Forensic Botany

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DotsEyes said:
I still want to know how someone can date the day of death to the 18th through either botany or entomology. Was this just another NG conclusion jumping episode?

Seem that they can get to a time FRAME which includes the 18th, but to get the 18th specifically? How? Anyone?
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DotsEyes: Just an FYI, in case you missed NG last night, she had a botanist on who did take time to explain it(and NG didn't even interrupt him!). He also said alittle about the bugs/insects. I'll see if I can find a NG link for you. MOO
 
OK, now I am going another direction with this and may sound a little off.

Back in the beginning of the case Cindy had either moved one of her plants, shrubs, REMOVED BAMBOO! and other. July 4th weekend they had done some yard work and moved a hibiscus plant? And the bamboo. When the report from the forensic botany was discussed yesterday I started doing some searching on past interviews and came with this assumption. I feel that the Botnist found Casey's finger prints on the duct tape, Casey's hair and saliva on the duct tape, possible vomit from Caylee as well due to the over dose of some type of sedative (SIC :behindbar), dirt from the Anthony's yard, pavers from the Anthony's yard, bugs from the Anthony's yard, ticks/fleas from the Anthony's dog's, pool sand from the Anthony's yard, sand from Caylee's sand box from the Anthony's yard, mulch, Casey's hair, traces of pesticides from the Anthony's yard and strong feeling that they might of also found some bamboo, if you recall the big stink back in the beginning about the shovel being borrowed was because of the bamboo. They found roots growing through Caylee's skull which leads me to assume that Casey may had planted some bamboo where the remains were so that they could not be detected, it grows like crazy and will hide a lot. Could there be bambo roots also in the skull? I have not be over to look at the crime scene photos yet to see if there is any bamboo out there. Also, the white items that were shown in the crime scene pictures, could they be pavers that were used to hold the body down? Question for Anyone that goes out there to check on the memorial, is there bamboo??? Please share...Thanks in advance.
 
LP made reference to terpenes. I had never heard that word before so I looked it up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diterpenes

Now IIRC Padilla was saying if they found the terpenes in the trunk then that would show she was not parked on the street but had driven close to the dump site.

Can terpenes be shown to be exclusive to one area? I really don't understand what he is saying or what this means. I am posting it here instead of another thread because it would fall under the botany catagory.
 
Kat said:
LP made reference to terpenes. I had never heard that word before so I looked it up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diterpenes

Now IIRC Padilla was saying if they found the terpenes in the trunk then that would show she was not parked on the street but had driven close to the dump site.

Can terpenes be shown to be exclusive to one area? I really don't understand what he is saying or what this means. I am posting it here instead of another thread because it would fall under the botany catagory.
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OK...interesting...and thanks for the info & link. I don't understand how this would PROVE her proximity of parking near the dump site...:confused: The example I think of is sap of pine (e.g. pine tar) and I would expect different species to have some level of differentiation, but, still...don't get the connection to proximity to dump scene.

FWIW, there were some scratches on the EXTERIOR of her car near the trunk area (I emphasize exterior because very early in the case a poster didn't clarify and had everyone in a tizzy thinkin' Caylee had scratched the interior of the trunk whilst still alive :frown:). The scratches are spelled out in the original doc dump by the officer that pics up the car for forensics. Early on it was speculated this meant she prolly pulled close to the dump site (before we knew where) in order to gain some cover for removing the body from the trunk.
 
Just wanted to make mention that Jessica D. on NG last night mentioned that some of the bones had "grass" growing through or around them. I heard the word "grass". Mind you, I don't know if she was told "grass" by her sources or just used that word instead of "vegetation".
 
Thank you for responding BondJamesBond. I took note of this after watching NG last night (09 JAN 09). I went looking on that thread to see if it was discussed but I only saw one or two posts that said suggested that he has discussed the presence of terpenes before.

I know a lot of posters don't put much weight into what LP has to say, but, I for one, usually just can't make sense of what he says, I don't discount it though.

Here is the reference from the NG show:

"PADILLA: Well there, is something else. There is something else. They find terpenes in that car anywhere in the trunk, that`s going to lead them to put the car right at the scene. "

and...

"PADILLA: Well, it`s a residue or a -- that`s given off by certain Florida area and also available in other areas but if they find terpenes, that means that the car wasn`t just up on the roads. It was down in the forest or the weeds or close by. So it`s a situation where there`s no doubt they already know if they have them or they don`t have them. But if they have them that puts the car real close to the scene, rather than just out on the road..."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0901/09/ng.01.html

I just thought it was interesting to note because it might/might not prove to be a link back to KC. I'm not much of a sleuth but I do remember cases (watched on tv) where the crime was solved with the help of plant matter, seeds, and residues from plants and trees.
 
Theonly1 said:
Just wanted to make mention that Jessica D. on NG last night mentioned that some of the bones had "grass" growing through or around them. I heard the word "grass". Mind you, I don't know if she was told "grass" by her sources or just used that word instead of "vegetation".
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Yes, Jessica D. may have been just speaking like a layperson when she said grass or she may have quoted her sources accurately, not sure. However, If there really was grass, was it a native grass found throughout that specific wooded area, or was it a transplant from the A's yard? Don't you wish we had more info? No need to answer, I know what we'd all say.
 
I saw a case on TV very recently were the two stepkids disappeared while mom was at work and "stepdad" was at home with them. The police couldn't find any signs of foul play but they did take stepdad's clothes from that day. They found seeds in the legs of the jeans, a forensic botanist combed the property that the stepdad claimed he had been working and could not find that plant, the bodies were not found for months, the forensic botanist was able to locate the source of the seeds at the burial site and tie them together genetically.
 
After the body discovery, when they got the search warrant for the house, I don't remember them spending very much if any time in the yard did they?

Whatever they found at the scene sent them running to the house within hours - they knew exactly what they were looking for it would seem to me. I just don't see them running to the house with a search warrant for plants or turpenes or whatever.

IMO it was clothing they were looking for (they took everything from Caylee's closet and shoes and stuff from KC's closet if I remember from somewhere). Seems to me they were looking for something inside the house - and that the botanical evidence wasn't the big case breaker~am I wrong? Of course, just speculation on my part.

Maybe they collected this botanical evidence to compare with what they already have from the yard the first search to help connect?
 
I'm not sure that the botanical finds have anything to do with whatever compelled them from the closing of the scene to reenter the A's home with another search warrant.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that perhaps the search and the botany evidence are two different things? I don't know.
 
MaryAnn said:
Didn't LP say they found "pavers" 10 feet from Caylee's remains? They could easily match those up to the ones in the A's yard.
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Hi MaryAnn, I had the same thought, remembering we learned they found a couple of pavers about 10' from the remains - actually I thought it said 15', but that is pretty close.

MADJGNLAW's post got me thinking {thanks for that wonderful post MAD ;}. and I could easily envision plant seeds being attached or clinging to concrete. Caught in a spider web as you would find on the underside of the paver. Here in the NW if one lifted up a paver that had been there for awhile, you would see lots of bug activity and stuff attached to the concrete which is very porous.

I think there was a wealth of evidence taken from the crime disposal site that matched up to the A's place, and their taking flash bulb photos in the yard immediately after her remains were found says they knew right away something matched from that yard and they knew what it was.

The possible movement of seeds with the accoutrements to the remains findings was just a big bonus imo.



ETA:
A bit OT for this thread, but I think the spot where they found the pavers is probably closer to the original spot the bag was put, and the bag traveled with the movement of water to a spot between 10 to 15 feet away from there.

But any seeds that were on the pavers could have easily dropped off into the bag and sprouted, to grow thru the bones, like the rib cage. Plants will grow with very little light. They just aren't green, but pale yellow.
 
scandi said:
Hi MaryAnn, I had the same thought, remembering we learned they found a couple of pavers about 10' from the remains - actually I thought it said 15', but that is pretty close.

MADJGNLAW's post got me thinking {thanks for that wonderful post MAD ;}. and I could easily envision plant seeds being attached or clinging to concrete. Caught in a spider web as you would find on the underside of the paver. Here in the NW if one lifted up a paver that had been there for awhile, you would see lots of bug activity and stuff attached to the concrete which is very porous.

I think there was a wealth of evidence taken from the crime disposal site that matched up to the A's place, and their taking flash bulb photos in the yard immediately after her remains were found says they knew right away something matched from that yard and they knew what it was.The possible movement of seeds with the accoutrements to the remains findings was just a big bonus imo.



ETA:
A bit OT for this thread, but I think the spot where they found the pavers is probably closer to the original spot the bag was put, and the bag traveled with the movement of water to a spot between 10 to 15 feet away from there.

But any seeds that were on the pavers could have easily dropped off into the bag and sprouted, to grow thru the bones, like the rib cage. Plants will grow with very little light. They just aren't green, but pale yellow.
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BOLD by me...I remember a reporter stating that the backyard was lit up with all the flashes going off....I looked under the media links that Angel posts and could not find it...
 
One thing I don't get about LP and the turpines - HOW could you get a car down in that brush? From the photos it looks like there would have been no way that a car would have gotten in there.
 
i dont understand why a paver would be put out where a body was dumped.
who wouldt realize that if a body was found the paver could link them... and converesly (if it wasnt put w caylee) who just randomly wanders way int the woods to dump a paver when waste mgmt will pick it up on garbage day??

:waitasec:
 
SL_Zero said:
i dont understand why a paver would be put out where a body was dumped.
who wouldt realize that if a body was found the paver could link them... and converesly (if it wasnt put w caylee) who just randomly wanders way int the woods to dump a paver when waste mgmt will pick it up on garbage day??

:waitasec:
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Casey would have known that area was prone to flooding in the rainy season. Perhaps the paver was placed on top of the bag knowing this. Once the area flooded, gases released during decomp would make the bag want to float, and the bag pulled/tore away from the paver, scattering remains in the process, and drifted 10 or 15 feet and became entangled in vegetation at the final resting place.

eta: We already know Casey wasn't the brightest, which is why it didn't occur to her that the paver would link her to the crime. She never thought she'd get caught.
 
BondJamesBond said:
FWIW, in the Greta interview, Cindy indicated that the hibiscus was moved in order to allow the Rubbermaid storage chest to be scooted back away from the edge of the pool into the corner of the house/porch so that Caylee couldn't climb up on it and fall into the pool.
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Thanks, BondJamesBond. I remember that as well. But still I keep wondering if there was no alternative place for the box. The Anthony's yard looks as if it has been well cared for and someone obviously knows and how, and likes, to garden. Just seem odd they would move the shrub - maybe they were tired of it and figured it was on its own to make it. But it keeps nagging at me.
 
TSPnc said:
BOLD by me...I remember a reporter stating that the backyard was lit up with all the flashes going off....I looked under the media links that Angel posts and could not find it...
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THANK YOU! I'm local too and I don't think this report ever made it to the boards here! I heard it on the news (radio) driving home on the day it occured. If I recall correctly it was the day after LE executed their last search warrant and took stuff out of the A family home. If I recall correctly, the next day about five o'clockish some people were seen entering the A family backyard and then photo flashes were seen by reporters coming from the area of the infamous shed. Reporters speculated that the A family was not home at the time and if I recall correctly they came home and accepted the people in the backyard, or let them in, or something that made the reporters believe the photographers were invited to take the pictures and were there with A family's knowledge. I know this sounds like nonsense but it was being reported "live" at the time. We never heard whether it was LE or PI's or what. If I recall correctly the reporters were going nuts about all the photos being taken of the shed, the flashbulbs repeatedly going off, etc. Apparently, it was getting dark so they had to use the flash.
 
SL_Zero said:
i dont understand why a paver would be put out where a body was dumped.
who wouldt realize that if a body was found the paver could link them... and converesly (if it wasnt put w caylee) who just randomly wanders way int the woods to dump a paver when waste mgmt will pick it up on garbage day??

:waitasec:
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I'm not sure whether or not a paver was found in the location of Caylee's remains but, if one was, perhaps KC put it there because something leaked onto it or stained it??? Just trying to give you a possible answer to your question.
 
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