those interested, beheading is one form of execution. Immediate execution is the same thing as 'on the spot' execution, or execution without a trial.

People really involved in this activity: military commanders, dictators, terrorists or extremists, kings, queens, and judges.

Keeping in mind, tad, that beheading a child as a written threat is truly unique in the annals of crime. RDI casts it out the window by default.

Kings and queens? I daresay there are some absolute monarchs I'm overlooking but QE2 and her European cousins have nothing to do with beheadings and hangings, capital punishment being outlawed in the EU, and European monarchs doing very little other than waving at people from cars given that their constitutional powers are barely even titular any more. I'm not sure about Far Eastern monarchies and how much power they retain...

More to the point, the beheading thing was an unusual addition but, since there was no actual attempt to decapitate JBR, I'd be more inclined to attribute the use of the word to a heightened sense of drama than to someone who actually was familiar with decapitation as part of their 'job' function. I'd have to assume that someone in the military or paramilitary or whatever would have taken the proper tools and done a more 'professional' job than clouting her over the head and and strangling her with a fairly primitive ligature.

Ames · Mar 19, 2009

Holdontoyourhat said:
The man says "I will be hanged".

Judge can't hang him because that would be 'true' and he should've been beheaded for true. Judge can't behead him because that would be 'lie' and he should've been hanged for lie. Only alternative was to set him free.

WOW! Did you come up with that one on your on??

Ames · Mar 19, 2009

SuperDave said:
Snippets? You don't know the half of it.

Yes, it has been stated that the use of a felt-tip pen really messed them up.

Speaking of that felt tip pen. I have said this many, many, MANY times before. BUT...here I go again...when Patsy was asked for a sample of her handwriting by writing the words to the RN, did she use the same Sharpie pen that the "actual" RN author used? Does that make a difference? Why...yes...glad you asked. Because Sharpie's flatten with use. A brand new Sharpie will write better than one that is all squished down and flattened. IOW..if the Sharpie that was used to write the actual RN with had been used before, and the pen that Patsy used for her SAMPLE was new...then the tips would have been different, AND HENCE...the handwriting is going to look "somewhat" different. We know that there were ALOT, of similarities between the actual RN, and Patsy's SAMPLE RN...but, I wonder how many MORE similarities would there have been if the same pen had of been used? My guess is, that the actual pen from the night of the murder, was in an evidence room somewhere.

BBB167893 · Mar 19, 2009

Holdontoyourhat said:
Pushing the envelope? Thats when you steer away blindly from hard evidence (ransom note) without more than a passing glance. Call it 'bogus' and forget about it. Thats pushing the investigative envelope, I think.

Give me a break. Ron Walker knew it was phony the minute he laid eyes on it.

For those interested, beheading is one form of execution. Immediate execution is the same thing as 'on the spot' execution, or execution without a trial.

People really involved in this activity: military commanders, dictators, terrorists or extremists, kings, queens, and judges.

That would have been my next choice. (Although, I'm not sure I'd pursue the "kings and queens" bit too much were I in your position.)

Keeping in mind, tad, that beheading a child as a written threat is truly unique in the annals of crime. RDI casts it out the window by default.

That's YOUR characterization of it. If you knew as much about RDI as you claim...well, what's the point?

BBB167893 · Mar 19, 2009

Sophie said:
Kings and queens? I daresay there are some absolute monarchs I'm overlooking but QE2 and her European cousins have nothing to do with beheadings and hangings, capital punishment being outlawed in the EU, and European monarchs doing very little other than waving at people from cars given that their constitutional powers are barely even titular any more. I'm not sure about Far Eastern monarchies and how much power they retain...

To my knowledge, Sophie, there's only one absolutist monarchy which beheads people without trial, and that's Saudi Arabia.

BUT, I have to admit, there was something in what he said that got to me: the part about a leader telling the "men," to be rested to prepare for the next day. I can imagine a general saying that before a big mission. Heck, no need to imagine it! I was a Boy Scout. Our Scoutmaster told us that from time to time.

But then, JR was in the Navy and BR was also a Boy Scout. OOPS!

More to the point, the beheading thing was an unusual addition but, since there was no actual attempt to decapitate JBR, I'd be more inclined to attribute the use of the word to a heightened sense of drama than to someone who actually was familiar with decapitation as part of their 'job' function.

That's what I keep trying to tell him!

I'd have to assume that someone in the military or paramilitary or whatever would have taken the proper tools and done a more 'professional' job than clouting her over the head and and strangling her with a fairly primitive ligature.

EXACTLY! Those guys are PROFESSIONAL killers! Whoever did this...it was amateur night. You could tell.

Tadpole12 · Mar 19, 2009

Holdontoyourhat said:
I'd take the 'Victory!' expression, and note that military commanders can execute on the spot, and 'tomorrow will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested' seems like something a leader says, not a ransom extortionist.

I'd go with the military commander type, for sure. Even thought it 'points to an author used to exerting authority over others'

We'll see what happens next.

beheading violent fantasy: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&e...sult&cd=1&q=beheading+violent+fantasy&spell=1

Man Decapitated 'Beheaded' aboard Greyhound bus
http://www.nationalterroralert.com/...capited-beheaded-aboard-greyhound-bus-canada/

Best "Beheading/Extreme Violence titles: http://hungarian.imdb.de/keyword/beheading/extreme-violence/

(Dead II, cult classic, not stop beheading in film.)

Tadpole12 · Mar 19, 2009

Ames said:
Speaking of that felt tip pen. I have said this many, many, MANY times before. BUT...here I go again...when Patsy was asked for a sample of her handwriting by writing the words to the RN, did she use the same Sharpie pen that the "actual" RN author used? Does that make a difference? Why...yes...glad you asked. Because Sharpie's flatten with use. A brand new Sharpie will write better than one that is all squished down and flattened. IOW..if the Sharpie that was used to write the actual RN with had been used before, and the pen that Patsy used for her SAMPLE was new...then the tips would have been different, AND HENCE...the handwriting is going to look "somewhat" different. We know that there were ALOT, of similarities between the actual RN, and Patsy's SAMPLE RN...but, I wonder how many MORE similarities would there have been if the same pen had of been used? My guess is, that the actual pen from the night of the murder, was in an evidence room somewhere.

Ty for the info SD.

Right. Something to consider. How pen itself affected the hand writing analysis. How PR changing her handwriting post crime could affect the results.

"FISH (Forensic Information System for Handwriting) system, which allows examiners to scan in handwritten documents and digitize the comparison process, may speed up the process of general acceptance of handwriting analysis as a science and as expert evidence in court. "
Maybe future analysis will change PR results (4.5) to a different position in the scale.

BBB167893 · Mar 19, 2009

Tadpole12 said:
Ty for the info SD.

Right. Something to consider. How pen itself affected the hand writing analysis. How PR changing her handwriting post crime could affect the results.

"FISH (Forensic Information System for Handwriting) system, which allows examiners to scan in handwritten documents and digitize the comparison process, may speed up the process of general acceptance of handwriting analysis as a science and as expert evidence in court. "
Maybe future analysis will change PR results (4.5) to a different position in the scale.

FISH- I've heard of it.

I only have one quibble with what you say, Tadpole: there IS no 1-5 scale. That was just something the mercenaries JR hired dreamed up.

Holdontoyourhat · Mar 19, 2009

Tadpole12 said:
Ty for the info SD.

Right. Something to consider. How pen itself affected the hand writing analysis. How PR changing her handwriting post crime could affect the results.

"FISH (Forensic Information System for Handwriting) system, which allows examiners to scan in handwritten documents and digitize the comparison process, may speed up the process of general acceptance of handwriting analysis as a science and as expert evidence in court. "
Maybe future analysis will change PR results (4.5) to a different position in the scale.

4.5 meaning...what?

Tadpole12 · Mar 19, 2009

only have one quibble with what you say, Tadpole: there IS no 1-5 scale. That was just something the mercenaries JR hired dreamed up. - SD

Ty SD, for the insight.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Patsy+Ramsey+as+RN+Author

testimony of Alex Hunter -- A. I have. Q. --that is part of Defendant's Exhibit 9; have you not? A. Yes. Q. And you understand that from Alex Hunter's perspective, the sum total of the handwriting analysis done by the investigation on Patsy Ramsey was that she was somewhere at about a 4.5 on a 1 to 5 scale, with 5 being elimination. A. (Nods head). Q. Do you not, sir? A. That's what he says. Q. Thus, that from Alex Hunter's perspective, Patsy Ramsey was not eliminated by the experts chosen by the district attorney, but she was close to elimination; correct? A. That's what he says, yes."

4.5 meaning...what? - Hotyh

Patsy Ramsey Statement. From Larry King Live (3/28/2000): "KING: Is your handwriting cleared, both of you? P. RAMSEY: John's definitively was cleared. And I scored a 4.5 out of 5. Five is definitely no match, and it just..." CNN RUSH transcript (html). On Larry King Live (4/14/2000), Steve Thomas stated: "Well, they're saying that she scored a numerical scale of 4 1/2, but that apparently is from their own defense handwriting experts."

Ya, trying to grasp all the material on line ..... I guess I was thinking of the CBI analysis rather than AH assessment.

But my basic point is that the rn may be reanalysised and change PR status.

Holdontoyourhat · Mar 19, 2009

Tadpole12 said:
only have one quibble with what you say, Tadpole: there IS no 1-5 scale. That was just something the mercenaries JR hired dreamed up. - SD

Ty SD, for the insight.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Patsy+Ramsey+as+RN+Author

testimony of Alex Hunter -- A. I have. Q. --that is part of Defendant's Exhibit 9; have you not? A. Yes. Q. And you understand that from Alex Hunter's perspective, the sum total of the handwriting analysis done by the investigation on Patsy Ramsey was that she was somewhere at about a 4.5 on a 1 to 5 scale, with 5 being elimination. A. (Nods head). Q. Do you not, sir? A. That's what he says. Q. Thus, that from Alex Hunter's perspective, Patsy Ramsey was not eliminated by the experts chosen by the district attorney, but she was close to elimination; correct? A. That's what he says, yes."

4.5 meaning...what? - Hotyh

Patsy Ramsey Statement. From Larry King Live (3/28/2000): "KING: Is your handwriting cleared, both of you? P. RAMSEY: John's definitively was cleared. And I scored a 4.5 out of 5. Five is definitely no match, and it just..." CNN RUSH transcript (html). On Larry King Live (4/14/2000), Steve Thomas stated: "Well, they're saying that she scored a numerical scale of 4 1/2, but that apparently is from their own defense handwriting experts."

Ya, trying to grasp all the material on line ..... I guess I was thinking of the CBI analysis rather than AH assessment.

But my basic point is that the rn may be reanalysised and change PR status.

These two excerpts seem to contradict one another.

The first describes results from the DA's hired expert, the 2nd describes results from R defense experts. Which expert is the 4.5 from?

Holdontoyourhat · Mar 19, 2009

SuperDave said:
Give me a break. Ron Walker knew it was phony the minute he laid eyes on it.

What do you say after it is discovered the RN author is in fact an authority figure or commander from a small foreign faction who believes in immediate executions?

Oops?

Are the Ramseys involved or not?

Are the Ramseys involved or not?

The Ramseys are somehow involved in the crime and/or cover-up

The Ramseys are not involved at all in the crime or cover-up

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