Conrad Murray trial -Day sixteen.

oceanblueeyes said:

I do understand what you mean but I do not think they worried about his children.

He was upstairs at night while getting treatment. His children would have been sleeping and I bet he did not let them see him until he was fully awake and rested.

Chef Kai said Michael came down from the second floor in the mornings fully dressed so imo they did not even know what Murray was doing.

IMO

Click to expand...

So, you believe that as long as the children did not know why Dr. Murray spent the nights with their father, what was going on in that bedroom was okay?

Well now the children know what was going on. And, I can only wonder how they feel now about what treatment MJ was receiving and that he wanted this enough to hire a doctor exactly for that purpose.
just my O

azwriter said:

So, you believe that as long as the children did not know why Dr. Murray spent the nights with their father, what was going on in that bedroom was okay?

Well now the children know what was going on. And, I can only wonder how they feel now about what treatment MJ was receiving and that he wanted this enough to hire a doctor exactly for that purpose.
just my O

Click to expand...

They were probably already aware that their daddy had difficulty sleeping.

I didnt say it was ok. I said the children were not with MJ when the doctor was with him.

They are probably heartbroken that this man who was to take good care of their father......failed to do so.

IMO

borndem said:

Oh gawd -- his head is gonna get so big, it will need its own suit. Ugh.

Click to expand...

Good post.
I was so glad my tv remote has an off button. When I saw Jose's face I immediately went "click." Don't want to hear from him every again.
just my O

katydid23 said:

What is their purpose in bringing her to the stand? If I remember correctly, she has been very hard on Murray and has publicly criticized him for giving MJ propofol. She said she herself denied MJ that option.

Click to expand...

Cherny is just trying to establish that MJ has had sleep problems for 20 years or so. I guess he just wants to establish that whatever had been prescribed for him by whomever did not work.

Maybe we'll find out, according to some future witness, how MJ had found out about milk and had tried it with success. Was it the Gemnan MDs who first introduced him to it?

That's all I got. :waitasec:

CarolinaMoon said:

The fact that Walgren isn't doing much cross indicates that that he doesn't believe that the witness has much to offer to the defense.

Dr. Metzger, the rheumatologist, shows how a professional works. HE has notes of the phone call from MJ and can state the time to the minute.

It's quite ironic how the defense relies on his and Dr. Klein's medical records! Brings up a major problem with their own client. I hope Walgren asks about the kinds of records he keeps.

Click to expand...

Dr. Allan Lawrence Metzger MD practices rheumatology and internal medicine in West Hollywood, California. He graduated with an MD 43 years ago.

Dr. Metzger cited some medications he prescribed for Jackson, including the seizure medication klonopin and the anti-depressant trazadone.

Dr. Metzger didn't receive any feedback from MJ on the drugs he prescribed and I'm curious to know what seizure medication does.

katydid23 said:

I think that his problems with insomnia were possibly affected by his drug problems in the first place. I grew up in Southern California and have many friends in the music business, several who went on various tours with MJ as dancers or backup singers. It was well known that at one time, back in the day, BEFORE he had kids, he did a lot of drugs and he drank heavily. He did go to rehab and he cleaned up his act. However I am not going to assume that the only drugs he did anymore were for insomnia. I have known too many drug addicts who had insomnia BECAUSE they got high with drugs that kept them awake. For example, coming off of demerol reportedly gives one insomnia as a side effect. And doing certain drugs that would make him better able to sing and dance all day would give him insomnia. They do not have to be taken even during the time that you are suffering from insomnia either/ Just having a history of doing them at some point can throw off your sleep cycle enough to affect you for many months later. And the nurse today said he drank red bulls. That is not helpful if he wants to sleep at night.

I LOVE Michael but I am not going to give him a pass on everything he did. As guilty as Murray is, for setting up that IV and offering that deadly concoction, I have to blame Michael too. He knew better. He trusted the wrong doctor obviously. But Michael should have made sure there were full oxygen tanks and the proper emergency equipment available to him. he was too trusting, imo. That does not let Murray off the hook. I think he should be charged with an even higher crime than what he is on trial for.

Click to expand...

katydid, i really appreciate your thoughts in this post. I think it must have been difficult for you to express that you give a share of blame to Michael. But, I too have those same feelings.

As I wrote in another post, if Michael was totally convinced this was the one and only drug that would allow him to sleep, why wasn't he checking into a hospital every night where he could be in the presence of a full medical staff and emergency equipment for his safety and have this drug administered.

I think he didn't because he knew this would be forbidden by medical professionals and hospital officials.

This practice sounds ridicilous, doesn't it?

I've never had sleep problems so I cannot understand how it feels not to sleep. But, I know there are treatment centers for sleep problems and doctors who specialize in that disorder. Why couldn't Michael had gone that route instead of being treated by a doctor, who didn't specialize in sleep disorders anyway, hidden away in his own bedroom. Am I the only one who questions this behavior and finds it odd on Michael's part? Once this was revealed didn't others say "What the heck?"

I too am sad he is gone. This should not have happened. But, I don't see Michael Jackson as being a non participant. He wanted this treatment, which is a shame for all those he left behind.

just my O

azwriter said:

katydid, i really appreciate your thoughts in this post. I think it must have been difficult for you to express that you give a share of blame to Michael. But, I too have those same feelings.

As I wrote in another post, if Michael was totally convinced this was the one and only drug that would allow him to sleep, why wasn't he checking into a hospital every night where he could be in the presence of a full medical staff and emergency equipment for his safety and have this drug administered.

I think he didn't because he knew this would be forbidden by medical professionals and hospital officials.

This practice sounds ridicilous, doesn't it?

I've never had sleep problems so I cannot understand how it feels not to sleep. But, I know there are treatment centers for sleep problems and doctors who specialize in that disorder. Why couldn't Michael had gone that route instead of being treated by a doctor, who didn't specialize in sleep disorders anyway, hidden away in his own bedroom. Am I the only one who questions this behavior and finds it odd on Michael's part? Once this was revealed didn't others say "What the heck?"

I too am sad he is gone. This should not have happened. But, I don't see Michael Jackson as being a non participant. He wanted this treatment, which is a shame for all those he left behind.

just my O

Click to expand...

I agree. And that does NOT mean that Murray shouldn't be found guilty and lose his medical license and do some time. he is responsible for his major part in this. But he did not trick Michael into using this deadly drug. He may have tricked Michael into believing he had his back and was going to monitor him. I am sure michael did not think that his good buddy Dr Murray was going to be talking to his girlfriends instead of listening to see if Michael was still breathing properly.

If Murray was not so greedy he would have had the proper equipment available to him in case of a medical emergency.

Murray faces up to four years in prison and loss of his medical license if convicted, though a new California law could mean his sentence would be reduced to two years and be served in a county jail.

The defense is also expected to call AEG Live head Randy Phillips to testify. AEG Live was sponsoring what Jackson hoped would be a series of comeback concerts in London, and the defense contends Phillips put pressure on Jackson to be healthy and on time for tour rehearsals, lest the shows be cancelled.

CNN reports the trial is expected to go to the jury for deliberations at the end of this week.

http://www.thewrap.com/music/column...-propofol-expert-continues-live-feed?page=0,3

Bluesky#1 said:

Dr. Allan Lawrence Metzger MD practices rheumatology and internal medicine in West Hollywood, California. He graduated with an MD 43 years ago.

Dr. Metzger cited some medications he prescribed for Jackson, including the seizure medication klonopin and the anti-depressant trazadone.

Dr. Metzger didn't receive any feedback from MJ on the drugs he prescribed and I'm curious to know what seizure medication does.

Click to expand...

Klonopin (clonazepam) is one of the benzodiazepines, like ativan, valium, xanax, etc.
We used it a lot on the psych units for calming, sedating effects. I don't think I ever
gave it to a patient with a seizure disorder, however I am aware that it is used for that.

I'd imagine that it was used to help MJ relax... especially before going to sleep.

oceanblueeyes said:

Nurse Lee also said she never had any trouble with any of MJs veins. They were extremely small so she used a fine needle.

IMO

Click to expand...

Two of my friends have this problem -- they have little tiny veins, and when they have to give blood or a blood sample, the nurse uses a pediatric needle and gets the job done.

I have a feeling this nurse practitioner isn't happy testifying for the defense. As with Dr. Metzger, she apparently liked MJ very much.

I can't say I was ever a great fan (wrong generation), but I did admire his work. As for his private life, it's impossible to separate myth from reality, so I don't judge.

As for insomnia, I know what that is! From childhood I was a natural-born night owl. My mind works best then. Unfortunately, my profession dictated that I be a morning glory. I seldom had more than 4 hours of sleep a night. Now that I'm retired, I fight a constant battle with trying to be a morning glory. My sleep patterns are a total mess.

I have to wonder if MJ was a night owl and had a difficult time with daily practices. He needed to sleep when his mind was most active. Add in the pressure of having the concert series resting entirely on him and the adrenaline after a good day, I imagine nothing would bring him down enough to sleep.

Over the years, I've been prescribed safe dosages of a variety of medications to help me get to sleep. Nothing worked. I also have to say that I had to retire early, at 51, due to the fact that I could no longer function at my job the way I wanted to. I just couldn't keep going with the lack of sleep. I also tried meditation, teas, etc. None of them helped me either.

Based on the latest testimony, it seems to me that MJ was trying to avoid drugs which didn't help him in favor of natural medicine with the nurse practitioner. Proof of the pudding, IMHO, was the fact that he gave her a chance to get him to sleep and it failed him and the fact that he didn't give himself drugs without Dr. Murray to administer them to him.

peace9274 said:

Nurse Lee said, and it's been shown on the various news programs several times,
that MJ asked her if she would get and administer propofol for him.

She said she told MJ that she would NOT do that and told him that if he took it,
he may NEVER wake up again.

Click to expand...

I remember seeing Nurse Lee on TV on a talk show and she was talking about the propofol. I remember when I watched her she was so nervous that I wondered why. After a few shows she wasn't nervous anymore. She also said that MJ really, really wanted her to give him propofol. I remember that she was asked if he had ever had propofol before and she answered that he knew about it from somewhere.

azwriter said:

katydid, i really appreciate your thoughts in this post. I think it must have been difficult for you to express that you give a share of blame to Michael. But, I too have those same feelings.

As I wrote in another post, if Michael was totally convinced this was the one and only drug that would allow him to sleep, why wasn't he checking into a hospital every night where he could be in the presence of a full medical staff and emergency equipment for his safety and have this drug administered.

I think he didn't because he knew this would be forbidden by medical professionals and hospital officials.

This practice sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

I've never had sleep problems so I cannot understand how it feels not to sleep. But, I know there are treatment centers for sleep problems and doctors who specialize in that disorder. Why couldn't Michael had gone that route instead of being treated by a doctor, who didn't specialize in sleep disorders anyway, hidden away in his own bedroom. Am I the only one who questions this behavior and finds it odd on Michael's part? Once this was revealed didn't others say "What the heck?"

I too am sad he is gone. This should not have happened. But, I don't see Michael Jackson as being a non participant. He wanted this treatment, which is a shame for all those he left behind.

just my O

Click to expand...

BBM

Michael couldn't go into a hospital and receive this drug every night but through decades of insomnia he did find out somehow this worked for him. I would imagine he found that out about propofol when he either had to have a procedural sedation or a surgery of some type. Michael didn't even have privacy when he went out and in the gates to his home much less go to a hospital every night. The paparazzi would have had a field day and no telling what myth they would come up with.

As far has administering it in the home..neither MJ nor Murray broke any laws by doing it there. Propopol is not a controlled substance. No where does the FDA say it cannot be used in a home setting. Maybe that will be added now to the label.

It is ironic in a way now since MJs death there has been a study done using volunteer patients who suffer from severe insomnia. They were treated by using propofol and with great results. All 64 patients in the study were helped when given propofol. I imagine these studies will continue.

It really isn't the use of the propofol in the home setting that killed MJ on June 25th.

Why it happened and why Murray decided on that day to put his social life as first priority over continuously monitoring his patient will probably never be quite understood by most, imo.

Murray had enough there to maintain MJs life if he had only been there watching when he stopped breathing. We have no idea if the oxygen tank had oxygen in it when he began and Murray could have used it up trying to get oxygen back into MJ but by that time MJ was long dead and the attempt would be futile.

Every anesthesiologists expert that has testified said as long as oxygen was getting in to the lungs the patient will not go into respiratory failure. And he also had the ambu-bag right there at his disposal. Another way to flood his lungs with oxygen.

But those things can only work if the doctor sees the patient stop breathing and rushes to push oxygen into the lungs. That is why MJ died because his doctor was no where around when he went into distress.

IMO

EPfan said:

I remember seeing Nurse Lee on TV on a talk show and she was talking about the propofol. I remember when I watched her she was so nervous that I wondered why. After a few shows she wasn't nervous anymore. She also said that MJ really, really wanted her to give him propofol. I remember that she was asked if he had ever had propofol before and she answered that he knew about it from somewhere.

Click to expand...

I would think when someone first goes on national tv shows they are nervous. Its a totally different atmosphere from what NL has known I imagine although I never felt she looked nervous.

I really like Nurse Lee. She is a medical professional that takes her patient's needs very seriously. I bet she has a lot of patients that just adore her. Her demeanor is very loving, caring and kind, imo.

I don't remember her asking him about him taking propofol before but I do remember she said MJ told her he would be just fine because he would have a doctor monitoring him.

I think she is going to be a great witness for the state once they are able to cross examine her.

IMO

CarolinaMoon said:

I have a feeling this nurse practitioner isn't happy testifying for the defense. As with Dr. Metzger, she apparently liked MJ very much.

I can't say I was ever a great fan (wrong generation), but I did admire his work. As for his private life, it's impossible to separate myth from reality, so I don't judge.

As for insomnia, I know what that is! From childhood I was a natural-born night owl. My mind works best then. Unfortunately, my profession dictated that I be a morning glory. I seldom had more than 4 hours of sleep a night. Now that I'm retired, I fight a constant battle with trying to be a morning glory. My sleep patterns are a total mess.

I have to wonder if MJ was a night owl and had a difficult time with daily practices. He needed to sleep when his mind was most active. Add in the pressure of having the concert series resting entirely on him and the adrenaline after a good day, I imagine nothing would bring him down enough to sleep.

Over the years, I've been prescribed safe dosages of a variety of medications to help me get to sleep. Nothing worked. I also have to say that I had to retire early, at 51, due to the fact that I could no longer function at my job the way I wanted to. I just couldn't keep going with the lack of sleep. I also tried meditation, teas, etc. None of them helped me either.

Based on the latest testimony, it seems to me that MJ was trying to avoid drugs which didn't help him in favor of natural medicine with the nurse practitioner. Proof of the pudding, IMHO, was the fact that he gave her a chance to get him to sleep and it failed him and the fact that he didn't give himself drugs without Dr. Murray to administer them to him.

Click to expand...

I think you are right. Nurse Lee said that Michael was the most humble man she has ever known and he and his children were so loving. The kids even bought her a birthday present. lol Once again it seems Michael and his children touched the hearts of many.

She also said she never saw any signs of drug use and she came at different times from early morning to later at night.

Strange NL said she never had one problem with MJs veins. She said he had tiny veins and she knew what to do for people who do (which I am one of those people) who sure could have used someone like NL at times when I have had to have an IV or blood tests.:furious::crazy:

MJ did seem to be willing to try anything new to help his insomnia problem.

I can see why he told her he simply didn't have the time to do the sleep study since the tour preparation was so time consuming. Not a good time when having so much to deal with.

I know I must get at least 8 hours of sleep to even be able to function properly. My heart goes out to those that struggle with lack of sleep and I know many like MJ and they have done everything in the world trying it make it better including sleep study and nothing works. Some I know remain awake for 2-3 days at a time. I cannot begin to fathom how tired that would make them feel.

So I have the utmost compassion with anyone who struggles with insomnia.

IMO

borndem said:

But apparently the good doctor hasn't gotten paid for all his longs nights just yet. A pity, that. Now to whom will CM send the bill? Ain't nobody happy here, I guess.

Click to expand...

The fact Conrad Murray wasn’t paid for nearly 3 months is an important issue in this case imo. Alot of disgruntled employees kill their employers.

Conrad Murray wasn’t expecting to increase his financial woes when he was hired personally by “The King of Pop” in April 2009 and not receiving a regular paycheck could have caused CM to become hostile towards MJ.

When a person can't resolve problems appropriately and they're feeling frustrated, they often have violent outbursts and attack others.

Dr. Murray had a lot of people depending on him for money and it's possible people began calling him when his income was withheld from him.

CM may have decided to rectify his problem by withholding proper medical care to MJ until he received a paycheck.

MJ was a difficult patient to take care of everyday because he worried constantly and his unrealistic demands put others at risk.

peace9274 said:

Klonopin (clonazepam) is one of the benzodiazepines, like ativan, valium, xanax, etc.
We used it a lot on the psych units for calming, sedating effects. I don't think I ever
gave it to a patient with a seizure disorder, however I am aware that it is used for that.

I'd imagine that it was used to help MJ relax... especially before going to sleep.

Click to expand...

Klonopin (clonazepam) affects chemicals in the brain that may become unbalanced and cause anxiety.

Klonopin is used to treat seizure disorders or panic disorder.

Various drugs can cause seizures if too much is taken. Most commonly, seizure disorders begin in early childhood or in late adulthood.

Conditions that irritate the brain—such as injuries, certain drugs, sleep deprivation, infections, fever—or that deprive the brain of oxygen or fuel—such as abnormal heart rhythms, a low level of oxygen in the blood, or a very low level of sugar in the blood—can trigger a single seizure whether a person has a seizure disorder or not.

Seizures may result when the brain's electrical activity is disrupted.

Doctors suspect the diagnosis based on symptoms, but imaging of the brain, blood tests, and electroencephalography (to record the brain's electrical activity) are usually needed to identify the cause.

http://www.drugs.com/klonopin.html

http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/br...ders/seizure_disorders/seizure_disorders.html

Regarding the use of propofol to sleep: I recall seeing a piece on 20/20 or one of those shows, where an anesthesiologist who now lives in Vermont or somewhere back there was interviewed. He claims to have given it to MJ while MJ was on tour in Europe. So, he may have been the one who introduced MJ to the drug. IIRC the guy had his own license yanked for other reasons (surprise!).

As far as I am concerned, while MJ's participation in all of this may make him a less sympathetic victim, he is still a victim and Murray is responsible for his death. MJ could have just gotten his hands on the propofol and the IV drip equipment and self administered this stuff, but he didn't. He hired Murray to administer it and monitor him. Of course, a jury may not see it this way, but that's the way I view the evidence.

BTW, I heard one of the TV talking heads yesterday (on the satellite radio, so I don't know who it was) refer to Chernoff as "Turn Off Chernoff". LOL.

oceanblueeyes said:

BBM

Michael couldn't go into a hospital and receive this drug every night but through decades of insomnia he did find out somehow this worked for him. I would imagine he found that out about propofol when he either had to have a procedural sedation or a surgery of some type. Michael didn't even have privacy when he went out and in the gates to his home much less go to a hospital every night. The paparazzi would have had a field day and no telling what myth they would come up with.

As far has administering it in the home..neither MJ nor Murray broke any laws by doing it there. Propopol is not a controlled substance. No where does the FDA say it cannot be used in a home setting. Maybe that will be added now to the label.

It is ironic in a way now since MJs death there has been a study done using volunteer patients who suffer from severe insomnia. They were treated by using propofol and with great results. All 64 patients in the study were helped when given propofol. I imagine these studies will continue.

It really isn't the use of the propofol in the home setting that killed MJ on June 25th.

Why it happened and why Murray decided on that day to put his social life as first priority over continuously monitoring his patient will probably never be quite understood by most, imo.

Murray had enough there to maintain MJs life if he had only been there watching when he stopped breathing. We have no idea if the oxygen tank had oxygen in it when he began and Murray could have used it up trying to get oxygen back into MJ but by that time MJ was long dead and the attempt would be futile.

Every anesthesiologists expert that has testified said as long as oxygen was getting in to the lungs the patient will not go into respiratory failure. And he also had the ambu-bag right there at his disposal. Another way to flood his lungs with oxygen.

But those things can only work if the doctor sees the patient stop breathing and rushes to push oxygen into the lungs. That is why MJ died because his doctor was no where around when he went into distress.

IMO

Click to expand...

I agree with you. It's not the use of propofol, it's the manner in which it was given without the necessary emergency equipment, and not monitoring him properly. And the fact that Conrad Murray was not trained to administer anesthesia.

I believe that it was never designed to be used as a treatment for insomnia, it was intended for use in a hospital setting ONLY... thus not being labeled a controlled drug. It is anesthesia, which is different than an ordinary sedative.

I hope the FDA is paying attention and will work to change the laws before some other celebrity falls victim to it. Celebrities seem to think the rules and laws don't apply to them.

Bluesky#1 said:

The fact Conrad Murray wasn’t paid for nearly 3 months is an important issue in this case imo. Alot of disgruntled employees kill their employers.

Conrad Murray wasn’t expecting to increase his financial woes when he was hired personally by “The King of Pop” in April 2009 and not receiving a regular paycheck could have caused CM to become hostile towards MJ.

When a person can't resolve problems appropriately and they're feeling frustrated, they often have violent outbursts and attack others.

Dr. Murray had a lot of people depending on him for money and it's possible people began calling him when his income was withheld from him.

CM may have decided to rectify his problem by withholding proper medical care to MJ until he received a paycheck.

MJ was a difficult patient to take care of everyday because he worried constantly and his unrealistic demands put others at risk.

Click to expand...

Are you saying CM killed MJ on purpose?

CM was negotiating with AEG......not MJ. That is when he told them he wanted 5 million dollars for his services.

It dragged on........he was wanting all of this medical equipment but would not tell AEG why he wanted them.

He made several amendments to the contract. 1. He did not want the checks made payable to him personally. He wanted them to be put into a 'business' account instead.

Once they refused to pay him the amount he wanted then they told him he would have to get with MJ on the amount and that is when the 5 million changed to 1 million more or less over the life of the contract.

He was still sending emails to AEG on the morning MJ died and MJ had never signed his name agreeing to pay him this amount. So now since he has killed MJ, AEG is refusing to pay him. Imo, that would be like rewarding bad behavior.

What I find ironic is the AEG staff contacted Murray about their suspicious about MJ that he may be taking something. Little did they know they were talking directly to the wolf guarding the hen house the entire time.

IMO